8-fold symmetry - just some theory

[Paul-Antwerp]

Today is Chinese New Year, and I was just watching a report on this. There, I learned that 8 is a lucky number in Chinese culture, and therefore 2008 is regarded as a very auspicious year.

I could not help thinking about diamonds again, especially of the 8-fold symmetry of a round brilliant (or of a round single-cut for that matter). Why in earth did ancient cutters end up cutting a majority of their stones with 8-fold symmetry?

Now we know that very big stones (say over 5Ct?) probably benefit from having more facets, while smaller (under 0.10 Ct) are better off with less facets. This is because the size of the virtual facets is important in our observation of scintillation and fire.

Why the 8-fold symmetry prevailed, we will probably never know. Maybe because it is easier to obtain with primitive means. Try drawing a circle and dividing it in 6 pieces with a free hand. Dividing it in 8 parts is easier.

However, hearing about the auspiciousness of the figure 8 today, I cannot help but wonder whether there might also be some cultural influence.

All in all, I just wanted to share with you how I sometimes wonder about certain things (even in my own professional field) that we are so accustomed to, and then I wonder where this came from.

Live long,

 

[diagem]

Date: 2/7/2008 4:22:44 PM
Author:Paul-Antwerp
Today is Chinese New Year, and I was just watching a report on this. There, I learned that 8 is a lucky number in Chinese culture, and therefore 2008 is regarded as a very auspicious year.

I could not help thinking about diamonds again, especially of the 8-fold symmetry of a round brilliant (or of a round single-cut for that matter). Why in earth did ancient cutters end up cutting a majority of their stones with 8-fold symmetry?

Now we know that very big stones (say over 5Ct?) probably benefit from having more facets, while smaller (under 0.10 Ct) are better off with less facets. This is because the size of the virtual facets is important in our observation of scintillation and fire.

Why the 8-fold symmetry prevailed, we will probably never know. Maybe because it is easier to obtain with primitive means. Try drawing a circle and dividing it in 6 pieces with a free hand. Dividing it in 8 parts is easier.

However, hearing about the auspiciousness of the figure 8 today, I cannot help but wonder whether there might also be some cultural influence.

All in all, I just wanted to share with you how I sometimes wonder about certain things (even in my own professional field) that we are so accustomed to, and then I wonder where this came from.

Live long,

I think it came from 4 mains and 4 corners..., historically..., and naturally...

First came the point cut..., which was a octahedron with a top cut off...
Second came the table cut where the table was cut and four mains on the Pav. and Crown were cut incl. a culet...
Third came the same with four pav. corners and crown corners cut...

There you go..., 8 fold!!! And we are stuck since then...

 

[strmrdr]

my guess would be the same way that 1/2 1/4 1/8 1/16 became common.
fold it in 2 and you get 1/2,fold it again and 1/4 again for 1/8 and so forth.
That is far more accurate and faster than trying to fold it in 3rds.

So my guess is that it came from the tools and splitting the measurements.
The stopped at 8 because 16 was too hard too line up the facets.
Having talked to a gemstone cuttter 16 fold is far more than twice as hard to line up facets on than 8 more like 100x harder.

 

[DiamondExpert]

...actually the first diamond cutter was an arachnid, and with 8 simple eyes, it just looked best to cut 8-fold symmetry

!...now you know the rest of the story!

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

Date: 2/7/2008 6:39:29 PM
Author: DiamondExpert
...actually the first diamond cutter was an arachnid, and with 8 simple eyes, it just looked best to cut 8-fold symmetry

!...now you know the rest of the story!

At least some humour survives Gary

Of course DiaGem has given us the correct answer.
The same is true for triangular stones, they come from cleavages and maccles that are that shape.

What is more interesting is that it took so long for princess cuts that follow the perfect octahedra to evolve.

Perhaps it would have happened sooner if that pesky Morse and his employee had not developed a bruter for rounding?

 

[diagem]

Date: 2/7/2008 7:56:25 PM
Author: Garry H (Cut Nut)

Date: 2/7/2008 6:39:29 PM
Author: DiamondExpert
...actually the first diamond cutter was an arachnid, and with 8 simple eyes, it just looked best to cut 8-fold symmetry

!...now you know the rest of the story!

At least some humour survives Gary

Of course DiaGem has given us the correct answer.
The same is true for triangular stones, they come from cleavages and maccles that are that shape.

What is more interesting is that it took so long for princess cuts that follow the perfect octahedra to evolve.

Perhaps it would have happened sooner if that pesky Morse and his employee had not developed a bruter for rounding?

Hey Garry..., we cutters have slow thinking minds...

, And we are creatures of habits....

,

But it seems like the younger generation coming are pushing for innovations..., let see them...

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

Date: 2/8/2008 3:37:30 AM
Author: DiaGem

Date: 2/7/2008 7:56:25 PM
Author: Garry H (Cut Nut)

Date: 2/7/2008 6:39:29 PM
Author: DiamondExpert
...actually the first diamond cutter was an arachnid, and with 8 simple eyes, it just looked best to cut 8-fold symmetry

!...now you know the rest of the story!

At least some humour survives Gary

Of course DiaGem has given us the correct answer.
The same is true for triangular stones, they come from cleavages and maccles that are that shape.

What is more interesting is that it took so long for princess cuts that follow the perfect octahedra to evolve.

Perhaps it would have happened sooner if that pesky Morse and his employee had not developed a bruter for rounding?

Hey Garry..., we cutters have slow thinking minds...

, And we are creatures of habits....

,

But it seems like the younger generation coming are pushing for innovations..., let see them...

I suspect you are the meat in the sandwich DG?

 

[diagem]

Date: 2/8/2008 7:05:45 AM
Author: Garry H (Cut Nut)

Date: 2/8/2008 3:37:30 AM
Author: DiaGem

Date: 2/7/2008 7:56:25 PM
Author: Garry H (Cut Nut)

Date: 2/7/2008 6:39:29 PM
Author: DiamondExpert
...actually the first diamond cutter was an arachnid, and with 8 simple eyes, it just looked best to cut 8-fold symmetry

!...now you know the rest of the story!

At least some humour survives Gary

Of course DiaGem has given us the correct answer.
The same is true for triangular stones, they come from cleavages and maccles that are that shape.

What is more interesting is that it took so long for princess cuts that follow the perfect octahedra to evolve.

Perhaps it would have happened sooner if that pesky Morse and his employee had not developed a bruter for rounding?

Hey Garry..., we cutters have slow thinking minds...

, And we are creatures of habits....

,

But it seems like the younger generation coming are pushing for innovations..., let see them...

I suspect you are the meat in the sandwich DG?

as long as I am "prime-cut" or "A grade"....., I am fine with it!

I always thought it was the taste maker in a good sandwich

.

 

[Paul-Antwerp]

Date: 2/8/2008 3:37:30 AM
Author: DiaGem

Date: 2/7/2008 7:56:25 PM
Author: Garry H (Cut Nut)

Date: 2/7/2008 6:39:29 PM
Author: DiamondExpert
...actually the first diamond cutter was an arachnid, and with 8 simple eyes, it just looked best to cut 8-fold symmetry

!...now you know the rest of the story!

At least some humour survives Gary

Of course DiaGem has given us the correct answer.
The same is true for triangular stones, they come from cleavages and maccles that are that shape.

What is more interesting is that it took so long for princess cuts that follow the perfect octahedra to evolve.

Perhaps it would have happened sooner if that pesky Morse and his employee had not developed a bruter for rounding?

Hey Garry..., we cutters have slow thinking minds...

, And we are creatures of habits....

,

But it seems like the younger generation coming are pushing for innovations..., let see them...

From experience, I know that cutters are creatures of habits. This is contrary to the position, heard often on this forum, that ancient cutters already knew how to best cut stones for performance. I think that many cutters are just repeating mistakes of their ancestors, trying to perfect minor issues where they encounter problems, but never questioning the basic proposition.

Live long,

 

[diagem]

Date: 2/8/2008 9:28:58 AM
Author: Paul-Antwerp

Date: 2/8/2008 3:37:30 AM
Author: DiaGem

Date: 2/7/2008 7:56:25 PM
Author: Garry H (Cut Nut)

Date: 2/7/2008 6:39:29 PM
Author: DiamondExpert
...actually the first diamond cutter was an arachnid, and with 8 simple eyes, it just looked best to cut 8-fold symmetry

!...now you know the rest of the story!

At least some humour survives Gary

Of course DiaGem has given us the correct answer.
The same is true for triangular stones, they come from cleavages and maccles that are that shape.

What is more interesting is that it took so long for princess cuts that follow the perfect octahedra to evolve.

Perhaps it would have happened sooner if that pesky Morse and his employee had not developed a bruter for rounding?

Hey Garry..., we cutters have slow thinking minds...

, And we are creatures of habits....

,

But it seems like the younger generation coming are pushing for innovations..., let see them...

From experience, I know that cutters are creatures of habits. This is contrary to the position, heard often on this forum, that ancient cutters already knew how to best cut stones for performance. I think that many cutters are just repeating mistakes of their ancestors, trying to perfect minor issues where they encounter problems, but never questioning the basic proposition.

Live long,

Agreed..., + the fact that the material is darn expensive brings a cutter to really put his b_lls on the line if he wants to journey out for new cutting ideas!!!
We have to remember that the majority of cutters are employees working on a salary for their livelihood and are not in a position to experiment with such expensive material!

And most owners of cutting facilities are just to far from the day to day material itself! Which brings them to behave as "creatures of habits".

But..., as I mentioned before..., there is a new breed of a younger generation cutters that are willing to gamble for innovative purposes..., and they know that added value today is the name of the "surviving" game of this old and primitive industry!

 

[strmrdr]

I think in some cuts there actually has been a step back.
The top cut old time asschers are wowsers.

I guess it is innovative too get most of the look in a shallower cut but still.

 

[diagem]

Date: 2/8/2008 11:57:01 AM
Author: strmrdr
I think in some cuts there actually has been a step back.
The top cut old time asschers are wowsers.

I guess it is innovative too get most of the look in a shallower cut but still.

Thats because of economics and the fact that everyone wants the spread..., spread..., spread!!!
Spread comes at a cost of beauty in my (humble) opinion...

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

Date: 2/8/2008 11:57:01 AM
Author: strmrdr
I think in some cuts there actually has been a step back.
The top cut old time asschers are wowsers.

I guess it is innovative too get most of the look in a shallower cut but still.

wowser


Main Entry: wow·ser
Pronunciation: \ˈwau̇-zər\
Function: noun
Etymology: origin unknown
Date: 1899
chiefly Australian : an obtrusively puritanical person

 

[strmrdr]

Date: 2/8/2008 3:31:15 PM
Author: Garry H (Cut Nut)

Date: 2/8/2008 11:57:01 AM
Author: strmrdr
I think in some cuts there actually has been a step back.
The top cut old time asschers are wowsers.

I guess it is innovative too get most of the look in a shallower cut but still.

wowser



Main Entry: wow·ser
Pronunciation: ˈwau̇-zər
Function: noun
Etymology: origin unknown
Date: 1899
chiefly Australian : an obtrusively puritanical person

lol around here wowsers is something that makes ya say wow lol

 

[Paul-Antwerp]

Date: 2/8/2008 10:08:09 AM
Author: DiaGem

Agreed..., + the fact that the material is darn expensive brings a cutter to really put his b_lls on the line if he wants to journey out for new cutting ideas!!!
We have to remember that the majority of cutters are employees working on a salary for their livelihood and are not in a position to experiment with such expensive material!

And most owners of cutting facilities are just to far from the day to day material itself! Which brings them to behave as ''creatures of habits''.

But..., as I mentioned before..., there is a new breed of a younger generation cutters that are willing to gamble for innovative purposes..., and they know that added value today is the name of the ''surviving'' game of this old and primitive industry!

How well put, Diagem.

To summarize, the majority of the industry is more inclined to following ''habits'' instead of adopting new knowledge.

Live long,

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

Date: 2/9/2008 6:06:30 AM
Author: Paul-Antwerp

Date: 2/8/2008 10:08:09 AM
Author: DiaGem

Agreed..., + the fact that the material is darn expensive brings a cutter to really put his b_lls on the line if he wants to journey out for new cutting ideas!!!
We have to remember that the majority of cutters are employees working on a salary for their livelihood and are not in a position to experiment with such expensive material!

And most owners of cutting facilities are just to far from the day to day material itself! Which brings them to behave as ''creatures of habits''.

But..., as I mentioned before..., there is a new breed of a younger generation cutters that are willing to gamble for innovative purposes..., and they know that added value today is the name of the ''surviving'' game of this old and primitive industry!

How well put, Diagem.

To summarize, the majority of the industry is more inclined to following ''habits'' instead of adopting new knowledge.

Live long,

And that is not just the cutters - it is the basis of the industry - we do not have a normal industries interpret the markets needs, design new products, launch them, observe the uptake, start again - interpret the markets needs, design new products, launch them, observe the uptake, - interpret the markets needs, design new products, launch them, observe the uptake,

Instead we have a pipeline. Miners tip rough diamonds in one end, they get processed from diverse goods into all (about) the same commodity, and spewed out onto the market that have been educated that diamond is a necessity for anyone getting married.

 

[diagem]

Date: 2/9/2008 6:44:16 AM
Author: Garry H (Cut Nut)

Date: 2/9/2008 6:06:30 AM
Author: Paul-Antwerp

Date: 2/8/2008 10:08:09 AM
Author: DiaGem

Agreed..., + the fact that the material is darn expensive brings a cutter to really put his b_lls on the line if he wants to journey out for new cutting ideas!!!
We have to remember that the majority of cutters are employees working on a salary for their livelihood and are not in a position to experiment with such expensive material!

And most owners of cutting facilities are just to far from the day to day material itself! Which brings them to behave as 'creatures of habits'.

But..., as I mentioned before..., there is a new breed of a younger generation cutters that are willing to gamble for innovative purposes..., and they know that added value today is the name of the 'surviving' game of this old and primitive industry!

How well put, Diagem.

To summarize, the majority of the industry is more inclined to following 'habits' instead of adopting new knowledge.

Live long,

And that is not just the cutters - it is the basis of the industry - we do not have a normal industries interpret the markets needs, design new products, launch them, observe the uptake, start again - interpret the markets needs, design new products, launch them, observe the uptake, - interpret the markets needs, design new products, launch them, observe the uptake,

Instead we have a pipeline. Miners tip rough diamonds in one end, they get processed from diverse goods into all (about) the same commodity, and spewed out onto the market that have been educated that diamond is a necessity for anyone getting married.

Hey Garry..., thats the meaning of future success in this industry...

The service on interpreting between all the assembly lines in this "primitive" industry!!!

Connecting between rough producers, manufacturers, jewelers, and end consumers..., right now they all live and act world apart!!!

BTW..., can I move you and Paul and maybe some more potentials from the cut-group and start a new group called "interpret-group"?

 

[strmrdr]

Date: 2/9/2008 6:44:16 AM
Author: Garry H (Cut Nut)
And that is not just the cutters - it is the basis of the industry - we do not have a normal industries interpret the markets needs, design new products, launch them, observe the uptake, start again - interpret the markets needs, design new products, launch them, observe the uptake, - interpret the markets needs, design new products, launch them, observe the uptake,

Instead we have a pipeline. Miners tip rough diamonds in one end, they get processed from diverse goods into all (about) the same commodity, and spewed out onto the market that have been educated that diamond is a necessity for anyone getting married.

hammer hit the nail head on that one.
The good news is that consumers are slowly dragging the industry out of the 17th century.

 

[strmrdr]

Date: 2/9/2008 8:02:11 AM
Author: DiaGem
Hey Garry..., thats the meaning of future success in this industry...

The service on interpreting between all the assembly lines in this ''primitive'' industry!!!

Connecting between rough producers, manufacturers, jewelers, and end consumers..., right now they all live and act world apart!!!

BTW..., can I move you and Paul and maybe some more potentials from the cut-group and start a new group called ''interpret-group''?

dont forget we the people!
Industry groups are part of the problem, the future is an open partnership with the customers.

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

Date: 2/9/2008 12:05:56 PM
Author: strmrdr

Date: 2/9/2008 8:02:11 AM
Author: DiaGem
Hey Garry..., thats the meaning of future success in this industry...

The service on interpreting between all the assembly lines in this ''primitive'' industry!!!

Connecting between rough producers, manufacturers, jewelers, and end consumers..., right now they all live and act world apart!!!

BTW..., can I move you and Paul and maybe some more potentials from the cut-group and start a new group called ''interpret-group''?

dont forget we the people!
Industry groups are part of the problem, the future is an open partnership with the customers.

Storm is right DG.
(hell Storm, I have not had a decent fight with you in ages. You might be at risk of becoming pert of the problem too?

 

[strmrdr]

Date: 2/9/2008 6:27:27 PM
Author: Garry H (Cut Nut)

Storm is right DG.
(hell Storm, I have not had a decent fight with you in ages. You might be at risk of becoming pert of the problem too?

rofl, there hasn''t been much new to fight about.
Most of the stuff has been argued out 20 times already and usually we have found a middle ground.

But yea sometimes I wonder if the Borg is getting too me lol
Then I think about how much I dislike DeBeers and figure I''m safe for a while hehehehehehehe

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

Date: 2/9/2008 6:37:38 PM
Author: strmrdr

Date: 2/9/2008 6:27:27 PM
Author: Garry H (Cut Nut)

Storm is right DG.
(hell Storm, I have not had a decent fight with you in ages. You might be at risk of becoming pert of the problem too?

rofl, there hasn''t been much new to fight about.
Most of the stuff has been argued out 20 times already and usually we have found a middle ground.

But yea sometimes I wonder if the Borg is getting too me lol
Then I think about how much I dislike DeBeers and figure I''m safe for a while hehehehehehehe

afraid to tell you - the more you learn about De beers, the less you will dislike them. You could even feel sorry for them.
By learning I do not mean reading popular press rubbish storm.
Try Chaim (Tacy) memo on Idexonline.com for example

 

[strmrdr]

Date: 2/9/2008 8:55:30 PM
Author: Garry H (Cut Nut)
afraid to tell you - the more you learn about De beers, the less you will dislike them. You could even feel sorry for them.
By learning I do not mean reading popular press rubbish storm.
Try Chaim (Tacy) memo on Idexonline.com for example

Id never feel sorry for a company with that much blood on its hands.
Id do a happy dance if they went bankrupt tomorrow.

Btw it is interesting too see the trade finally admit that DeBeers and the Russians were stockpiling and frankly I find it very hard to believe that they aren''t doing so today.
Not at the level they once were but I think they are doing so.
http://idexonline.com/portal_FullEditorial.asp

 

[strmrdr]

From here it don't look like they are feeling too much of the rest of the industries pain:
http://idexonline.com/portal_FullNews.asp?id=29544

Its the middle of chain I feel for, the cutters, the very ones that add the most value too the diamond are seeing the least amount of the cash.

The smart stores are doing OK, most of them in my area are expanding, a bunch of the old timers retired to Florida this year so 4 or 5 shut down.
Some of the dinosaurs in the retail market that cant survive on the new margins are going away but that's business adapt or go out of business.

The rough suppliers if De Beers is any indication aren't hurting either....

 

[strmrdr]

I wonder if an AG might be interested in this article...
Band the dino''s together and raise prices....
http://idexonline.com/portal_FullNews.asp?id=29535
It wont work they will get eaten by the fast hard charging vendors on the block like the PS vendors.

Still want too talk industry? LOL

 

[diagem]

Date: 2/9/2008 6:27:27 PM
Author: Garry H (Cut Nut)

Date: 2/9/2008 12:05:56 PM
Author: strmrdr

Date: 2/9/2008 8:02:11 AM
Author: DiaGem
Hey Garry..., thats the meaning of future success in this industry...

The service on interpreting between all the assembly lines in this ''primitive'' industry!!!

Connecting between rough producers, manufacturers, jewelers, and end consumers..., right now they all live and act world apart!!!

BTW..., can I move you and Paul and maybe some more potentials from the cut-group and start a new group called ''interpret-group''?

dont forget we the people!
Industry groups are part of the problem, the future is an open partnership with the customers.

Storm is right DG.
(hell Storm, I have not had a decent fight with you in ages. You might be at risk of becoming pert of the problem too?

I didn''t (see my "end consumer" comment above!)..., just pointed who from this group can be an additional potential! (maybe??

)
I know Storm is probably game...

 

[strmrdr]

Im game for just about anything lol

6 hours and one asscher design later and the video codec I picked sux lol
storm is off too bed.

http://www.youtube.com/v/GSqzQa7drp4

 

[strmrdr]

sneak peek...
night! or morning for all the day people out there lol

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

Date: 2/10/2008 6:00:01 AM
Author: strmrdr
Im game for just about anything lol

6 hours and one asscher design later and the video codec I picked sux lol
storm is off too bed.

http://www.youtube.com/v/GSqzQa7drp4

it does not play for me Storm

 

[diagem]

Date: 2/10/2008 6:08:32 AM
Author: strmrdr
sneak peek...
night! or morning for all the day people out there lol

This is a sample..., I know..., bad picture but I think about 50% are the good ones (cuts...)....