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Blue824

Blue824

Brilliant_Rock
Joined
Dec 15, 2004
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Sorry, don''t mean to open a can of worms for a heated conversation, because I know people have strong opinions on things like this, but I just had to ask...did anyone see 60 minutes Sunday? I did not, but I heard about it on my drive in to work Monday morning, and I had to look up the story and read more about it...

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/05/20/60minutes/main696975.shtml

That link leads to what is pretty much a transcript of everything on the show, at least from the clips I heard.

I''ll admit that I don''t know much about these programs, and I see nothing wrong with promoting abstinence...but just from this article, can''t this be handled differently? Like, by presenting students with all the information to make an educated choice? Balanced information instead of skewed? That''s what they did in my schools, and I turned out just fine, I swear!
 
Having lost my brother to AIDS, all I can say is talk to your kids and educate them. My children know probably more than they want to know about safe sex, sexually transmitted diseases and the like. It was the hardest thing I ever had to face to see my brother die such a horrible death.
 
I think ultimately it is up to individual parents to decide what they want to teach their children and the values that they instill will have a much more profound and longer lasting effect than any school or evangelist couild hope to have. I think abstinence programs definitely have their place, because they provide a powerful alternative to the type of message that was conveyed to me when I was attending high school. The norm when I was in high school was to push the safe sex and planned parenthood type programs with the assumption that students were going to have sex no matter what, however erroneous that assumption might prove to be. However, going to the other extreme would also be bad, if the abstinence programs replaced the existing sex education programs and denied valuable information to students.

I do take exception to this specific abstinence program Silver Ring Thing however. I think it really sends the wrong message to kids:

"You're are not a virgin, right?" Bradley asks Rick.

"That's right," says Rick. "It's a second chance."

To me your virginity represents your innocence of youth and is a precious gift that you can give away only once. Once it is gone you can't turn back the clock and be a born again virgin. Part of growing up is taking responsibility for your previous actions and if you believe them to be wrong, then change your lifestyle to fit your new moral philosophy. I would have no problem if they marketed this as a vow of chastity - you acknowledge that you probably weren't ready to have sex, and vow to not have sex until marriage. Trying to erase the past and say you are a virgin again seems a little deceitful and hypocritical. Just my thoughts.
 
Date: 5/24/2005 12:39:24 AM
Author: Islandia


''You''re are not a virgin, right?'' Bradley asks Rick.


''That''s right,'' says Rick. ''It''s a second chance.''

To me your virginity represents your innocence of youth and is a precious gift that you can give away only once. Once it is gone you can''t turn back the clock and be a born again virgin. Part of growing up is taking responsibility for your previous actions and if you believe them to be wrong, then change your lifestyle to fit your new moral philosophy. I would have no problem if they marketed this as a vow of chastity - you acknowledge that you probably weren''t ready to have sex, and vow to not have sex until marriage. Trying to erase the past and say you are a virgin again seems a little deceitful and hypocritical. Just my thoughts.
Click to expand...
agree....if that was true,everybody on earth is still a virgin.
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Parents really need to educate their children wisely when it comes to sex education. I was absolutely horrified (and embarrassed as a Brit) to read this is a UK newspaper this week....
http://www.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,30100-13354131,00.html

How on earth a mother can blame the government for her three daughters (aged 12, 14 and 16) getting pregnant is beyond me. Has she never heard of parent responsibility? I''m still seething at the thought of taxpayers putting a roof over their heads and paying for them to live comfortably. It''s not right and it''s morally wrong for them to receive benefits when what they did (at aged 12 and 14) was classed as illegal in the UK
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Providing them with benefits and a house merely encourages other girls to do the same. I can just see it in the classroom, "hey, get preganant and you''ll get a house!" That''s the way the UK is. I remember a girl who lived locally to me when I lived in the UK and she had a baby out of wedlock. She refused to give the father''s name and the council gave here a 3-bed townhouse with double garage and bought the pram and baby milk (after which her boyfriend moved in, but unofficially!). Ooh, I''d better stop there, I''m getting madder by the minute.
 
The ACLU is suing the US Dept of Health and Human Services over this program.

My husband is the legislative analyst for federal abstinence programs (including this one) so we have a lot of interesting discussions about abstinence. We both agree that sex ed should primarily be the parents'' responsibility, but that schools should teach that birth control/condoms, when used properly, are effective most of the time, but not all, and that kids should be double cautious. They also should teach that it''s perfectly ok to not have sex and that it doesn''t make you a freak if you don''t want it. They also should emphasize that no one has the right to pressure you into it if that''s not what you want.
 
little known triva on a somewhat related topic.

The crime rate in many US states (eg NYC) fell during the 1990''s because abortion had been made available in the 1970''s.
The would have been born''s would have been perpetrators of all sorts of crime, but they were never born.
 
Date: 5/24/2005 8:24:52 AM
Author: Garry H (Cut Nut)
little known triva on a somewhat related topic.

The crime rate in many US states (eg NYC) fell during the 1990''s because abortion had been made available in the 1970''s.
The would have been born''s would have been perpetrators of all sorts of crime, but they were never born.
Click to expand...
Very interesting, Gary. Sounds much like the kind of trivia my husband likes to throw on the table during group discussions with our friends.
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DiamondLil
 
There are TWO thats right TWO sex ed programs in the country which have proven to be effective one is in St. Paul the other is in Baltimore. Both have clinis in the schools with DRs present and social workers they give all sorts of health info phsyichals and weight control programs and not just sex ed. Baltimores test school also had peer counseling. So out of all the sex ed programs aimed at children between 6th and 12th grade only two school have been effective and made a differnece. (the difference was measured by pregnancy rate, drop out rate, std rate and a few others). Having been in HS not that long ago and having a sibling in MS now I can say it is getting more openly accepted to have sex and that it is girls who tend to initate not boy especially with the ones in MS. Safe sex and abstenece really cant be taught at school respect for your body and sexuality is learned from the moment you are born if you wait until they are 14 to tell them to respect themselves it wont work. Outside of school the most effective way is to know your kids, know their friends parents and keep tabs on them. As for the silver ring thing I am for anything that will make the kids give thought to what they are doing and this progrmas stats measure up better then most that are getting more funding through the school systems. But it seems highly foolish to me to think that you can change peoples way of thinking in 3.5 hours. Which is also the problem with the ones in public school systems now...
 

Those girls in London -- that story is just crazy! 12 years old??? Jeez...


LoganSapphire, I didnt know about that law suit, very interesting

Garry, I''ve heard about that book and been meaning to get it, because it seems to be filled with odd little statistics like that. Maybe I''ll pick it up today!

This was part of the article that really got to me:
""My own daughter, my 16-year-old daughter, tells me she’s going to be sexually active. I would not tell her to use a condom," says Pattyn. "I don''t think it''ll protect her. It won’t protect her heart. It won’t protect her emotional life. And it’s not going to protect her. I don’t want her to get out there and think that she’s going to be protected using a condom."

But wouldn''t his daughter be more protected with a condom than without? "Not long term," says Pattyn. "

 
Here''s one of the more cogent essays I''ve seen on the subject.

Tuesday, June 15, 2004

Kids need information to deal with sexuality


RAISA CACCIATORE AND IA DÜBOIS
GUEST COLUMNISTS

There is a tragic misconception among some Americans that sexuality education encourages teens to have sex at an early age. In Finland, we call such views höpö höpö, which means "nonsense" in English.


Unlike the United States, Finland has, since the early ''70s, required that comprehensive health education be provided in all schools. Studies since then have consistently shown that on average Finland teens initiate sexual intercourse a year later than U.S. teens.


More significant, Finland''s rates of teen pregnancy and sexually transmitted diseases (STDs) have for decades been far lower than those in the United States. Finland''s success was a direct result of its strong commitment to comprehensive sexuality education and the availability of free, confidential reproductive health services for teens. In 1973, as soon as Finnish youth started receiving such education and services, the national teen pregnancy, abortion and STD rates dropped dramatically, and steadily declined thereafter.


It is quite telling that they rose again in the late ''90s, when a fiscal crisis in Finland resulted in major funding cuts in adolescent health services. At the same time, sexuality education was no longer mandatory. The notable exception to this alarming reversal was the one district in Finland where the Family Planning Center continued its work. Only there did the abortion rate continue to drop.


Fortunately, the disturbing trends of the late ''90s sparked a renewed commitment to the needs of young people. In 2002, Finland made emergency contraception available over the counter and most schools resumed health education, including sexual health. Starting in 2005, comprehensive sexuality education once again will be required in all of Finland''s schools. Already, Finland''s national teen pregnancy and abortion rates have begun to decline.


To public health experts the evidence is clear: When government, churches, social institutions and families fully support comprehensive health education and services, our young people benefit; when that support is removed -- whether for fiscal, political or ideological reasons -- the next cohort of young people suffers the consequences of our neglect.


This causal link is illustrated further by the experiences of Slovenia where, during the turmoil of the early ''90s following its secession from the former Yugoslavia, teen pregnancy and abortion rates soared. To its great credit, and despite all of the challenges it faced, the government of the fledgling new nation took a bold position on sexuality education for all young people. Today the teen pregnancy and abortion rates in heavily Catholic Slovenia are among the lowest.


U.S. youth still endure the highest pregnancy, abortion and STD rates in the industrialized world -- not least because human sexuality in the United States is framed as a moral issue rather than an aspect of human development with public health implications. The experiences of other countries prove that much of this suffering can be prevented.


Accurate, non-judgmental information about the powerful yet confusing changes they are undergoing gives young people the self-awareness to make responsible choices.


Finnish society has come to understand that sexuality is a continuous and integral part of human development, beginning at birth. Finland has learned from experience that a holistic approach that addresses biological, social-emotional and cognitive development gives young people the sexual resiliency and reasoning skills they need to process the barrage of sexual messages they get from the popular media and advertisers, as well as sexually explicit materials.


When children are taught to recognize the successive stages in their own sexual development and understand what lies ahead, they know that there is no need to hurry.


Raisa Cacciatore, M.D., is a Finnish physician and child psychiatrist who has worked for many years as an expert on the sexual health of children and adolescents. Ia Dübois is a senior lecturer at the Department of Scandinavian Studies at the University of Washington.
 
Date: 5/24/2005 8:24:52 AM
Author: Garry H (Cut Nut)
little known triva on a somewhat related topic.

The crime rate in many US states (eg NYC) fell during the 1990''s because abortion had been made available in the 1970''s.
The would have been born''s would have been perpetrators of all sorts of crime, but they were never born.
Click to expand...
NO offense.. but that is quite ridiculous
Since 1970''s, we have improved health care for the sick, instiutions for the insane and the others for the handicapped. There are less riots and racism. Less KKK picketing in the streets and more people checking to see if their elderly neighbor is warm in the winter. We have changed policies on everything from the amount of food we eat to how much housing and education is avaiable to low income families. To say that that abortion lower crime rate is simply stupid. Perhaps the ''bad guys'' were killed... but perhaps the person that could have found the cure for AIDS dies as well, or perhaps the one that could negotiate peace, the next Einstein or the next Picasso.

That little piece of TRIVIA is unfounded and in MO ...crap.
 
Date: 5/24/2005 2:45:15 PM
Author: MINE!!

Date: 5/24/2005 8:24:52 AM
Author: Garry H (Cut Nut)
little known triva on a somewhat related topic.

The crime rate in many US states (eg NYC) fell during the 1990''s because abortion had been made available in the 1970''s.
The would have been born''s would have been perpetrators of all sorts of crime, but they were never born.
Click to expand...
NO offense.. but that is quite ridiculous
Since 1970''s, we have improved health care for the sick, instiutions for the insane and the others for the handicapped. There are less riots and racism. Less KKK picketing in the streets and more people checking to see if their elderly neighbor is warm in the winter. We have changed policies on everything from the amount of food we eat to how much housing and education is avaiable to low income families. To say that that abortion lower crime rate is simply stupid. Perhaps the ''bad guys'' were killed... but perhaps the person that could have found the cure for AIDS dies as well, or perhaps the one that could negotiate peace, the next Einstein or the next Picasso.

That little piece of TRIVIA is unfounded and in MO ...crap.
Click to expand...

Actually, there are several articles that debate the validity of the original study, so I wouldn''t quite say that the abortion-crime rate correlation and causation have become proven fact.
 
I come from an older generation.

Here''s how they promoted "abstenence" in my day. If a girl got pregnant she just disappeared. She was sent to another school or sometimes her family would take her out of school and (i suppose) she took her lessons at home and got her GED. Or she went to stay with some relative until she had the baby.

Once she had the baby she went to another school with the other girls who were moms and didn''t come back in to the general population.

Very, very different from nowadays where the pregnant girl gets the lion''s share of the attention. People are making a fuss ("what are you going to name the baby?") and giving her a baby shower at school while the smarter or abstinent girl gets no attention or gifts for it. Where the girl who plans to defer getting pregnant sees the new moms dropping their cute little baby at the (in school) daycare with everyone gushing and cooing over them.

It''s amazing how well that program worked in my day.

And now with DNA evidence they could easily put the same penalty on the father (which has always been the complaint about the system - it punishes the girl while the guy gets no penalty).

I have a conflict sometimes about how we have become a "society of enablers". Not so much with whether knowledge is available because I think knowledge is neutral.

It''s the constant promotion of risk taking behavior and a dysfunctional lifestyle in the advertising and promotion to teens that has a worse influence than just knowledge. The bizarre sexualization of preteens. We can blame our corporations for taking a hand in that.
 
Date: 5/24/2005 2:45:15 PM
Author: MINE!!

Date: 5/24/2005 8:24:52 AM
Author: Garry H (Cut Nut)
little known triva on a somewhat related topic.

The crime rate in many US states (eg NYC) fell during the 1990''s because abortion had been made available in the 1970''s.
The would have been born''s would have been perpetrators of all sorts of crime, but they were never born.
Click to expand...
NO offense.. but that is quite ridiculous
Since 1970''s, we have improved health care for the sick, instiutions for the insane and the others for the handicapped. There are less riots and racism. Less KKK picketing in the streets and more people checking to see if their elderly neighbor is warm in the winter. We have changed policies on everything from the amount of food we eat to how much housing and education is avaiable to low income families. To say that that abortion lower crime rate is simply stupid. Perhaps the ''bad guys'' were killed... but perhaps the person that could have found the cure for AIDS dies as well, or perhaps the one that could negotiate peace, the next Einstein or the next Picasso.

That little piece of TRIVIA is unfounded and in MO ...crap.
Click to expand...
Dont Shot me - just the messanger Mine
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The writter did apparently compare states that had not made abortion easier and found their crime rates stayed high.
I only read a 2 page book summary in the economist though.
And I am not supporting abortion.
 
Hate crimes are up aren''t they?
 
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