36.5/40.6 Persistent arrows pattern

[Chasing Rainbows]

Hi. I am a long time lurker.

My diamond has a CA 36.5 and PA 40.6. I've probably searched all the threads regarding these proportions and found several cases where these proportions work. I understand my diamond lacks brilliance but I don't understand why I always see the dark arrows pattern in my diamond? The arrows on the table usually look dark but sometimes it's peachy like it's reflecting my skin. I tried putting a toilet paper in front of my diamond and the table where the arrows pattern are goes white.

When viewing my diamond in the sun, I can still see the dark arrow pattern but it looks like it's a little see through in the table area. My setting is 18K yellow gold and I think the yellow gold from under the setting is visible when I look straight down at my diamond.

This is my second diamond, I briefly owned a stone that had a CAPA of 34/41.4. I returned the stone back to the jeweler after a week because although it was very brilliant, I constantly saw a dark black center. The upgrade/exchange was a long and stressful time. The jeweler believed triple excellent cuts were the best of the best and couldn't/wouldn't find me options with more ideal proportions but I was tied up to the jeweler at that point so I settled on this diamond. It was either this one or steep deeps that's mentioned a lot here. I chose this diamond because from studying day and night for weeks here, the proportions promised a lively stone with colored light return that lacked in the first stone. What I didn't understand at the time was that this stone would lack the brilliance I liked in the first stone. I misunderstood and thought that the first stone was so bright because it was a D color so I chose a D color again for the upgrade. I understand now that brilliance has nothing to do with color. Anyways, I'm over the drama with the jeweler. I just want to understand my diamond better.

My diamond is indeed lively and returns colored light in a lot of my day to day lighting that I live in. My stone is colorful but when the arrows are not returning colored light, I can almost always see dark or peachy arrows on the table. I'm assuming the arrows are reflecting too much of the background and has obstruction issues? My diamond rarely looks all white because I can always see the arrows on the table. Especially when I'm outside during the daytime and on overcast days is when the black arrows look the most pronounced. I'm a stay at home mom and during the day when I'm home and sitting next to the window is one of the rare times when the arrows pattern look silvery.

Can the setting improve the issue? My stone is set in a raised 4 prong 18K yellow gold cathedral setting with the shoulders attached to a yellow gold bar on the middle of the pavilion. Attached is the GIA certificate. Please help me. Thank you.

 

[musicloveranthony]

Sounds like you might be describing under the table leakage. Does it look like there's a donut under the table?

 

[Karl_K]

not leakage.
What your describing is obstruction of the mains or arrows as they are called here.
It will vary greatly with distance.
Look at the diamond further away, 1/2 to full arm length, and see if that changes your perception of it.
Let us know and we can advise from there.

 

[Karl_K]

Also do you have any images you can share?

 

[Chasing Rainbows]

Sounds like you might be describing under the table leakage. Does it look like there's a donut under the table?

Donut? Hm..not sure sorry.

 

[Chasing Rainbows]

What your describing is obstruction of the mains or arrows as they are called here.not leakage.
It will vary greatly with distance.
Look at the diamond further away, 1/2 to full arm length, and see if that changes your perception of it.
Let us know and we can advise from there.

It varies with lighting I think. On overcast days like how it is here a lot lately in California, the arrows are black and pronounced even at full arms length and in most angles. In all other lighting, the arrows look more thinner? at further distance. It looks like the arrows on the table aren't returning any light..if that makes sense.

I tried uploading some videos but it's not allowing me so here are some pictures although they aren't any good.

1. Not so good magnified picture of my diamond. Arrows are always visible just varies in shade.





2. This is how my diamond usually looks when I look down at my ring. Depending on the lighting it will look peachy. At first I enjoyed seeing the arrows all the time but now I think it affects how I view brilliance.




3. Picture in my living room. I have shakey hands so I have trouble taking pictures of my ring. It's not a good picture of what I'm trying to explain but just posting any picture to see if it helps.




4. Sometimes when I have my back to the sun in my backyard, my diamond can look beautiful like this.





Sorry if these pictures aren't any help. Thank you.

 

[MrsBlue]

Your set is very pretty! I love rings with tapered shoulders and yours looks lovely on your hand.

I'll leave the technical analysis to others but to my eyes, it's a beautiful ring.

 

[lovedogs]

I think you are reacting to the reflection of the arrows themselves (e.g. that the arrows look "dark" or "black" in most lights). Is that right?

If yes, you'll see arrows in basically all well cut diamonds with good proportions (of course only round h&a style stones, not other shapes or cuts).

 

[oncrutchesrightnow]

Is the dull area always in the 10 o’clock position? Looks like there is some milkyness. Grading report says “a cloud is not shown.” Even though the grade is VS1, maybe that’s the issue? Maybe naturally occurring stria?

 

[Karl_K]

Its showing dark arrows at full arm length its over reacting to obstruction.
That combo if the numbers were spot on should not be that way.
gia gross rounding covering up more obstructive numbers is one likely explanation but its a bit of an extreme case.
@Garry H (Cut Nut) @John Pollard

 

[Chasing Rainbows]

Your set is very pretty! I love rings with tapered shoulders and yours looks lovely on your hand.

I'll leave the technical analysis to others but to my eyes, it's a beautiful ring.

Thank you

 

[Chasing Rainbows]

I think you are reacting to the reflection of the arrows themselves (e.g. that the arrows look "dark" or "black" in most lights). Is that right?

If yes, you'll see arrows in basically all well cut diamonds with good proportions (of course only round h&a style stones, not other shapes or cuts).

Yes, I can see arrows in most lights. It can look clear,grey,peach or black but they are always visible.
That's reassuring to know although I'm not sure if my diamond is considered well cut. Thank you.

 

[Chasing Rainbows]

Is the dull area always in the 10 o’clock position? Looks like there is some milkyness. Grading report says “a cloud is not shown.” Even though the grade is VS1, maybe that’s the issue? Maybe naturally occurring stria?

No there is no dullness or milkyness in my diamond I am 100% sure of that. It's really clear. Thank you.

 

[Chasing Rainbows]

Its showing dark arrows at full arm length its over reacting to obstruction.
That combo if the numbers were spot on should not be tha way.
gia gross rounding covering up more obstructive numbers is one likely explanation but its a bit of an extreme case.
@Garry H (Cut Nut) @John Pollard

Yes I think you've told me what I've been feeling all along. My husband thinks that the setting has something to do with it too. He thinks if the setting/culet is more enclosed the light will bounce around inside the setting and thus help make the diamond look more brighter so I'm considering changing the setting. I'm not sure if this will help with obstruction issues. Thank you for your time to explain I greatly appreciate it.

 

[lovedogs]

I don't think changing the setting will accomplish what you want, to be honest

 

[Karl_K]

I don't think changing the setting will accomplish what you want, to be honest

correct, the setting has no effect on the reaction to obstruction.

 

[John Pollard]

Interesting. At full arm's length the pavilion mains (arrows) should not be so dark as they become close-up - unless there is something dark, and above, in the environment for them to reflect.

 

[Chasing Rainbows]

Interesting. At full arm's length the pavilion mains (arrows) should not be so dark as they become close-up - unless there is something dark, and above, in the environment for them to reflect.

I'll define some examples where/how I view my ring at "full arms length" and let me know if something sounds wrong.

1. When outdoors and I'm trying to view my ring in a non obvious way, I'll flip my hand up as I'm walking or standing. Arrows will always be visible when I look at my ring outside. It won't always look dark but it's definitely not silvery as people mention a lot here. Maybe grey or clear/dark? I rarely see my diamond look all white without visibile arrows when looking straight on. At an angle when I'm not looking at the table, it will appear all white. Could it be because the proportions lack brilliance or does this happen to super ideal cuts as well as mentioned by a poster above?

2. On overcast days when I'm at the park with my kids and I have my arms stretched out in front of me while I'm trying to help my kids up at the playground, I will glance at my ring and there the arrows will look black and so pronounced I feel kind of embarrassed.

3. When I'm sitting in the shade outside and I have my hands on my knees where I can flip my hand up towards me where I can view my ring straight on.

4. I went outside in my backyard this morning and stretched out my arms in front of me to see my diamond and while the diamond looked really white and crisp, I can still make out the arrows although they appear to look more thin really thin at further distance.




When I look at my ring at home during the day where there's some backlight like when my body is facing towards the sun/light, my diamond will look all white and I can see the whole arrow reflection up to the arrow heads light up white. Really beautiful.

My diamond is firey and beautiful nonetheless so I'm happy with the trade off for the time being. I will do better though when I upgrade in the near future.

 

[yssie]

I'm trying to make sure I understand the concern here.
@MrsCC - you don't want to see black arrows, correct?
Is it the presence of any black that you don't like, or is it the fact that there's a clear pattern of black (the 8 arrows that show up looking kind of like a star)?
Meaning... If the black pattern was random, would you enjoy seeing some black and some white?
You want to keep the round shape?

A crisp and clear and dark arrow pattern is something that many PSers actively look for in a modern round brilliant, yes. But that doesn't really matter if you don't care for the look.

FWIW the arrows in my stone are easily visible at arms' length as well, if I'm oriented in certain ways relative to environment lighting. Similar proportions to your stone.

 

[yssie]

Examples.

Edit - okay, I can't link directly to either stone, JA's got the links redirecting to the homepage. Do this instead:

@MrsCC If this is what you saw when you look at your stone, would you enjoy it?
https://www.jamesallen.com/loose-diamonds/
Search (magnifying glass icon, top right) for 13383644
Click on this stone and watch the video:


What about this?
https://www.jamesallen.com/loose-diamonds/
Search for 12645149
Click on this stone and watch the video:


(For anyone else - please note that I'm not recommending either stone, just using them as examples).

 

[Chasing Rainbows]

I'm trying to make sure I understand the concern here.
@MrsCC - you don't want to see black arrows, correct?
Is it the presence of any black that you don't like, or is it the fact that there's a clear pattern of black (the 8 arrows that show up looking kind of like a star)?
Meaning... If the black pattern was random, would you enjoy seeing some black and some white?
You want to keep the round shape?

A crisp and clear and dark arrow pattern is something that many PSers actively look for in a modern round brilliant, yes. But that doesn't matter if you don't care for the look.

FWIW the arrows in my stone are easily visible at arms' length as well, if I'm oriented in certain ways relative to environment lighting. Similar proportions to your stone.

Hi Yssie. I'm glad to see you on my post. You and some other PSers are one of the reasons why I found hope in this diamond. TMI but the story with my jewler is long and was very stressful at the time. They are a custom only jeweler that has a no return exchange or trade in policy that we weren’t aware of at the time. My husband and I did not know that companys offer such phenomenal policies. Fortunately though, they exchanged my first diamond for an upgrade after a week after I purchased but they didn't give me better options for the upgrade and I saw you deliberately chose these proportions so I hoped it would turn out as good as yours. I am happy that my diamond returns colored light in my normal day to day living like when I'm just sitting on my sofa during the day with just natural sunlight and my diamond looks like a rainbow. Nothing like what I experienced with my first diamond that was really bright, no visible arrows but didn't sparkle unless I went to the store.

It's not that I dislike seeing the arrows..I wasn't sure what to think of them to see them all the time. Is it extreme, good or bad? I searched the threads here and found many people that said they wouldn't want to see the arrows all the time and that they weren't visible most of the time. It would be like 25% of the time they would see the arrows and most of the time it would look silvery. I understand what it means where the arrows look silvery but I see my arrows like 90% of the time without a camera. Thank you for reassuring me somewhat.

 

[Chasing Rainbows]

Examples.

Edit - okay, I can't link directly to either stone, JA's got the links redirecting to the homepage. Do this instead:

@MrsCC If this is what you saw when you look at your stone, would you enjoy it?
https://www.jamesallen.com/loose-diamonds/
Search (magnifying glass icon, top right) for 13383644
Click on this stone and watch the video:


What about this?
https://www.jamesallen.com/loose-diamonds/
Search for 12645149
Click on this stone and watch the video:


(For anyone else - please note that I'm not recommending either stone, just using them as examples).

I get what your saying or I think I don't know. I saw pictures of your ring in a recent post. I wouldn't mind it if my ring looked all white like that with no visible dark arrows most of the time. I just know my diamond rarely looks that way and it's very hard to take pictures with no visible dark arrows. However I will appreciate it more now.

 

[diamondseeker2006]

Your diamond looks fine. It’s going to reflect color when something is facing it. In any event, since you said you plan to upgrade again, come here before you start deciding on a diamond. Show us the stones and grading reports before you commit to a stone. That way we can help you find the best stone available. There’s not much we can do after the fact.

 

[Chasing Rainbows]

Your diamond looks fine. It’s going to reflect color when something is facing it. In any event, since you said you plan to upgrade again, come here before you start deciding on a diamond. Show us the stones and grading reports before you commit to a stone. That way we can help you find the best stone available. There’s not much we can do after the fact.

Ok. Thank you.

 

[yssie]

It's not that I dislike seeing the arrows..I wasn't sure what to think of them to see them all the time. Is it extreme, good or bad? I searched the threads here and found many people that said they wouldn't want to see the arrows all the time and that they weren't visible most of the time. It would be like 25% of the time they would see the arrows and most of the time it would look silvery. I understand what it means where the arrows look silvery but I see my arrows like 90% of the time without a camera. Thank you for reassuring me somewhat.

So imagine this… You’ve got a little triangular mirror.

You put it flat on a table face-up. When you lean over it, you see yourself. If you sway from side to side a bit - you still see yourself. If you sway from side to side a lot, then at the extremes of your tilt - you can’t see yourself in the mirror any more.

Now you keep standing exactly as you are, but put a pen under one edge of the mirror so that it’s tilted a bit. It’s not flat on the table any more. If you sway from side to side a little bit you can see yourself. If you sway more you stop seeing yourself… Actually, you stop seeing yourself earlier (with less sway) than when the mirror was flat on the table. Right?

Next - remove the pen and stick a thick textbook under that edge instead. Now the mirror is tilted even more. Now, if you sway just a touch, yup, you can still see yourself, but if you sway even a bit more you’ll stop seeing yourself. You stop seeing yourself wayyy earlier (with much less sway) than when the mirror was flat on the table!

Pretend that that triangular mirror isn’t reflecting you. It just turns black when you can see yourself in it and white when you can’t. And clone it seven times, and arrange all eight mirrors in a circle, and you’ve just emulated your diamond’s pavilion.

Your pavilion is a bit shallow. Just like mine. More shallow than most well-cut stones. More shallow than the H&A or near-H&A stones that many PSers own. It’s more like the mirror that’s flat on the table - it’s angled less than the scenario with the textbook under one edge (a steeper pavilion). So you can see yourself (remember that’s just the mirror/facet turning black now) when youre right in front of it, and even when you sway quite a bit (or when you hold still and you twist and turn your ring on your finger). If your pavilion was a bit steeper, more like the mirror with the thick textbook under one edge, then you’d stop seeing yourself reflected (you’d stop seeing the facet turn black) as soon as the ring tilts away from you just a bit.

^^ Story of why other PSers say that they don’t see those black arrows much whereas you feel like you see them quite a bit. Just a different personality; neither flavour is objectively better than the other.

 

[AllAboardTheBlingTrain]

So imagine this… You’ve got a little triangular mirror.

You put it flat on a table face-up. When you lean over it, you see yourself. If you sway from side to side a bit - you still see yourself. If you sway from side to side a lot, then at the extremes of your tilt - you can’t see yourself in the mirror any more.

Now you keep standing exactly as you are, but put a pen under one edge of the mirror so that it’s tilted a bit. It’s not flat on the table any more. If you sway from side to side a little bit you can see yourself. If you sway more you stop seeing yourself… Actually, you stop seeing yourself earlier (with less sway) than when the mirror was flat on the table. Right?

Next - remove the pen and stick a thick textbook under that edge instead. Now the mirror is tilted even more. Now, if you sway just a touch, yup, you can still see yourself, but if you sway even a bit more you’ll stop seeing yourself. You stop seeing yourself wayyy earlier (with much less sway) than when the mirror was flat on the table!

Pretend that that triangular mirror isn’t reflecting you. It just turns black when you can see yourself in it and white when you can’t. And clone it seven times, and arrange all eight mirrors in a circle, and you’ve just emulated your diamond’s pavilion.

Your pavilion is a bit shallow. Just like mine. More shallow than most well-cut stones. More shallow than the H&A or near-H&A stones that many PSers own. It’s more like the mirror that’s flat on the table - it’s angled less than the scenario with the textbook under one edge (a steeper pavilion). So you can see yourself (remember that’s just the mirror/facet turning black now) when youre right in front of it, and even when you sway quite a bit (or when you hold still and you twist and turn your ring on your finger). If your pavilion was a bit steeper, more like the mirror with the thick textbook under one edge, then you’d stop seeing yourself reflected (you’d stop seeing the facet turn black) as soon as the ring tilts away from you just a bit.

^^ Story of why other PSers say that they don’t see those black arrows much whereas you feel like you see them quite a bit. Just a different personality; neither flavour is objectively better than the other.

@yssie you are a WEALTH of information! It just clicked in my head so well right now. I hope you’re an educator of some kind in your day job because you really should be!!

I also have a follow up question or two for understanding: does this mean that if you go to the other extreme (like 33/41, which should still be fine in terms of not being overly leaky or obstructed for the most part, right?) you’re less likely to see dark black arrows unless you’re looking at it dead on and up close (all else, like T and LH being equal) because of the steeper pav angle?

also, why are you more likely to see coloured flashes in something like 36.5/40.6, as opposed to 33/41? Does the steeper crown allow more refraction, while the shallow 33 means that light is more likely to exit without bouncing around as much?

edit: sorry if this is off-topic! But I thought it might help newbs and people like me (who have been around for a while but still don’t understand the science, physics was my worst subject in school) to understand what we like, what are the trade offs, and what proportions to choose; even though they’re all just different flavours of “good”

 

[yssie]

if you go to the other extreme (like 33/41, which should still be fine in terms of not being overly leaky or obstructed for the most part, right?) you’re less likely to see dark black arrows unless you’re looking at it dead on and up close (all else, like T and LH being equal) because of the steeper pav angle?

Looking at it dead on -
Exact angles of the other extreme would depend on table and star, but yeah, the steeper the pavilion mains (lower half facets are steeper than the mains) the more “dead on face-up” you’ve got to be to see that display of all eight black arrows. At some point you tip over into #toosteep and the mains don’t all obstruct at once, so even when you’re “dead on face-up” you see four black arrows on one side and four white arrows on the other side… Keep making pav steeper and you get to a point where none of the arrows obstruct even when you’re “dead on face-up”. That’s what’s happening in the JA stone (SKU 12645149) I posted earlier.

Looking at it from up close -
Subtend angle. Close one eye and put your fingertip right up close to the other eye and you can block the whole moon out. Move your hand further away and now you’re only blocking half the moon… The diamond is your one eyeball, and your head/body is the fingertip. The closer you are to the diamond, the more you block out whatever’s behind you, from the diamond’s perspective. And since you’re a physical presence you’re creating a shadow that’s darker than the open space behind you, so the more you loom over your diamond the more black the diamond shows (the more it obstructs).

also, why are you more likely to see coloured flashes in something like 36.5/40.6, as opposed to 33/41? Does the steeper crown allow more refraction, while the shallow 33 means that light is more likely to exit without bouncing around as much?

I would say it’s more keeping outbound separated than anything else. The more opportunity you give output dispersions to go their own ways and not interfere with each other, the more likely a human pupil some distance away is to catch one portion (one wavelength) of one dispersion emission. And you can increase this opportunity by increasing the angular differential between table and crown (steeper crown) and equalizing the surface area of angled facets (smaller table).

I could argue with myself on details. But that’s one perspective.

 

[AllAboardTheBlingTrain]

Looking at it dead on -
Exact angles of the other extreme would depend on table and star, but yeah, the steeper the pavilion mains (lower half facets are steeper than the mains) the more “dead on face-up” you’ve got to be to see that display of all eight black arrows. At some point you tip over into #toosteep and the mains don’t all obstruct at once, so even when you’re “dead on face-up” you see four black arrows on one side and four white arrows on the other side… Keep making pav steeper and you get to a point where none of the arrows obstruct even when you’re “dead on face-up”. That’s what’s happening in the JA stone (SKU 12645149) I posted earlier.

Looking at it from up close -
Subtend angle. Close one eye and put your fingertip right up close to the other eye and you can block the whole moon out. Move your hand further away and now you’re only blocking half the moon… The diamond is your one eyeball, and your head/body is the fingertip. The closer you are to the diamond, the more you block out whatever’s behind you, from the diamond’s perspective. And since you’re a physical presence you’re creating a shadow that’s darker than the open space behind you, so the more you loom over your diamond the more black the diamond shows (the more it obstructs).



I would say it’s more keeping outbound separated than anything else. The more opportunity you give output dispersions to go their own ways and not interfere with each other, the more likely a human pupil some distance away is to catch one portion (one wavelength) of one dispersion emission. And you can increase this opportunity by increasing the angular differential between table and crown (steeper crown) and equalizing the surface area of angled facets (smaller table).

I could argue with myself on details. But that’s one perspective.

This helped so much, thank you!

 

[Chasing Rainbows]

So imagine this… You’ve got a little triangular mirror.

You put it flat on a table face-up. When you lean over it, you see yourself. If you sway from side to side a bit - you still see yourself. If you sway from side to side a lot, then at the extremes of your tilt - you can’t see yourself in the mirror any more.

Now you keep standing exactly as you are, but put a pen under one edge of the mirror so that it’s tilted a bit. It’s not flat on the table any more. If you sway from side to side a little bit you can see yourself. If you sway more you stop seeing yourself… Actually, you stop seeing yourself earlier (with less sway) than when the mirror was flat on the table. Right?

Next - remove the pen and stick a thick textbook under that edge instead. Now the mirror is tilted even more. Now, if you sway just a touch, yup, you can still see yourself, but if you sway even a bit more you’ll stop seeing yourself. You stop seeing yourself wayyy earlier (with much less sway) than when the mirror was flat on the table!

Pretend that that triangular mirror isn’t reflecting you. It just turns black when you can see yourself in it and white when you can’t. And clone it seven times, and arrange all eight mirrors in a circle, and you’ve just emulated your diamond’s pavilion.

Your pavilion is a bit shallow. Just like mine. More shallow than most well-cut stones. More shallow than the H&A or near-H&A stones that many PSers own. It’s more like the mirror that’s flat on the table - it’s angled less than the scenario with the textbook under one edge (a steeper pavilion). So you can see yourself (remember that’s just the mirror/facet turning black now) when youre right in front of it, and even when you sway quite a bit (or when you hold still and you twist and turn your ring on your finger). If your pavilion was a bit steeper, more like the mirror with the thick textbook under one edge, then you’d stop seeing yourself reflected (you’d stop seeing the facet turn black) as soon as the ring tilts away from you just a bit.

^^ Story of why other PSers say that they don’t see those black arrows much whereas you feel like you see them quite a bit. Just a different personality; neither flavour is objectively better than the other.

Hmm..OMG I see I totally understand now. To be honest, I was still confused until you told me this story. I regretted posting but now I'm so glad I posted and got a clear understanding of why they're there. I finally feel like I got to the bottom of my concerns. I've been beating myself up for not having a super ideal cut diamond but now that I understand my diamond better, I've started to enjoy and appreciate my diamond more mind clean. Your story did make me start to view them differently, from why are you there to I see why you're there. Thank you Yssie for the detailed and as the above poster said, wealth of information!

 

[Chasing Rainbows]

@yssie you are a WEALTH of information! It just clicked in my head so well right now. I hope you’re an educator of some kind in your day job because you really should be!!

I also have a follow up question or two for understanding: does this mean that if you go to the other extreme (like 33/41, which should still be fine in terms of not being overly leaky or obstructed for the most part, right?) you’re less likely to see dark black arrows unless you’re looking at it dead on and up close (all else, like T and LH being equal) because of the steeper pav angle?

also, why are you more likely to see coloured flashes in something like 36.5/40.6, as opposed to 33/41? Does the steeper crown allow more refraction, while the shallow 33 means that light is more likely to exit without bouncing around as much?

edit: sorry if this is off-topic! But I thought it might help newbs and people like me (who have been around for a while but still don’t understand the science, physics was my worst subject in school) to understand what we like, what are the trade offs, and what proportions to choose; even though they’re all just different flavours of “good”

I'm not sure if this is even relevant to what your wrote but I noticed from a real life perspective that my arrows can be two faced. In some lighting the dark arrows I was just staring at, when I move my hand around, up an down, side to side, the place where the arrows just were, will now start to shoot out colored flashes of light in the exact same place where the arrows just were. It made me wonder if there was a connection/relationship there and if it could be a possibility that I was likely seeing more colored flashes in that area in my current diamond. Diamond's are so interesting and complex to understand even from studying a lot here but maybe that's why they're so beautiful.