Anti-Engagement Ring???

[LitigatorChick]

An interesting article... http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20080605.wring05/BNStory/lifeFamily/home

 

[NewEnglandLady]

I can understand how the whole process of getting married can be financially intimidating: the ring, the wedding, a house (usually) within a short time period. I get it.

What I don't get is why a man would stay with a woman who was demanding a ring that is a certain amount of money or a certain carat weight. If a man is committing to that kind of woman for life, then I'm sorry, but he'd better just get used to it. It's going to be the same about the house, the cars, the childrens' strollers. I'm tired of hearing men complain about their girlfriends and wives "demands" when they made a conscious decision to commit knowing her personality.

Maybe I'm just a weirdo because a traditional e-ring was more important to my DH than it was to me, but if I told him that I wanted a ring that was more than he wanted to spend I would have more respect for him if he said "If it's that important to you, then you can buy it for yourself" than if he were to say "Sure, hon, whatever you want."

So for men who feel bullied into buying an expensive ring, grow a backbone and say "no".

 

[mercoledi]

Here here NEL!

 

[LaurenThePartier]

Date: 6/5/2008 9:59:34 AM
Author: NewEnglandLady
I can understand how the whole process of getting married can be financially intimidating: the ring, the wedding, a house (usually) within a short time period. I get it.

What I don''t get is why a man would stay with a woman who was demanding a ring that is a certain amount of money or a certain carat weight. If a man is committing to that kind of woman for life, then I''m sorry, but he''d better just get used to it. It''s going to be the same about the house, the cars, the childrens'' strollers. I''m tired of hearing men complain about their girlfriends and wives ''demands'' when they made a conscious decision to commit knowing her personality.

Maybe I''m just a weirdo because a traditional e-ring was more important to my DH than it was to me, but if I told him that I wanted a ring that was more than he wanted to spend I would have more respect for him if he said ''If it''s that important to you, then you can buy it for yourself'' than if he were to say ''Sure, hon, whatever you want.''

So for men who feel bullied into buying an expensive ring, grow a backbone and say ''no''.

I completely agree, NEL!

What I also agree with in that article is the rapidly expanding idea of an engagement exchange. I don''t believe engagement should be such a one-sided "tradition", and I''m tired of hearing men complain about the one-sidedness of it all. Just suggest a new "tradition" for your new family and quit your b*tching!

My husband gave me an engagement ring because he wanted to, not because there was an ounce of demand on my part. I wanted to give him something he could cherish, so I gave him the down payment for his dream car shortly after we were married.

 

[Pandora II]

In the UK we haven''t quite reached these levels.

An engagement ring is expected and the norm, but spending a lot of money would be seen as weird.

I''ve been asked to sort out an engagement ring for a friend who''s a hedgefunder. The budget is $8k. She is hoping that his budget is $6k, and terribly worried that what she wants is too expensive: An ec blue sapphire with 0.60 tctw ec diamond sidestones in platinum.

Lots of my friends whose husbands earn $200k plus a year would think spending more than $10k on an e-ring was crazy.

All these people are in their mid-30s.

I must admit (and please don''t flame me for this) that when I see people in their early 20''s buying $20k plus e-rings I do think

!

I would put a house, pension plan and savings way ahead of a ring (and I''m a total bling addict). I''d also be terrified wearing it!

 

[musey]

Ditto to NEL and LTP...

If any traditions, be them deeply ingrained in society or relatively new, don''t agree with your sensibilities--don''t participate. If your significant other isn''t okay with that, then you''re with the wrong person. As simple as that.

 

[musey]

Date: 6/5/2008 11:48:57 AM
Author: Pandora II

I must admit (and please don't flame me for this) that when I see people in their early 20's buying $20k plus e-rings I do think

!

Dit-TO! I'm sure that there's no way to know these peoples' financial status, but 99% of the time it just doesn't make any sense in that age group.

I feel this way quite frequently while perusing the LIW forum. There are many mentions of "I don't want anything too elaborate, just a 2-2.5 ct in a simple solitaire" coming from under-25y/o posters

(as though a 2ct+ diamond in and of itself is not 'elaborate'... maybe they just mean the setting style?). I think the idea of what is a "nice size" or "big" has been rapidly increasing in recent years... or maybe I'm just becoming more aware of it...


P.S. Before I get labeled a hypocrite, let me disclaim that my 2ct cost well under $10k...

 

[NewEnglandLady]

I just wanted to chime in again and say that I agree with all of you!

I was just having a conversation with a coworker a couple of weeks ago about the "cost of marriage". Her fiance is in business school and is in considerable debt and she said "I would have liked a larger stone, but I only got two carats because my fiance was on a 'student' budget." A student budget? WTF? I said "If you're already in debt isn't your budget zero dollars?"

The thing is, if you have the money to pay for something then it shouldn't matter to anybody what you buy. But even if you're in your twenties and a budget of $20K or more seems reasonable based on what is in savings, for me it's impossible to ignore all the significant financial hurdles you face when you are younger.

 

[musey]

Date: 6/5/2008 12:54:26 PM
Author: NewEnglandLady
I just wanted to chime in again and say that I agree with all of you!

I was just having a conversation with a coworker a couple of weeks ago about the ''cost of marriage''. Her fiance is in business school and is in considerable debt and she said ''I would have liked a larger stone, but I only got two carats because my fiance was on a ''student'' budget.'' A student budget? WTF? I said ''If you''re already in debt isn''t your budget zero dollars?''

How is a two carat stone a "student budget" stone?!? I must have been organizing MY budget incorrectly while I was a student!!

 

[neatfreak]

Date: 6/5/2008 1:10:49 PM
Author: musey

Date: 6/5/2008 12:54:26 PM

Author: NewEnglandLady

I just wanted to chime in again and say that I agree with all of you!


I was just having a conversation with a coworker a couple of weeks ago about the ''cost of marriage''. Her fiance is in business school and is in considerable debt and she said ''I would have liked a larger stone, but I only got two carats because my fiance was on a ''student'' budget.'' A student budget? WTF? I said ''If you''re already in debt isn''t your budget zero dollars?''

How is a two carat stone a ''student budget'' stone?!? I must have been organizing MY budget incorrectly while I was a student!!

Lol me too...

 

[FrekeChild]

She only got 2 carats on a student budget?! I''m insisting on 5 carats and my FF has only $45k in student loans.

 

[rockzilla]

Business school "student" budgets are interesting - being in an industry where almost everyone goes to/comes from business school, I have heard a lot about this.

Most of the time, people who end up at top bschools are the highly competitive type. A good chunk of them are investment bankers or management consultants. They are high earners (at least 100k+) and are going to bschool often with the explicit expectation that they will make mucho $s when they get out.

One of the reasons we''ve gotten engaged (and will get married) before bschool is to avoid this type of strange competition. People one-upping each other on the ring and the wedding is not unheard of. Also, with the amount of debt people take out, and the vast amount of student loans that are given above and beyond tuition/living expense, its not uncommon to hear about people using 10 or 20 or $30k in "student" loans for things like rings, weddings, vacations, and house downpayments on top of $100k+ for tuition etc. The theory is - interest rates are low, payment terms are good, and they''ll either pay it off with their first couple of bonuses or amortize it over the next 30 years.

Not saying I agree with this scenario at ALL - but just wanted to share the attitudes that I''ve experienced. Many people see business school as a time for fun, a time to take a break from hardcore jobs and build their networks, etc. The attitude around money is often very different than what you''d see in other grad school areas, like PhDs, etc because if you weren''t confident that you were going to be an extremely successful (success=$$ in this case) you often wouldn''t be going to bschool.

 

[elle_chris]

Wondering if the ladies are insisting on it because their fiance's buds are giving their girls larger and larger stones.
From what i've seen with a few couples i know, the guys had to one up eachother every time one of them got engaged. Don't think it was pressure from the ladies.
I don't know for a fact but i'm pretty sure at least one couple went into debt because of it.

edited to add: Rockzilla, we posted at the same time. I agree 100%

 

[Haven]

I SO love you gals.

Ditto, ditto, and ditto.

 

[ursulawrite]

Date: 6/5/2008 1:34:06 PM
Author: elle_chris
Wondering if the ladies are insisting on it because their fiance''s buds are giving their girls larger and larger stones.
From what i''ve seen with a few couples i know, the guys had to one up eachother every time one of them got engaged. Don''t think it was pressure from the ladies.
I don''t know for a fact but i''m pretty sure at least one couple went into debt because of it.

edited to add: Rockzilla, we posted at the same time. I agree 100%

I''ve noticed that, too--that it''s the guys doing the pushing, rather than the ladies. I suspect the fear of being ridiculed by their peers--for some men, at least--is on a par with wanting to get the purchase "right" for their future wives.

 

[Pandora II]

LOL, I''m so glad I''m not the only one.

I tell you, I''ve been thinking I was in the wrong holiday jobs when I was a student.

I think men do get very competitive, or worried about it. The guys who come to me for help with their e-rings are always stuck about telling me what the budget is and ask if I mind telling them what most people are spending. The look of relief when I tell them that it''s between $3k - $10k is amazing. Not to say that I wouldn''t love someone to say hey they''ve got $50k to spend - what can I get them!

I bought FI a digital SLR camera as an engagement present - he''s looking for an upgrade already. I told him that if he can upgrade, well ...

 

[musey]

Date: 6/5/2008 1:57:54 PM
Author: Pandora II
I tell you, I''ve been thinking I was in the wrong holiday jobs when I was a student.

Well, people kept telling me that exotic dancing and prostitution both paid well... I guess I should have listened!

 

[FrekeChild]

Date: 6/5/2008 2:01:20 PM
Author: musey

Date: 6/5/2008 1:57:54 PM
Author: Pandora II
I tell you, I''ve been thinking I was in the wrong holiday jobs when I was a student.

Well, people kept telling me that exotic dancing and prostitution both paid well... I guess I should have listened!

 

[NewEnglandLady]

Sorry about the threadjacking...I easily wonder off on a tangent. Rockzilla, you are right. They were in management consulting, he went to harvard bus. school and now she''s going as well and the cost of a 2 carat ring seemed like a drop in the bucket compared to their overall grad school debt. He did take out an extra school loan for the ring. The thing is that it works for them and they plan to upgrade after graduation. To each his own!

 

[NewEnglandLady]

Date: 6/5/2008 2:01:20 PM
Author: musey

Date: 6/5/2008 1:57:54 PM
Author: Pandora II
I tell you, I''ve been thinking I was in the wrong holiday jobs when I was a student.

Well, people kept telling me that exotic dancing and prostitution both paid well... I guess I should have listened!

Haha, Musey, it''s not too late!! How about amateur night for your bachelorette party?

 

[rockzilla]

Date: 6/5/2008 2:07:22 PM
Author: NewEnglandLady
Sorry about the threadjacking...I easily wonder off on a tangent. Rockzilla, you are right. They were in management consulting, he went to harvard bus. school and now she''s going as well and the cost of a 2 carat ring seemed like a drop in the bucket compared to their overall grad school debt. He did take out an extra school loan for the ring. The thing is that it works for them and they plan to upgrade after graduation. To each his own!

LOL - I may very well work with this guy

 

[brazen_irish_hussy]

I simply can''t imagine. Even the money which is going to the wedding my parents are paying for irks me since I am so practical.
My ring cost just under $2,000 and I wouldn''t have it any other way. He got something we could afford and it is the ring of my dreams. For me though, I didn''t want a diamond, so that made it easier since I wasn''t paying into DeBeers racket.
We didn''t have any money at the time of the proposal since we were students in Europe, so he got me a really beautiful $120 ring that I wore until we got back and took care of mine and I still love that little ring.

Would I love a color change saphire or great alexandrite? Yes, but those are out of the price range at the moment and so I will happily wait with my husband until I have them. I would much rather wait on a fancy ring than on my life with my FI.

Of course, we are the youngest in our group to get engaged and my parents believe I should provide for myself so there is no need to compete of prove anything. Even so, I would still want the ring on my finger because my FI put it there.

 

[jewelerman]

The engagement ring is a fairly modern social expectation.The idea may go back for hundreds of years but the idea that the bride MUST have a ring of engagement with a diamond has only been since the 1920s.In the victorian period women wore any stone that was in fashion at the time...pearls and turquiose on a band was popular,as was garnet or light blue sapphires.Debeers created a diamond is forever campaine because the war had created a huge dip in diamond ring sales.

 

[Stephanie]

Date: 6/5/2008 2:01:20 PM
Author: musey

Date: 6/5/2008 1:57:54 PM
Author: Pandora II
I tell you, I''ve been thinking I was in the wrong holiday jobs when I was a student.

Well, people kept telling me that exotic dancing and prostitution both paid well... I guess I should have listened!

How funny...

 

[softly softly]

Date: 6/5/2008 2:07:22 PM
Author: NewEnglandLady
Sorry about the threadjacking...I easily wonder off on a tangent. Rockzilla, you are right. They were in management consulting, he went to harvard bus. school and now she''s going as well and the cost of a 2 carat ring seemed like a drop in the bucket compared to their overall grad school debt. He did take out an extra school loan for the ring. The thing is that it works for them and they plan to upgrade after graduation. To each his own!

But isn''t this the sort of irresponsible borrowing that has contributed to the current crisis in debt management? I''m sorry, but I really struggle to understand the concept of spending money you assume you will be making in the future. And what good is earning a good wage if a large portion of it is eaten up in interest on loan repayments. My dad always tells me that it isn''t what you earn, but how much you save that counts and the older I get the more sense this makes. I''m all for enjoying the fruits of your labour, but shouldn''t the labour part come first???

 

[GemView]

I'm still reading the article -- not quite finished yet -- and can't believe there are women who are upset about 10 carat rings not being good enough! Who are these people? Do they really exist? I can understand, maybe, if a Donald Trump type proposed with a 2 carat ring, but ordinary middle class gals acting this way?

I'm not entirely above it all, however. My diamond is nowhere near as big as those mentioned in the article, but we could have seen our wedding day come and go by now if we had simply opted for matching wedding bands and put the money toward the cost of an intimate church wedding (we have been engaged 2 years now). However, I will not lie: Growing up, I didn't give much thought to the whole engagement/wedding scenario, but I did know early on that I wanted something sparkly! Perhaps that is because my mother lost her original wedding rings when we were out shopping one day around the age of 4. I used to sit there gazing at her wedding album wishing I could see that ring again. (To this day, I remember how panicked she got. We were in a SEARS and she was buying my dad undershirts when it slipped into the bin never to be seen again.) Anyhow, I always knew that I wanted something that went all the way back to our wedding day, not something that, for whatever reason, I no longer had years later when looking at the wedding album. So I set my hopes on a 1 carat colorless, ideal cut diamond -- knowing that for sentimental reasons I would never have any desire to trade up to a bigger stone -- and that's exactly what we got. Since we don't want to finance a wedding and have no outside financial help from our parents, we're now in the saving phase. But I'm not going to complain. I knew what I was getting into when we started talking about e-rings and wedding dates. My logic was/is the wedding is only a day, the commitment is a lifetime and the ring is what I'll be looking at far more often than a wedding album.

The more I think about it, the less I want the stress of a wedding anyhow. Watching 2 yrs of Bridzilla on WE TV can do that to you.

Having had several friends, three sisters and two future brothers-in-law marry in the past five years, there really wasn't time for us to give serious thought to our own plans anyhow, but now I'm beginning to think it was just as well. I used to think I wanted the dress, the cake, the friends, the family and the wedding album, but I am not in the best of health and don't need the stress. (I can just see myself holed up in the hospital on my wedding day with yet another disabling attack of sciatic pain/ridculopathy making it impossible to walk two feet. Missing my own wedding day would be worse than eloping!)

As for the debt aspects of rings and weddings, I totally agree with rockzilla on this point. Except it isn't just business school grad students. One of those aforementioned weddings I attended in the past five years were for two med school grads. They had to pay their own way through college and accrued something like $1 million in combined debt. Comparatively speaking, financing the ring and the wedding was a drop in the debt bucket. They went on to buy a house, start a family and open a private practice -- and mind you, they don't drive high priced cars or wear designer clothing -- yet they are still in a huge financial hole despite an income in the mid six figures. Trust me, people who have gone to school without scholarships and mommy and daddy's money already have a noose of debt around their necks no matter what income level they are at. So it is not entirely surprising that we are seeing an attitude of "What the heck. I'm already in it up to my neck," and "If I wait, I'll be 50 before I pay it all off and by that logic we'll never be able to start a family either. It's now or never, debt or no debt."

Only time will tell if they win the gamble -- or if the consequences of such widespread debt tolerant consumer behavior will make the mortgage/credit crisis look like a dry run in hindsight. I have a feeling the next 10-20 years will be one heck of a wild ride in terms of the overall economy. After all, this is the first time since the Great Depression that Americans have a negative savings rate. It doesn't just mean that a large percentage of Americans are failing to save for their retirement, kids' college funds, etc., but, in fact, owe more than they make. When I was in college, for example, I went to a state school and came out owing less than $10K. My friend went to a private school, and in the space of four years they raised tuition something like 300 percent! There is no end in sight to the inflation of higher education and if something is not done, I fear only the elite will be able to send their children to college in the next 20-odd years. When you take the cost of higher education and factor in the energy and health care inflation problem, I hate to say it but it looks as if we are facing the "perfect economic storm". But because we are now a global society/economy, what happens in the US doesn't necessarily confine itself to the US economy. The credit card companies are going to have to stop issuing easy credit, and when people can no longer whip out the plastic they will no longer be able to keep up misleading financial appearances.

 

[Dancing Fire]

Date: 6/5/2008 12:54:26 PM
Author: NewEnglandLady
I just wanted to chime in again and say that I agree with all of you!

I was just having a conversation with a coworker a couple of weeks ago about the ''cost of marriage''. Her fiance is in business school and is in considerable debt and she said ''I would have liked a larger stone, but I only got two carats because my fiance was on a ''student'' budget.'' A student budget? WTF? I said ''If you''re already in debt isn''t your budget zero dollars?''

he should of DUMP her!!

 

[Dancing Fire]

Date: 6/5/2008 1:29:18 PM
Author: rockzilla
Business school ''student'' budgets are interesting - being in an industry where almost everyone goes to/comes from business school, I have heard a lot about this.

Most of the time, people who end up at top bschools are the highly competitive type. A good chunk of them are investment bankers or management consultants. They are high earners (at least 100k+) and are going to bschool often with the explicit expectation that they will make mucho $s when they get out.

One of the reasons we''ve gotten engaged (and will get married) before bschool is to avoid this type of strange competition. People one-upping each other on the ring and the wedding is not unheard of. Also, with the amount of debt people take out, and the vast amount of student loans that are given above and beyond tuition/living expense, its not uncommon to hear about people using 10 or 20 or $30k in ''student'' loans for things like rings, weddings, vacations, and house downpayments on top of $100k+ for tuition etc. The theory is - interest rates are low, payment terms are good, and they''ll either pay it off with their first couple of bonuses or amortize it over the next 30 years.

Not saying I agree with this scenario at ALL - but just wanted to share the attitudes that I''ve experienced. Many people see business school as a time for fun, a time to take a break from hardcore jobs and build their networks, etc. The attitude around money is often very different than what you''d see in other grad school areas, like PhDs, etc because if you weren''t confident that you were going to be an extremely successful (success=$$ in this case) you often wouldn''t be going to bschool.

crazy young couples

counting their chickens before they hatch.

 

[Pandora II]

Date: 6/5/2008 10:25:59 PM
Author: GemView
I''m still reading the article -- not quite finished yet -- and can''t believe there are women who are upset about 10 carat rings not being good enough! Who are these people? Do they really exist? I can understand, maybe, if a Donald Trump type proposed with a 2 carat ring, but ordinary middle class gals acting this way?

I''m not entirely above it all, however. My diamond is nowhere near as big as those mentioned in the article, but we could have seen our wedding day come and go by now if we had simply opted for matching wedding bands and put the money toward the cost of an intimate church wedding (we have been engaged 2 years now). However, I will not lie: Growing up, I didn''t give much thought to the whole engagement/wedding scenario, but I did know early on that I wanted something sparkly! Perhaps that is because my mother lost her original wedding rings when we were out shopping one day around the age of 4. I used to sit there gazing at her wedding album wishing I could see that ring again. (To this day, I remember how panicked she got. We were in a SEARS and she was buying my dad undershirts when it slipped into the bin never to be seen again.) Anyhow, I always knew that I wanted something that went all the way back to our wedding day, not something that, for whatever reason, I no longer had years later when looking at the wedding album. So I set my hopes on a 1 carat colorless, ideal cut diamond -- knowing that for sentimental reasons I would never have any desire to trade up to a bigger stone -- and that''s exactly what we got. Since we don''t want to finance a wedding and have no outside financial help from our parents, we''re now in the saving phase. But I''m not going to complain. I knew what I was getting into when we started talking about e-rings and wedding dates. My logic was/is the wedding is only a day, the commitment is a lifetime and the ring is what I''ll be looking at far more often than a wedding album.

The more I think about it, the less I want the stress of a wedding anyhow. Watching 2 yrs of Bridzilla on WE TV can do that to you.

Having had several friends, three sisters and two future brothers-in-law marry in the past five years, there really wasn''t time for us to give serious thought to our own plans anyhow, but now I''m beginning to think it was just as well. I used to think I wanted the dress, the cake, the friends, the family and the wedding album, but I am not in the best of health and don''t need the stress. (I can just see myself holed up in the hospital on my wedding day with yet another disabling attack of sciatic pain/ridculopathy making it impossible to walk two feet. Missing my own wedding day would be worse than eloping!)

As for the debt aspects of rings and weddings, I totally agree with rockzilla on this point. Except it isn''t just business school grad students. One of those aforementioned weddings I attended in the past five years were for two med school grads. They had to pay their own way through college and accrued something like $1 million in combined debt. Comparatively speaking, financing the ring and the wedding was a drop in the debt bucket. They went on to buy a house, start a family and open a private practice -- and mind you, they don''t drive high priced cars or wear designer clothing -- yet they are still in a huge financial hole despite an income in the mid six figures. Trust me, people who have gone to school without scholarships and mommy and daddy''s money already have a noose of debt around their necks no matter what income level they are at. So it is not entirely surprising that we are seeing an attitude of ''What the heck. I''m already in it up to my neck,'' and ''If I wait, I''ll be 50 before I pay it all off and by that logic we''ll never be able to start a family either. It''s now or never, debt or no debt.''

Only time will tell if they win the gamble -- or if the consequences of such widespread debt tolerant consumer behavior will make the mortgage/credit crisis look like a dry run in hindsight. I have a feeling the next 10-20 years will be one heck of a wild ride in terms of the overall economy. After all, this is the first time since the Great Depression that Americans have a negative savings rate. It doesn''t just mean that a large percentage of Americans are failing to save for their retirement, kids'' college funds, etc., but, in fact, owe more than they make. When I was in college, for example, I went to a state school and came out owing less than $10K. My friend went to a private school, and in the space of four years they raised tuition something like 300 percent! There is no end in sight to the inflation of higher education and if something is not done, I fear only the elite will be able to send their children to college in the next 20-odd years. When you take the cost of higher education and factor in the energy and health care inflation problem, I hate to say it but it looks as if we are facing the ''perfect economic storm''. But because we are now a global society/economy, what happens in the US doesn''t necessarily confine itself to the US economy. The credit card companies are going to have to stop issuing easy credit, and when people can no longer whip out the plastic they will no longer be able to keep up misleading financial appearances.

I''m so sorry, I have spinal stenosis and two herniated discs on top of that.

I''ve had one lot of surgery that reduced the pain and paralysis is my left leg by about 40%, and two other lots that did nothing. It''s now back again and in both legs this time. Sadly they won''t operate again for 15 years because of my age and the newness of artifical discs. They also took away a lot of bone the first time.

I now have Had a permanent cocktail of Tramadol and Lamotrigine and add in 60mg of codeine and 10mg of amitrypriline as and when I need it for the last 5 years. I do pretty well on it, but I couldn''t live without it. I used to be on 60mg of morphine a day for 2 years, which I still went to work on, but made me feel completely out of it!

I''ve been on just about every pain management course existing with no real results. I''ve resigned myself to the meds and at least I have a near to normal life. That said, it''s driving me nuts this morning! It''s one of those can''t sit, can''t stand, hop around and can''t stop moving my feet mornings. Grrrrrrr

I know only too well how crippling it can be - and to make things worse you look so well that people don''t realise how disabling it can be!

 

[sputat]

Interesting article.

My girlfriend in Los Angeles thinks that a $50k engagement ring is the norm. I was taken aback and mentioned that that''s somebody''s annual income. When she told me that she asked her boyfriend if it''s a lot of money for an engagement ring, I cringed.