Are Bow Tie Effect Negative To Colored Diamonds?

[PumpkinOrange]

Is it bad? Coz the bow tie effect seems to appear like a color hole in a colored diamond when viewed at certain angles at lighting environment.

 

[valeria101]

.

Stab in the dark:

I cannot make a cute excuse for the distracting contrast in your example - today.

Otherwise, bow-tie patterns are usually brighter therefore less intensely colored & whether this is nice or not might be a matter of degree & taste & the intrinsic colour of the rough ...

YF explains the matter of brighteness versus colour with an OMC - WWW.

I may see the same whitening over the grand bow-tie of this little old brilliant style marquise WWW - which I rather like (a Harlequin pattern !).

2c

 

[PumpkinOrange]

.

Stab in the dark:

I cannot make a cute excuse for the distracting contrast in your example - today.

Otherwise, bow-tie patterns are usually brighter therefore less intensely colored & whether this is nice or not might be a matter of degree & taste & the intrinsic colour of the rough ...

YF explains the matter of brighteness versus colour with an OMC - WWW.

I may see the same whitening over the grand bow-tie of this little old brilliant style marquise WWW - which I rather like (a Harlequin pattern !).

2c

So a white or colorless bow tie effect is not a negative and as bad as a dark or black bow tie effect?

Coz some white bow tie effect tends to lessen the color of vivid colored diamonds making them appear lighter color also when photographed the white or colorless bow tie effect looks black?

 

[valeria101]

GIA 'Fancy' grades take into account such optical effects ... You might imagine how this works at the margins of the range of colour accepted for each grade. There are tomes of speculation !

Face-down WWW

Face-up WWW



Re. photography: the arrow pattern of RBC is a similar optical array - somewhat easier to black-out than the random bow-tie [I am trying to make a point relating to ASET zones - at the wrong hour of the day !]

 

[Rockdiamond]

In general, a pear shape will show more color at the pointy end. But this is not always a negative.
Personally, I would be bothered with a static dark area in the center.
But if the bowtie is very active and lights up with a little motion, and the contrast ( darkness) and brightness blend, it can be very attractive

 

[Rockdiamond]

GIA 'Fancy' grades take into account such optical effects ... You might imagine how this works at the margins of the range of colour accepted for each grade. There are tomes of speculation !

Face-down WWW

Face-up WWW




Re. photography: the arrow pattern of RBC is a similar optical array - somewhat easier to black-out than the random bow-tie [I am trying to make a point relating to ASET zones - at the wrong hour of the day !]

One of the things we've learned, having Yoram cut fancy colors for us, is that the sparkle from "crushed ice" really evens out the color.
But as I wrote above, on a FCD with color which is not consistent across the stone, blending can be a great asset.

 

[valeria101]

the sparkle from "crushed ice" really evens out the color

Some cut designs that seem to push this effect to the extreme look surreal to me:

WWW

- the virtual facets are so small, these remind me of snow WWW more than crushed ice ! No question that the stunt works.

Yet, the GemConcepts yellows cited above, with their broad flickers of white light are perhaps what I came to expect from colored diamonds ... For depth of colour alone, there are more suitable materials.

Now that I am thinking, I remember seeing some deep yellow diamonds lit up by YF, but not light yellows cut for colour. Was there any attempt ?

 

[Rockdiamond]

Now that I am thinking, I remember seeing some deep yellow diamonds lit up by YF, but not light yellows cut for colour. Was there any attempt ?

Yes valeria- we've had Yoram cut everything from O-P color, down through some crazy deep colored orangey stones...like this one

 

[PumpkinOrange]

In general, a pear shape will show more color at the pointy end. But this is not always a negative.
Personally, I would be bothered with a static dark area in the center.
But if the bowtie is very active and lights up with a little motion, and the contrast ( darkness) and brightness blend, it can be very attractive

The problem is the bow tie effect seems to make the vivid diamond appear a lighter shade like fancy light instead of vivid in some lighting conditions. The bow tie looks like a color hole and it changes from dark to colorless bow tie when the stone moves even though the diamond has an even color distribution which makes me wonder why the bow tie effect seems to make the color look uneven despite having an even color distribution grade on the cert?

I have OCD and a perfectionist so a little imperfection tends to bother me as my attention only notices the flaws.

 

[Rockdiamond]

I get your point pumpkin -
I don't think I it's OCD to want a great looking stone. The picture doesn't look like a vivid saturation to me but pics don't always tell the full story.
I can't speak about the diamond in the picture because I've not examined it personally - but if you're looking at it in person and the "color zoning" is a bother it's likely not the stone for you.

There are indeed pear shape diamonds that have even sparkle and color.
And yes, the GIA "even" designation doesn't take into account uneven color due to cutting style. Weird but that's how it is.

 

[PumpkinOrange]

I get your point pumpkin -
I don't think I it's OCD to want a great looking stone. The picture doesn't look like a vivid saturation to me but pics don't always tell the full story.
I can't speak about the diamond in the picture because I've not examined it personally - but if you're looking at it in person and the "color zoning" is a bother it's likely not the stone for you.

There are indeed pear shape diamonds that have even sparkle and color.
And yes, the GIA "even" designation doesn't take into account uneven color due to cutting style. Weird but that's how it is.

I was referring to the orange diamond in my avatar. It is a fancy vivid yellowish orange with windowing effects and I'm not sure if the windowing effect on this is the worst bow tie effect coz I know most pear shapes should have at least some bow tie effects but the bow tie effects on this diamond bothers me at some lighting conditions coz I want this diamond to look like a vivid orange in all lighting conditions. Also it has a strong yellow fluorescence so I don't know if that is what causing this diamond to appear less vivid in some lighting conditions.

 

[kenny]

Bow tie and leakage (windowing) is not something I want in any diamond.

That said, FCD rough in nice colors is more rare and valuable than white rough.
Hence, FCDs are cut to save weight, and of course maximize the color saturation.
Grinding away more rough to achieve proportions that minimize bow tie is not exactly their top priority.
So, you're going to see ovals, marquise and pear FCDs with bowties.

Maybe that results in buyers just accepting bowties in FCDs moreso than they would in white diamonds (plenty of which have bowties too).
It wouldn't surprise me to hear a vendor spinning that into, bowties are just ignored in FCDs.
Anything for a sale, right?

You have the right to like or dislike anything you want, FCD or white diamonds.
It'll just make your diamond safari last longer and raise the price when you finally find that needle in the haystack.
An oval/pear/marquise with no bowtie means the rough right out of the earth just happened to be in shape/proportions that (when weight and color was maximized) the final diamond just happens to end up in proportions that do not show a bowtie. Lucky!

I like FCDs in top color with top cut for top light performance.
I rarely find them, but I do keep an eye out for them.
I'm sure posting this this angers FCD sellers; they they want to sell every diamond in their vault.
So sue me.

 

[valeria101]

.

I have been thinking about the fan of straight facets at the bow-tie area of this little FDO wonder since Yoram posted it bottom-up the other day:

Bottom-up

Face-up (close-up)

Face-up (perspective)

I am not sure it is possible to have less of a bow-tie with a classical cut, but, if anyone could plow through any remnants of such pattern ...

Would this be enough (absence of bow), to you ?

No words for the colour ! (bottom-right: WWW)


[Digressing, as usual: a less classical cut sans bow - FVYO & 'Medium Yellow' fluorescence ! ... Not sure if pears can be treated this way. The specifications of this one reminded me your pear, @PumpkinOrange]

 

[Rockdiamond]

I was referring to the orange diamond in my avatar. It is a fancy vivid yellowish orange with windowing effects and I'm not sure if the windowing effect on this is the worst bow tie effect coz I know most pear shapes should have at least some bow tie effects but the bow tie effects on this diamond bothers me at some lighting conditions coz I want this diamond to look like a vivid orange in all lighting conditions. Also it has a strong yellow fluorescence so I don't know if that is what causing this diamond to appear less vivid in some lighting conditions.

HI Pumpkin, The avatar pic is small....are there other pics of your stone? It doesn't look "bad" to me based on the one pic I see.
As I mentioned, there are indeed FCD pear shapes that don't show any bow tie at all- and also many that do show a bow tie in a pleasant way- of course there's also butt ugly bowties in some FCD ( and colorless) diamonds. There are indeed cutters of FCD's that do place a priority on even color ( we can call it "excellent light performance") I've seen existing stones improved many times by such cutters.
Such cutters can and do use techniques to lessen dark areas of a bow tie.
Based on the stones I've been seeing for the past few years, the average techniques for cutting have improved so much that truly "doggie makes" are less common in stones above say, .50ct. In the case of small high-value stones ( like pinks blues or pure orange) you will find more badly made ones because there's just not enough of the stone to allow improvement.
Important to remember that FCD's are sold based on how they look. It's pretty hard to sell a really badly cut stone.

Many diamonds that appear orange will have fluorescence. It's truly a wildcard, in some cases helping the orange, and in other cases lessening the orange.

I agree with Kenny about a percentage of diamond sellers using deception, or promoting false ideas to make a sale- it's a shame.
Sellers who sacrifice morals to make sales reflect poorly on the entire industry.

 

[valeria101]

a priority on even color

Just noticed the interesting handling of colour in two cushions on your list - the 1.89 WWW and the 4.03 WWW.

May I ask for a view of the pavilion ? ... if it isn't too much of a chore ...

Their style of cut does not seem to match almost anything around here (perhaps @doberman 's FIY from AoP ? - not shown loose, as far as I know) & is spectacular !

 

[Rockdiamond]

Just noticed the interesting handling of colour in two cushions on your list - the 1.89 WWW and the 4.03 WWW.

May I ask for a view of the pavilion ? ... if it isn't too much of a chore ...

Their style of cut does not seem to match almost anything around here (perhaps @doberman 's FIY from AoP ? - not shown loose, as far as I know) & is spectacular !

I hope I'm allowed to post this for educational purposes. Please remove if it's not cool admin.
A picture wasn't going to show the pavilion well enough to inform the discussion

You can see how the facets radiate out from the culet- and the four "skirt" facets on the pavilion below the girdle which create the "modified brilliant" facet design.
As I've written above- I see more and more stones along these lines- beautifully cut for color and even distribution. Without a doubt, increased technology is responsible.

 

[Rockdiamond]

Here we can see a partial "bowtie" which is related to the "skirt" facets below the girdle.
In person, the dark area wasn't a problem- but the pictures made it look pretty bad.
Longer rectangular diamonds are more prone to this type of issue.

 

[valeria101]

Thank you for this one !

No doubt that these were not made up on the back of an envelope ...

I am happy to see that I was not too wrong guessing what could be.

 

[valeria101]

Here we can see a partial "bowtie" which is related to the "skirt" facets below the girdle.

... which is what at least one extra pair of radial (bottom to girdle) facets in the novel cut might address ... perhaps ?

 

[Rockdiamond]

... which is what at least one extra pair of radial (bottom to girdle) facets in the novel cut might address ... perhaps ?

IMO, the cutter did make some small compromises in this case. Possible the added facets you've suggested would help. The stone was xx.01cts-so more work would have taken it below an important ct weight benchmark.
I think it's a good example for discussion.
Should the cutter have polished a bit more, losing the carat size if they could have addressed the issue?

BTW- it's entirely possible this is as good as it gets- tall rectangles present unique challenges.

 

[valeria101]

Should the cutter have polished a bit more, losing the carat size if they could have addressed the issue ?

Oh, I loath that question ! As if turning diamonds to dust would be some great achievment ... I am seeing them as slightly adorned natural perfection - cut (make) like makeup, KWIM ?

I would go to gerat length to change the cut model rather than make more dust. [nonsense, of course - diamonds are not cut in sculpture studios ... ]

In the little window you point to, I am seeing Crystal ...

 

[PumpkinOrange]

Bow tie and leakage (windowing) is not something I want in any diamond.

That said, FCD rough in nice colors is more rare and valuable than white rough.
Hence, FCDs are cut to save weight, and of course maximize the color saturation.
Grinding away more rough to achieve proportions that minimize bow tie is not exactly their top priority.
So, you're going to see ovals, marquise and pear FCDs with bowties.

Maybe that results in buyers just accepting bowties in FCDs moreso than they would in white diamonds (plenty of which have bowties too).
It wouldn't surprise me to hear a vendor spinning that into, bowties are just ignored in FCDs.
Anything for a sale, right?

You have the right to like or dislike anything you want, FCD or white diamonds.
It'll just make your diamond safari last longer and raise the price when you finally find that needle in the haystack.
An oval/pear/marquise with no bowtie means the rough right out of the earth just happened to be in shape/proportions that (when weight and color was maximized) the final diamond just happens to end up in proportions that do not show a bowtie. Lucky!

I like FCDs in top color with top cut for top light performance.
I rarely find them, but I do keep an eye out for them.
I'm sure posting this this angers FCD sellers; they they want to sell every diamond in their vault.
So sue me.

No one is getting sued for being honest. Actually I asked the vendor if the bow tie on this diamond will post a problem and I was told it is normal for pear cuts to have bow tie and the effect is minimal. But bcoz I am a perfectionist it becomes serious to me. Unfortunately I only realized it after the return policy expired and I bought this diamond at a bargain so I will still keep it coz I think it is worth more than what I pay for. I consider this as an investment and I like this more as an investment than for it's beauty I think.

 

[PumpkinOrange]

HI Pumpkin, The avatar pic is small....are there other pics of your stone? It doesn't look "bad" to me based on the one pic I see.
As I mentioned, there are indeed FCD pear shapes that don't show any bow tie at all- and also many that do show a bow tie in a pleasant way- of course there's also butt ugly bowties in some FCD ( and colorless) diamonds. There are indeed cutters of FCD's that do place a priority on even color ( we can call it "excellent light performance") I've seen existing stones improved many times by such cutters.
Such cutters can and do use techniques to lessen dark areas of a bow tie.
Based on the stones I've been seeing for the past few years, the average techniques for cutting have improved so much that truly "doggie makes" are less common in stones above say, .50ct. In the case of small high-value stones ( like pinks blues or pure orange) you will find more badly made ones because there's just not enough of the stone to allow improvement.
Important to remember that FCD's are sold based on how they look. It's pretty hard to sell a really badly cut stone.

Many diamonds that appear orange will have fluorescence. It's truly a wildcard, in some cases helping the orange, and in other cases lessening the orange.

I agree with Kenny about a percentage of diamond sellers using deception, or promoting false ideas to make a sale- it's a shame.
Sellers who sacrifice morals to make sales reflect poorly on the entire industry.

 

[PumpkinOrange]

HI Pumpkin, The avatar pic is small....are there other pics of your stone? It doesn't look "bad" to me based on the one pic I see.
As I mentioned, there are indeed FCD pear shapes that don't show any bow tie at all- and also many that do show a bow tie in a pleasant way- of course there's also butt ugly bowties in some FCD ( and colorless) diamonds. There are indeed cutters of FCD's that do place a priority on even color ( we can call it "excellent light performance") I've seen existing stones improved many times by such cutters.
Such cutters can and do use techniques to lessen dark areas of a bow tie.
Based on the stones I've been seeing for the past few years, the average techniques for cutting have improved so much that truly "doggie makes" are less common in stones above say, .50ct. In the case of small high-value stones ( like pinks blues or pure orange) you will find more badly made ones because there's just not enough of the stone to allow improvement.
Important to remember that FCD's are sold based on how they look. It's pretty hard to sell a really badly cut stone.

Many diamonds that appear orange will have fluorescence. It's truly a wildcard, in some cases helping the orange, and in other cases lessening the orange.

I agree with Kenny about a percentage of diamond sellers using deception, or promoting false ideas to make a sale- it's a shame.
Sellers who sacrifice morals to make sales reflect poorly on the entire industry.

I wish I could show you the diamond in person coz I am also confused on what's the reason why vivid orange look of this diamond is inconsistent. In some ligthing conditions it looks pale instead of vivid and orange yellow instead of yellowish orange. But even the most famous pure orange diamond on the world also looks brownish or pale in some lighting condition like the Pumpkin Diamond worn by Halle Berry...

 

[PumpkinOrange]

.

I have been thinking about the fan of straight facets at the bow-tie area of this little FDO wonder since Yoram posted it bottom-up the other day:

Bottom-up

Face-up (close-up)

Face-up (perspective)

I am not sure it is possible to have less of a bow-tie with a classical cut, but, if anyone could plow through any remnants of such pattern ...

Would this be enough (absence of bow), to you ?

No words for the colour ! (bottom-right: WWW)


[Digressing, as usual: a less classical cut sans bow - FVYO & 'Medium Yellow' fluorescence ! ... Not sure if pears can be treated this way. The specifications of this one reminded me your pear, @PumpkinOrange]

That is extremely beautiful. I hope James Allen offers discounts. Maybe 50%off

There was this GIA certified diamond cushion cut 0.35ct fancy vivid yellowish orange SI1 clarity none fluorescent diamond sold from Leibish & Co for $3,600 that was actually my first love but I couldn't afford it at that price.

 

[valeria101]

Two 'Intense' ~30 pts. are ... 50% off relative to the Vivid oval ...

I am intrigued by a minute, lighter object:

https://www.jamesallen.com/loose-di.../round-cut/0.15-carat-vs1-clarity-sku-3111694

- a kind of colour I have not yet met !

 

[kenny]

Two 'Intense' ~30 pts. are ... 50% off relative to the Vivid oval ...

I am intrigued by a minute, lighter object:

https://www.jamesallen.com/loose-di.../round-cut/0.15-carat-vs1-clarity-sku-3111694

- a kind of colour I have not yet met !

Yum!
Rare color for a diamond.
Reminds me of a peachy Padparadscha sapphire.
I just wish the color was more evenly distributed over the entire diamond.

 

[valeria101]

Yum!
Rare color for a diamond.
Reminds me of a peachy Padparadscha sapphire.
I just wish the color was more evenly distributed over the entire diamond.

No idea what could be done ...