An Introduction and Question about Copper Bearing Tourmaline

[Gawi109]

Hi Everyone!

First off, I want to thank you for all of the information I have gained as a lurker. You all have given me invaluable information for which I am truly thankful.

I have a question regarding copper bearing tourmaline.

I purchased a copper bearing tourmaline of 4.64 carats. It is a mint green color and has a window you can drive a bus through. It also has a gem certification. I would prefer to have the window cut out because I hate windows but believe that, by doing so, the gem certificate will become invalid. Is this in fact true?

If so, should I keep the carat weight and accept the window? Or have the window removed and have the stone recertified? Or, just have the stone re-cut to my liking and not worry about the gem certification?

Any suggestions you have would be most appreciated.

 

[minousbijoux]

Re: An Introduction and Question about Copper Bearing Tourma

Its hard to have opinion one way or another regarding what you should do without seeing the stone. A few things to keep in mind: windows, especially windows you can drive a bus through, are typically because the stone is poorly cut and significantly too shallow in depth to have good light return. If this is the case, then recutting to the proper proportions for good light return would result in a huge loss in your stone's weight. This would likely affect the color as well, making the stone lighter and less saturated than it currently is.

As to the lab report - yes, a recut invalidates the lab report, unless someone will take your word for it that its the same stone. Many tourmaline contain copper but don't rise to the level of the glow typically associated with copper bearing stones, if that makes any sense. If it is a high quality cuprian stone with good color clarity and glow, no one in their right mind would recommend a recut.

 

[Gawi109]

Re: An Introduction and Question about Copper Bearing Tourma

Dear minousbijoux,

Thank you so much for taking the time to reply. I respect your opinon and am grateful for your input.

This stone is not a shallow cut stone, and is, in fact, within the 75% that makes a re-cut more feasible. The dimensions of the stone are: 10.85 x 8.98 x 7.18.

You have definitely addressed the issue I am having with this stone. I'm not sure if carat weight should outweigh the window issue. I have considered sending it out to a cutter to have the window removed but, with a copper bearing stone, I'm not sure if I should keep the carat weight and live with the window or lose some of the carat weight and have the window cut out. I know it's hard to make a determination without a photo so I will gladly post a picture tomorrow when I have some sunlight and can take a photo.

Thank you again for taking the time to reply to my post. I appreciate it.

 

[minousbijoux]

Re: An Introduction and Question about Copper Bearing Tourma

We're all happy to help. As you probably know, there are a few here who have significant knowledge of copper bearing stones. While I own a few, I do not have any Paraibas - unfortunately, that ship sailed before I was even paying attention. Anyway, I'm sure you'll hear from them tomorrow as well.

 

[pregcurious]

Re: An Introduction and Question about Copper Bearing Tourma

Based on the depth of your stone, which seems very reasonable, it sounds like the last few facets are almost flat? To get rid of the window, I think you would have to get rid of these almost flat facets, and you would still have the issue of having to have a steep angle at the bottom of the pavilion to avoid a window. In that case, I think you could still lose a lot of weight, but I am having issues picturing it.

I think it's best if you contact a respectable lapidary to advise you. I saw that Gemart (http://www.gemartservices.com/)was recently recommended on this forum. I have never used them, so perhaps others can chime in, and/or you could also search for reviews here on the search engine.

 

[Gawi109]

Re: An Introduction and Question about Copper Bearing Tourma

Pregcurious,

Thank you for your input. I considered sending the stone to Jerry to have it re-cut and I feel it is probably a good idea if I do. The gem cert will be invalidated by doing so but I guess it's better to have a stone I'm happy with than to worry about carat weight. I just didn't want to shoot myself in the foot with this particular stone. From what I can understand, with some stones, carat weight outweighs a window in certain instances.

BTW, can or someone else tell me how in the world to post a photo on this forum? I tried to use the insert image icon at the top of the screen but it did nothing.

Thanks again!

 

[pregcurious]

Re: An Introduction and Question about Copper Bearing Tourma

When you post a reply, scroll to the bottom, below where you enter the text. Click on the tab that says "upload attachment", and that window will pop forward. Click on "Browse" to the right of the "filename" box (which is empty) and find your file. (You can also write in the directory instead of browsing.) Click on "add the file". You can preview your post with pic, if you want, before submitting it.

BTW, I was not advocating that you cut your stone, but just offering another place for an opinion. I hope you can post a pic!

 

[Gawi109]

Re: An Introduction and Question about Copper Bearing Tourma

Thank you pregcurious! I appreciate your help.

This photo was taken in my kitchen with no flash...just overhead lighting. As you can see, it is a green/yellow stone with a ginormous window but, to its credit, it has a good glow in most indoor light. I haven't had the opportunity to see it in sunlight yet. Please excuse the black hair....my dog gets into everything even when she isn't around. Go figure.. Her name is "Jewel" by the way. I guess she is just leaving her mark. Lol.

Honestly, for what I paid for the stone, I was pleasantly surprised at the color and clarity on this tourmaline. My photos really don't capture it well. I do think I should have the window closed though. Jerry Newman closed a window on a spessartite garnet of mine with minimal carat loss. I don't think it would hurt to send it to him to see what he thinks. I hate losing the gem cert. and carat weight by having it re-cut but I hate having the window even more. It is 4.64 carats so I can live with some loss. The color and clarity on the stone are good in my opinion but it is just my opinion and I'm definitely a novice. I welcome any input from the members on this board. All of you definitely have more experienced than I have and your input would be appreciated.

Thanks again for your help with the photo posting!

 

[Barrett]

Re: An Introduction and Question about Copper Bearing Tourma

I don't want this to come off to harsh but I am afraid it will regardless..... and for that I apologize. Being an educational consumer forum I have to add my two cents. I sure do love me some Cu2 colored tourmalines
I like the color of your stone ..reminds me of a Namibian demantoid garnet. I would chop that puppy up and close that window...any color is better than no color in that massive Bay window(yes that is the dreaded Bay window you hear the old ones speak of under hushed breath).
Yes, please do a recut.

It's just that your's, and most consumers, idea of glow is not the same one talked about and written into the annals of lore in regards to pariaba/cuprian tourmaline. The "glow" and "neon" you read and hear about is something most of us mere mortals have never laid eyes upon. A few on here have like LD and TL. To have a moniker like "glow" or "neon" attached to a stone pretty much puts it into the color class of "vivid". If it's not color graded "vivid" then it doesn't glow...as simple as that.
I am pretty sure your idea of "glow" has something to do with brillance or fire(dispersion) or scintillation.
As TL puts it..."it should look like it has some sort of internal battery"

As for copper bearing /cuprian tourmalines in general...the public is getting hoodwinked and has been for years now by paying inflated prices for stones that have some little molecules that impart a color that is no different than stones colored by a different molecule but cost a fraction of the price.
Iron can, and does, produce the same exact color as copper. It's just that copper does a better job.... so once you cross that threshold where iron can't pump out anymore color and copper can...well...then you have a real cuprian tourmaline...a paraiba.

Nothing special about copper bearing tourmalines for the most part. Copper in tourmalines is not as rare as most think. It's actually found in quite a few places..... In at least 3 other Brazilian mines, other than Batlaha, mulungu, and alto dos quintos(the original 3 brazilian paraiba mines).
It's found in tourmalines in Namibia from a certain mine. They were even detecting copper in tourmalines 50 years before the Batalha strike. Warner (1935), Carobbi and Pieruccini (1946, 1947), and Staatz (1955)..all 4 mentioned or found amounts of copper in tourmaline but none found or related it to color(a chromophore).

Copper? Who cares. You can't see it can you??(needles???..so what, they are hampering the stones clarity and not helping it at all save for IDing it)

As for green copperbearing tourmalines...touchy subject. We all know that Cu+2 is the acting coloring chromophore in so called paraiba tourmalines..if the tourmaline was just colored by Cu+2 alone it would be that fantastic glowy turquoise blue to blue color every one loves.
When you trend towards the green colors you are incorporating Mn and Ti into the lattice and when you move towards the violets, and purples you are adding Mn to the lattice.
When you are buying paraibas you are buying for the copper but when you get these other transition elements into the fold they sort of muddle and displace the y-site which could have been a good place for the copper molecules. So when you have say an Mn+2 molecule in place of a Cu+2 molecule you are downgrading the effect of the Cu to produce the "neon"/"glow". As an example: say you have a green paraiba? doesn't really make sense..the Cu+2 is producing a turquoise or blue color stone but you have a green one in you hand. Where is the color the copper molecules are imparting on the stone? Don't see any blue just green or purple for that matter. If you have a blue-green stone or a green-blue stone then you are getting some effect from the copper molecules but as you move closer to the green end you get less paraiba-like.

Cu+2(copper)=turquoise(blue)="neon"/"glow"
Less blue/turquoise in the stone = less copper acting as a chromophore = less "glow"/"neon" effect.

Rossman says the green coloring in Paraiba tourmaline is due to Ti and Mn others say Iron.
Copper ONLY produces that cyan/turquoise color in tourmaline. Not green or that blue-green color. As an example this green one that the OP posted is far away from what "paraiba " is suspossed to be. That green is not being produced by copper in the slightest, but by either iron or a Titanium/Manganese.

Green = Iron or Titanium/manganese chromophores. it's really no different than a regular green tourmaline. It has to have that blue/turquoise/cyan to be a paraiba..whether that be blue-green, green-blue mix or blue.(turquoise, cyan, windex, etc)

If not for the finds in Batalha the Paraiba/cuprian tourmalines would just be a footnote in gem history. Many a tourmaline has copper in it but not many have suffcient amounts to give you that whopping glow/neon quality. Thta ebay seller from another thread that had cuprians labeled from Namibia..copper is found in tourmalines from Namibia but none have copper than acts as a chromophore..ie. "trace amount".
Nice cuprians/copperbearing are actually a dime a dozen. You have to have a significant amount of copper to make it go BAM. I believe that labs are adding fuel to the frenzy by detecting trace amount of copper in stones and labeling them cuprian/paraiba which technically is true but the amounts are so little(by weight) that either the copper is not acting as a chromophore or it's acting on the color in such little amounts.

Once again I am sorry ahead of time if my post came off as "attack-like" towards your stone...that is not my intention. I copied portions of it from prior post I had written regarding the same subject so it's more like a synopsis I guess.
Thanks for posting your stone and I think the color is great but the window has to go!!!!

 

[Gawi109]

Re: An Introduction and Question about Copper Bearing Tourma

Barrett,

You didn't come across as "attack-like" at all. In fact, I found your post very educational and interesting. Thanks!

To clarify, when I said this tourmaline has a good "glow" I was using it as a way to diferentiate between what I consider to be a run of the mill stone vs. a stone that really has something to show off. It was probably a poor choice of words in this case. I in no way meant to infer that the stone I have has that true blue (pun intended) paraiba "Glow" which, for me, is the stuff of legend....sort of like unicorns and bigfoot only real.

A true blue paraiba is something I would like to see up close and personal. I may have to add it to my bucket list but, I am a little worried that, if I actually do see a true paraiba in person, I will forever be ruined.

On a positive note, you confirmed that slamming shut that big old bay window on this stone is a good idea so thank you for that. You also didn't say that this tourmaline is hideous which I consider to be a good thing considering this is my first post.

Thanks again!

 

[LD]

Re: An Introduction and Question about Copper Bearing Tourma

I love your comment about being ruined if you see a true Paraiba! Unfortunately yes, you will be. From there on, it sets the benchmark and unfortunately helps to bankrupt you! So in some ways, you're probably best off not seeing one! I bought a number of very good examples before I bought one that I would consider a true Paraiba and from there on it was a slippery slope as I started comparing everything to that one and consequently my buying slowed to an almost stop (with only one or two purchased after that)! I'm a ruined woman!

Generally speaking I say not to recut because it can detrimentally affect value and colour. So, for example, if you have a neon blue stone with a window but then have to cut so much away that you end up with a stone half the size you started with, the effect on the cost is remarkable (ie your stone will be worth much much less). So a recut is stupid in those circumstances because the increased performance doesn't outweigh or match the decrease in value or in some cases rarity.

However, if you have a cuprian bearing tourmaline (that isn't a Paraiba) and you'd improve the look without too much carat weight loss then there's no reason why you shouldn't do it. Sometimes recutting a stone actually changes the colour dramatically and there are examples of where the end result has been hated by the stone owner. To my eye (and please correct me if I'm wrong) your stone is an olivey green with yellow and grey hues. My guess is that a recut would emphasize the modifiers but also darken the stone somewhat. It will also improve the performance so will be a much more "flashier" stone. So with your stone I think the overall look would improve without a loss to value (although you would need to get a new lab report - BUT that's not essential unless you are planning to insure or sell it). You need to research the market value of this stone to asssess whether you think insuring it is worthwhile for you. I think this is one of the rare times where I've said to recut a stone - I don't say it often!!!

BTW, true Paraiba coloured stones are so rare now and out of most people's reach financially so sometimes it's best to find a "normal" non-Paraiba tagged gemstone that is classed as a cuprian because some have fabulous colours without the price tag and are very affordable!

If you want to be partially ruined, there are photos of Paraiba Tourmalines on this website for you to see! I wish I could recall who posted it but there was one for sale in New York once that a lady went into and tried on. OMG it was just

 

[minousbijoux]

Re: An Introduction and Question about Copper Bearing Tourma

I don't want this to come off to harsh but I am afraid it will regardless..... and for that I apologize. Being an educational consumer forum I have to add my two cents. I sure do love me some Cu2 colored tourmalines
I like the color of your stone ..reminds me of a Namibian demantoid garnet. I would chop that puppy up and close that window...any color is better than no color in that massive Bay window(yes that is the dreaded Bay window you hear the old ones speak of under hushed breath).
Yes, please do a recut.

It's just that your's, and most consumers, idea of glow is not the same one talked about and written into the annals of lore in regards to pariaba/cuprian tourmaline. The "glow" and "neon" you read and hear about is something most of us mere mortals have never laid eyes upon. A few on here have like LD and TL. To have a moniker like "glow" or "neon" attached to a stone pretty much puts it into the color class of "vivid". If it's not color graded "vivid" then it doesn't glow...as simple as that.
I am pretty sure your idea of "glow" has something to do with brillance or fire(dispersion) or scintillation.
As TL puts it..."it should look like it has some sort of internal battery"

As for copper bearing /cuprian tourmalines in general...the public is getting hoodwinked and has been for years now by paying inflated prices for stones that have some little molecules that impart a color that is no different than stones colored by a different molecule but cost a fraction of the price.
Iron can, and does, produce the same exact color as copper. It's just that copper does a better job.... so once you cross that threshold where iron can't pump out anymore color and copper can...well...then you have a real cuprian tourmaline...a paraiba.

Nothing special about copper bearing tourmalines for the most part. Copper in tourmalines is not as rare as most think. It's actually found in quite a few places..... In at least 3 other Brazilian mines, other than Batlaha, mulungu, and alto dos quintos(the original 3 brazilian paraiba mines).
It's found in tourmalines in Namibia from a certain mine. They were even detecting copper in tourmalines 50 years before the Batalha strike. Warner (1935), Carobbi and Pieruccini (1946, 1947), and Staatz (1955)..all 4 mentioned or found amounts of copper in tourmaline but none found or related it to color(a chromophore).

Copper? Who cares. You can't see it can you??(needles???..so what, they are hampering the stones clarity and not helping it at all save for IDing it)

As for green copperbearing tourmalines...touchy subject. We all know that Cu+2 is the acting coloring chromophore in so called paraiba tourmalines..if the tourmaline was just colored by Cu+2 alone it would be that fantastic glowy turquoise blue to blue color every one loves.
When you trend towards the green colors you are incorporating Mn and Ti into the lattice and when you move towards the violets, and purples you are adding Mn to the lattice.
When you are buying paraibas you are buying for the copper but when you get these other transition elements into the fold they sort of muddle and displace the y-site which could have been a good place for the copper molecules. So when you have say an Mn+2 molecule in place of a Cu+2 molecule you are downgrading the effect of the Cu to produce the "neon"/"glow". As an example: say you have a green paraiba? doesn't really make sense..the Cu+2 is producing a turquoise or blue color stone but you have a green one in you hand. Where is the color the copper molecules are imparting on the stone? Don't see any blue just green or purple for that matter. If you have a blue-green stone or a green-blue stone then you are getting some effect from the copper molecules but as you move closer to the green end you get less paraiba-like.

Cu+2(copper)=turquoise(blue)="neon"/"glow"
Less blue/turquoise in the stone = less copper acting as a chromophore = less "glow"/"neon" effect.

Rossman says the green coloring in Paraiba tourmaline is due to Ti and Mn others say Iron.
Copper ONLY produces that cyan/turquoise color in tourmaline. Not green or that blue-green color. As an example this green one that the OP posted is far away from what "paraiba " is suspossed to be. That green is not being produced by copper in the slightest, but by either iron or a Titanium/Manganese.

Green = Iron or Titanium/manganese chromophores. it's really no different than a regular green tourmaline. It has to have that blue/turquoise/cyan to be a paraiba..whether that be blue-green, green-blue mix or blue.(turquoise, cyan, windex, etc)

If not for the finds in Batalha the Paraiba/cuprian tourmalines would just be a footnote in gem history. Many a tourmaline has copper in it but not many have suffcient amounts to give you that whopping glow/neon quality. Thta ebay seller from another thread that had cuprians labeled from Namibia..copper is found in tourmalines from Namibia but none have copper than acts as a chromophore..ie. "trace amount".
Nice cuprians/copperbearing are actually a dime a dozen. You have to have a significant amount of copper to make it go BAM. I believe that labs are adding fuel to the frenzy by detecting trace amount of copper in stones and labeling them cuprian/paraiba which technically is true but the amounts are so little(by weight) that either the copper is not acting as a chromophore or it's acting on the color in such little amounts.

Once again I am sorry ahead of time if my post came off as "attack-like" towards your stone...that is not my intention. I copied portions of it from prior post I had written regarding the same subject so it's more like a synopsis I guess.
Thanks for posting your stone and I think the color is great but the window has to go!!!!

Glad you're back and posting. But where pray tell are the amazing pics of the rough crystals? Barrett, no slacking off now that there's another woman in the picture.

 

[Gawi109]

Re: An Introduction and Question about Copper Bearing Tourma

Thanks LD! You're very lucky to have real deal paraibas even if you are "ruined". Lol.

You are correct when you say that stone is olivey green with yellow and gray hues. I finally saw it outside where it is more of a light minty yellow green color. I really do like the color both indoors and out. It reminds me of Spring.

I don't really care about getting the stone re-certified because I plan to have it set and wear it. I don't think it's worth getting insured so I won't need a certificate for that either. If I decide to sell it or pass it on in a few years I'll re-visit the certification issue then but, for now, I don't feel it is necessary.

I have seen many of the paraiba photos posted here including the one in the New York store. It took some self control to put that ring on and then take it off. Serious willpower. What a gorgeous stone though.

Thanks again for your input. I'll e-mail the cutter when I get a chance and see what he says. I will also post pictures of the stone after the "shave and a haircut". I suspect that I might lose a greater percentage of the carat weight on this one than I did on the spessartite pear because this is a deeper stone and more will have to be removed to close up that window but that's okay. If all goes well it will be a better stone in the end even if it is smaller.

 

[LD]

Re: An Introduction and Question about Copper Bearing Tourma

Actually I don't think the shave and haircut (love that term) will be too drastic. You may be surprised and pleased that you won't lose too much weight.

BTW, just for reference, the labs produce reports not certifications. They actually don't certify anything they just produce a report on what the stone is/isn't! Hope that helps!

Thanks for saying you'll post before and after photos. It's great always to see the change and a review of how it's gone. Good luck!

 

[colorluvr]

Re: An Introduction and Question about Copper Bearing Tourma

I have two "good sized" tourmalines that I had the pavilion recut and they both came out well. I was told by the cutter that you often lose around 20-25% of the weight because the "bits" removed from the pavilion can represent a surprising amount of weight, however, they still face up the same and look WAY better.

If you are going to set the stone and don't plan on reselling (so the total ct. weight isn't as important) I would definitely have a lapidary that you trust look at the stone for their expert opinion. Most of the stones I've had recut have been a success, but I've sent a couple in and was told that they wouldn't suggest a recut for a variety of reasons.

Good luck! I do have to chime it that a recut CAN change the color of a stone. I have a tourmaline that was called yellow by a Thai lab and the it definitely looked way more yellow with a hint of green before I had the pavilion recut. After the recut, the performance of the stone was way better, but it looked a lot more green than it did before the recut.

 

[LD]

Re: An Introduction and Question about Copper Bearing Tourma

I have two "good sized" tourmalines that I had the pavilion recut and they both came out well. I was told by the cutter that you often lose around 20-25% of the weight because the "bits" removed from the pavilion can represent a surprising amount of weight, however, they still face up the same and look WAY better.

If you are going to set the stone and don't plan on reselling (so the total ct. weight isn't as important) I would definitely have a lapidary that you trust look at the stone for their expert opinion. Most of the stones I've had recut have been a success, but I've sent a couple in and was told that they wouldn't suggest a recut for a variety of reasons.

Good luck! I do have to chime it that a recut CAN change the color of a stone. I have a tourmaline that was called yellow by a Thai lab and the it definitely looked way more yellow with a hint of green before I had the pavilion recut. After the recut, the performance of the stone was way better, but it looked a lot more green than it did before the recut.

Slight threadjack - apologies!

Colorluvr - do you by any chance have before/after photos? The reason I ask is that there are so few examples this board and its great to see them. Maybe we need to start a thread. I know it's not yours but there was somebody who posted (about 3 years or so ago) with a disasterous change to colour after a cut.

 

[colorluvr]

Re: An Introduction and Question about Copper Bearing Tourma

Slight threadjack - apologies!

Colorluvr - do you by any chance have before/after photos? The reason I ask is that there are so few examples this board and its great to see them. Maybe we need to start a thread. I know it's not yours but there was somebody who posted (about 3 years or so ago) with a disasterous change to colour after a cut.

Done!