Affirmative action

[missy]

Interested in hearing others thoughts about this if you’re willing to share

https://www.npr.org/2023/06/29/1181138066/affirmative-action-supreme-court-decision

 

[nala]

Par for the course, given the other recent rulings. But in 2016, some people just didn’t trust the woman bc of her emails. She was dishonest. Some pser’s even posted how gender was a non factor in a candidate. Look where we are now.

 

[Calliecake]

And exactly when are the legacy admissions going to end???? I wonder how many decades it will take for that to happen?

The playing field has never been level and it appears there are a group of Americans who will do everything in their power to ensure it stays that way, even when it comes to kids doing everything they can to make a better life for themselves. I find it sad.

As @nala stated above this decision was par for the course. This court sickens me.

 

[jaysonsmom]

Let's be real, removing Affirmative Action doesn't affect admissions decisions that much, to the extent that there are still indicators of race based on the student's Last name. My kids were both straight A students with >4.5 GPA, >1500 SATs and played Varsity level sports in high school. They did not get into the to the 2 top UC's (UCLA, Berkeley) because of their apparently Asian last name. Their non-Asian counterparts with similar or lesser stats were admitted to those Universities much to our disappointment. Racial bias exists and will still affect admissions despite the supreme court's ruling.

 

[kenny]

If all groups were equal, then affirmative action would not be justified.
But all groups are not equal, so affirmative action is justified.

If all groups in America ever achieve equality I would support ending AA.

Yet another ugly example of a group trying to assert their imagined superiority.

 

[Avondale]

I live on the other side of the world, so I'm not really qualified to give an opinion on the subject at hand. But for what it's worth, from on outside observer's point of view, this situation in the US seems a bit like... Imagine the faucet has broken and is spraying water everywhere, the smoke alarm is going off and your toddler is screaming as if the world is ending. Which issue do you tackle first? Neither because the freaking house is on fire.

 

[nala]

Let's be real, removing Affirmative Action doesn't affect admissions decisions that much, to the extent that there are still indicators of race based on the student's Last name. My kids were both straight A students with >4.5 GPA, >1500 SATs and played Varsity level sports in high school. They did not get into the to the 2 top UC's (UCLA, Berkeley) because of their apparently Asian last name. Their non-Asian counterparts with similar or lesser stats were admitted to those Universities much to our disappointment. Racial bias exists and will still affect admissions despite the supreme court's ruling.

The UC SYSTEM utilizes location in context. Students are only compared to their school’s peers. Class rank is the most important indicator in this case. It would be insightful if you indicated your kids’ class ranks. Lots of kids in affluent schools have amazing stats, etc. and some schools refuse to disclose class rank for that reason—they don’t want kids to give up or become demoralized, etc. My daughter, who has the most typical White last name-courtesy of her dad—attended such a school. She was also not first-generation thanks to my multiple degrees. So we knew she had to excel academically, but also in another area. She followed her passion and as a result, made all-league softball year after year. Her school even retired her number—she was that impressive. And I honestly believe that is why she got into CAL, tho was not recruited to play. I think they admired her dedication. She did get rejected from UCLA and got waitlisted at UCI! Got into UCSB. All this to say, the college essays matter for kids whose schools DO NOT rank and each UC looks for a certain quality. Also, majors matter a lot. Some majors are more competitive than others, for sure.
There is no such thing as a 4.5 or over GPA BC universities cap the honors or AP or weighted scores. I think the privates cap at 4.0 and UC at 4.1? Or 4.3 if I recall correctly.
Finally, they have replaced the term race with “first generation” and many students will write about that in their college essays—which gives them an advantage for sure. And first generation can be any race, any last name.
But let’s no kid ourselves. I am only a teacher, yet I was able to level the playing field for my DD. Her dad and stepmom spent countless hours devoted to her softball career. I provided her a home with zero worries and trips and experiences around the world for her to grow as a person. I enrolled her in what was continually ranked as the number one high school in the nation. She had to test in, of course. And she did as of grade 7, when it starts. She traveled one hour each way for that opportunity. And she was blessed to have parents who could afford to drive her so far. Not every kid has that much support. The playing field is not level for many and they lack the advantages I gave my DD.
Forgot to mention her SAT scores were extremely competitive thanks to the prep class that I enrolled her in. And I lost track of how many AP exams she passed. She was sophomore status her first semester. The fact that I can still recite all her accomplishments is proof that she had more advantages than most kids.

 

[marymm]

on-point opinion article by Alexandra Petri -- https://wapo.st/4443INZ

 

[telephone89]

 

[jaysonsmom]

Yes, I concur.

 

[Lookinagain]

That's interesting. I had thought about it that way yet. But I agree the court is messed up.

 

[telephone89]

That's interesting. I had thought about it that way yet. But I agree the court is messed up.

I admit to not being fully knowledgeable about this, but it does come off a bit wacky lol.

 

[Lookinagain]

I admit to not being fully knowledgeable about this, but it does come off a bit wacky lol.

Well, they hinged the web designer decision on freedom of religion. Although I thought the framers intended that to mean freedom to exercise your chosen religion in the union and not be persecuted. I'm not sure that exercising your religion was meant to extend to a business offering services to the public being able to discriminate. But I'm not a constitutional lawyer.

 

[missy]

 

[acezarra]

Regarding UCs and CSUs, California banned affirmative action in public education in 1996 with proposition 209.

Regardless, this ruling SUCKS. Like @nala stated, opportunity gaps exist. These will continue to exist until we provide equitable access for all.

 

[smitcompton]

Hi,

This does not end Affirmative Action. This case was brought by Asian students who fell they have been discriminated against. This decision only will affect 200 or so colleges. Cal has had this since the 1990s. I applaud the decision. Equal opportunity for all.

Annette

 

[Madam Bijoux]

This decision clears the way for businesses to ignore A I and diversity, which is probably what the conservative justices really wanted to do in the first place.

Affirmative Action Ruling May Upend Hiring Policies, Too (Published 2023)

The Supreme Court decision on college admissions could lead companies to alter recruitment and promotion practices to pre-empt legal challenges.

www.nytimes.com

 

[momofive]

I’m pretty sure most on here will disagree with me. I am also a retired teacher. I believe in equal opportunity for all, not equity. I believe in school choice. Tax dollars should follow the child and schools should have to compete to be the best. I believe that competition would provide the best outcomes for our children and those in disadvantaged neighborhoods would not be stuck in horrible schools that have math and literacy grades that are in the tank.

If we started at the grade school level, hopefully more diverse students, who had better opportunities, would be excelling by the time they graduate high school and thereby creating diversity in universities.

 

[acezarra]

I hesitate to weigh in because I know it is such a polarizing topic and I don't want to make people angry. However, change is hard and if you want to be an advocate for change you can't do so silently. My response is an attempt to provide a perspective as to why equity in education is critical. The topic of equity can be confusing and easily misunderstood. That is not to say that anyone who previously commented misunderstands equity, I am speaking about myself. I did not understand equity and did not understand how deeply rooted opportunity gaps are in the education system. I am working on educating myself in an effort to close equity gaps that exist in the classroom.

I'm of the opinion that equal opportunity for all won't exist until there is equity for all. Opportunity gaps exist because equal opportunity doesn't really exist. For example, take standardized testing like the SAT. The SAT costs money. You can get a waiver to take it for free a few times but this isn't automatic. Students who have the funds can take it as many times as they want. They can also pay for prep courses to help them be more successful. This seems like equal opportunity because everyone has the opportunity to take the SAT, but it is inequitable. Equity would allow all students the opportunity to take the exam as many times as they want and take any prep classes they want.

 

[empliau]

I’m pretty sure most on here will disagree with me. I am also a retired teacher. I believe in equal opportunity for all, not equity. I believe in school choice. Tax dollars should follow the child and schools should have to compete to be the best. I believe that competition would provide the best outcomes for our children and those in disadvantaged neighborhoods would not be stuck in horrible schools that have math and literacy grades that are in the tank.

If we started at the grade school level, hopefully more diverse students, who had better opportunities, would be excelling by the time they graduate high school and thereby creating diversity in universities.

Well, I have been a teacher at fairly selective private schools, and I am strongly opposed to vouchers. Private schools don't have to provide services - *expensive* services - for children with learning differences, with disabilities ranging from slight to profound, for children with behavioral problems - the list is endless. I enjoyed teaching in an easy environment, but if public dollars follow children to private schools, the children who need lots of extra help to get the appropriate education which is their right by law will not have the resources they need - because we paid for private schools.

 

[smitcompton]

Hi,

Contrary to an above post, Harvard has said they will comply with the courts ruling. Fake news above? or a joke?

Annette

 

[Lookinagain]

I believe in school choice. Tax dollars should follow the child and schools should have to compete to be the best.

I'm just wondering how the children who choose schools out of their own neighborhoods actually get to school? Do the parents need to drive them? That isn't always possible. And running busses from one neighborhood to many, many schools in different neighborhoods also isn't practical, or even possible.

In my opinion , I don't think tax payer money should follow a child to a private school unless the public school cannot accommodate their special needs. To me, the point is that my tax dollars go to the public school that is available to my child. And I agree with @empliau that most private schools don't provide the services needed by kids with learning differences, etc.

Some kids can't be serviced by the public schools because of their differences and if that is the case, and a private school for children with similar issues is the only school that can help them, then yes, I think tax dollars should follow them to a school that can give them the support that they need.

 

[YadaYadaYada]

Speaking about the transportation aspect, it probably would not be much different from how transportation is handled for magnet schools. At least here in CT the child’s district pays for the transportation for a child to go to a magnet school.

My opinion is very biased because we pay for our youngest to go to a private school which I drive him to, because our districted school is very low performing (both disctict-wise and state). In the upper grades there is a ridiculous amount of fighting. So of course I would love foe CT to go with a voucher system because we would save a ton on tuition.

 

[missy]

"

I Am a Physician Face of Affirmative Action​

— The Supreme Court's ruling hurts, but still I have hope​

by Justin Bullock, MD June 30, 2023

Bullock is a nephrology fellow.
Before this week, affirmation action represented a meaningful, albeit insufficient, attempt to make amends for the historical racial legacy upon which our country stands. I grieve for those individuals whose paths are already hard enough, and will be made tougher by the Supreme Court's elimination of affirmative action in higher education admissions. Among could-be future doctors, this ruling has consequences not only for diverse medical school applicants, but also for the well-being of our patients.

The same populations in our society who suffer devastating health disparities are those same populations who are disenfranchised with respect to educational outcomes. In many ways, I am very much one of the statistics: I am a Black man with a personal and family history of serious mental illness. I grew up in a single-parent household surrounded by violence and with my father in prison. Affirmative action gave people like me a chance to fight against those statistics. I am a face of affirmative action.
My 4 years as an undergraduate at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology (MIT) shattered a glass ceiling in my life, shifting my social class. I received a world class chemical engineering education: I was taught by a Nobel Prize winner, a Pulitzer Prize finalist, and got paid by the institute to work in a cutting-edge bioinorganic synthetic chemistry lab. But the benefits of MIT diffused far beyond my academic coursework. The institute found internships for me and paid for me to live in Mexico and Spain where I became fluent in Spanish, which I now speak with my patients. One of those internships -- volunteering in an underserved hospital in Querétaro, Mexico -- helped me get into medical school. My college friends are now CEOs of Silicon Valley start-ups. I could go on for days.

MIT was extremely tough for me. I still remember walking out of the lecture hall after my first test at MIT, a multivariable calculus exam. I felt confident as I left. But shortly after, I ran into a white woman peer who I had seen around campus before but never talked to.
"What did you do for question 3?" she asked me.
I told her about the parametric equation I had written. "Oh, that's wrong, I took multivariable calculus in high school," she said to me without a care in the world and scurried off. Sadness washed over me as she walked away. My high school didn't even offer multivariable calculus -- I was on our only advanced track just by taking regular calculus.
I worked extremely hard to get to college and have continued to work extremely hard after MIT, gaining access to one elite institution after another -- University of California (UC) San Francisco, UC-Berkeley, and University of Washington, where I am now a nephrology fellow.

Still, did I deserve to go to any of these elite institutions? I will never know whether I would have gotten into MIT without affirmative action, but I do know that somewhere along the way I benefitted from affirmative action. My lack of entitlement to MIT is not because affirmative action has helped me. It is because attending MIT is a privilege. Access to elite academic institutions represents access to power. As an education researcher and critical theory scholaropens in a new tab or window (yes, the same "critical" of critical race theory), whose main interest relates to the way identity impacts experiences and assessmentopens in a new tab or window in medical education, I see the battle for affirmation action very clearly: this is a battle in which those social groups who have power are desperately fighting to hold onto it while those with less power are clamoring for it.
While the Supreme Court ruling is a crushing blow to educational justice, it was by no means an unexpected one. Those of us in the equity space have been preparing for this day. It also provides an opportunity for growth of future equity oriented educational interventions. Legal challenges to affirmative action should challenge us to see that not only do those in power want to maintain their power, but also, there are many identity groups who are not categorized as underrepresented minorities who are suffering in the United States. Education systems, including medical education, must design thoughtful ways to continue to recruit and admit those who come from underrepresented minoritized groups; those who come from lower socioeconomic status; those who have fled persecution or war; and other underserved groups.

I attempt to support this cause through my research. My colleagues and I have forthcoming data demonstrating how medical trainees productively leverage their identities to help care for patients who share those identities (as well as those who differ from them). We already knew identity-concordant care improves patient health outcomes. But by enriching the evidence for how diversity of identity (including, but well beyond race) benefits minoritized and non-minoritized patients, we lay an evidence-based infrastructure upon which institutions can construct patient-oriented (and hopefully legally defensible) admission policies.
In the wordsopens in a new tab or window of Olayemi Olurin, a lawyer and one of my favorite political commentators: "Y'all think the status quo became the status quo because the people maintaining it aren't prepared to fight for it?...If we are all committed in this fight against racial injustice and inequality. It's a fight my guy. It's a fight. It's a fight. You know how a fight works? You blow, I blow."

As those of us committed to equity and dismantling health disparities collectively figure out a path forward, we must all be prepared to fight in our own contexts in the face of the loss of affirmative action. Fighting through this is our only path forward.
As for me and that woman after the math test, we had differential opportunities, but I do not think we had different potential. Oh, and that test? I got a 100%.
Justin Bullock, MD,opens in a new tab or window is a fellow in Nephrology at the University of Washington School of Medicine.
"

 

[Lookinagain]

Speaking about the transportation aspect, it probably would not be much different from how transportation is handled for magnet schools. At least here in CT the child’s district pays for the transportation for a child to go to a magnet school.

But aren't there a limited number of magnet schools and those have limited enrollment? For instance, there are only two in my county in Massachusetts while there are approximately 200 public schools. So the low number of magnet schools would seem to limit the amount of transporting that needed to be done. If it was a wide open system, I would imagine it would require a lot more transportation of students to many more schools than the number of magnet schools in an area.

 

[YadaYadaYada]

But aren't there a limited number of magnet schools and those have limited enrollment? For instance, there are only two in my county in Massachusetts while there are approximately 200 public schools. So the low number of magnet schools would seem to limit the amount of transporting that needed to be done. If it was a wide open system, I would imagine it would require a lot more transportation of students to many more schools than the number of magnet schools in an area.

Here is a list of the magnet schools in CT just in the Hartford area, this doesn’t include New Haven and New London areas, just as an example:



Now each magnet school has a transportation map that determines bussing but they are pretty generous. As an example, my older son went to a magnet school in Hartford and was provided a bus even though we are in a county 45 minutes away. That school also provided bussing even farther out than us!

As far as enrollment, in my son’s school there were a certain number of seats for Hartford residents, then any suburban or neighboring student would fill the rest.

Maybe CT is an extreme example in terms of the number of magnets available vs private schools. This also doesn’t account for charter schools.

 

[Lookinagain]

Well maybe CT is an unusual example because as I stated, I'm in MA and there are only 2 magnet schools in my county, vs 200 public schools. I have no idea how many public schools there are in Hartford vs the number of magnet schools so I can't see what the ratio is. Perhaps CT has a very generous equity plan, but all states are not like that. We can agree to disagree on this, but I am very much opposed to a voucher program for multiple reasons, some of which are stated above. We all have our reasons for our opinions.

 

[YadaYadaYada]

Absolutely @Lookinagain and hey, I’m the first to admit that if I didn’t have a kid in private school because our neighborhood schools is garbage, I’m not sure I would be in favor of vouchers. It doesn’t really matter, CT will never do vouchers anyways.