lovelylulu
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Are EGL diamonds to be avoided
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Kaleigh
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Regular Guy
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Though I would buy one, too, I wouldn''t look for one, and do screen them out when I routinely do searches here. Though good values could be had with them, particularly since web-sites like this one don''t allow you to screen out one version of EGL (US), from another, unless other compelling reasons cause you to use them (a nearby and convenient vendor carrying them), I think the work to get the value is more than it''s worth.
Do I hide my ambivalence?
Do I hide my ambivalence?
Richard Sherwood
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I wouldn''t eliminate EGL-USA stones from the running, particularly if you''re having trouble finding what you want with GIA or AGS stones.
Just have them checked out by an appraiser (which you''re most likely going to do anyway) to verify the grading. A lot of times they''re very competitively priced even if they''re a grade off.
I''ve seen plenty of gorgeous EGL stones.
Just have them checked out by an appraiser (which you''re most likely going to do anyway) to verify the grading. A lot of times they''re very competitively priced even if they''re a grade off.
I''ve seen plenty of gorgeous EGL stones.
Kaleigh
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diamondlil
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I would definitely consider an EGL-USA stone as long as you have it independently appraised. I have an EGL-USA stone which checked out to be exactly what the report said. Did you read the PS diamond grading lab survey here? EGL stones seem to be frowned upon by many here at PS, but I don''t believe they are as *off* as people believe. I''d stick with a USA lab though.
diamondsbylauren
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Of course there''s nothing inherently wrong with any diamond simply because it has an EGL report.
The advice given here is good- but there''s another important point- that being, what kind of diamond are we talking about?
There''s nothing wrong with a competitively priced .61 J/SI1 with EGL USA report- if you''ve seen and like the diamond.
I''ve even seen large J-K stones with EGL reports which were pretty nice, and made sense from dollars and cents standpoint.
But if we''re talking about large ( 1.00 +) stone with a high color and clarity with a non-GIA report, it''s an entirely different ball of wax.
I advise particular caution when dealing with high dollar stones ( for their size) that do not have GIA reports.
The advice given here is good- but there''s another important point- that being, what kind of diamond are we talking about?
There''s nothing wrong with a competitively priced .61 J/SI1 with EGL USA report- if you''ve seen and like the diamond.
I''ve even seen large J-K stones with EGL reports which were pretty nice, and made sense from dollars and cents standpoint.
But if we''re talking about large ( 1.00 +) stone with a high color and clarity with a non-GIA report, it''s an entirely different ball of wax.
I advise particular caution when dealing with high dollar stones ( for their size) that do not have GIA reports.
strmrdr
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Regular Guy
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Knowing more about the anticipated range of error, and/or variability (frequency) of error can probably help to make the selection of EGL (non-USA) a better option, as those fishing to increase their options to select among do run up against these guys, and further, until 1/06, they provide data on crown & pavilion not available with GIA's options.
Just from reading here, I'm guessing you want to expect, in comparison to GIA, an error in generosity of 3 grades, between both color and clarity. In other words, you might anticipate a non USA EGL G VS2 to possibly be on average graded by GIA something like an I SI 1, or an H SI2. Note...though you might choose to prefer to say that each one is different, after you've seen 100 of these, regardless of the variation, there's going to be an average that you can asses from that, allowing you to judge the likelihood of any error in the characteristics of #101.
Comments on this theory are welcome, as well as:
- the predictability of error (is it sometimes right on, and if so, how often)
- (edited to add) how to factor in Radiantman's issue of pre-grading in the mix...
- other data points besides color and clarity variation that potential shoppers may want to keep an eye for, to include issues with symmetry, and other things.
- associated with the "other" category, for this reason alone, are there reasons to exclude non USA EGL options from consideration? After all, the diamond is what it is, independent of the paper.
Just from reading here, I'm guessing you want to expect, in comparison to GIA, an error in generosity of 3 grades, between both color and clarity. In other words, you might anticipate a non USA EGL G VS2 to possibly be on average graded by GIA something like an I SI 1, or an H SI2. Note...though you might choose to prefer to say that each one is different, after you've seen 100 of these, regardless of the variation, there's going to be an average that you can asses from that, allowing you to judge the likelihood of any error in the characteristics of #101.
Comments on this theory are welcome, as well as:
- the predictability of error (is it sometimes right on, and if so, how often)
- (edited to add) how to factor in Radiantman's issue of pre-grading in the mix...
- other data points besides color and clarity variation that potential shoppers may want to keep an eye for, to include issues with symmetry, and other things.
- associated with the "other" category, for this reason alone, are there reasons to exclude non USA EGL options from consideration? After all, the diamond is what it is, independent of the paper.
ame
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SparklyThing
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Regular Guy
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Saturday Night Live recently did what I thought was a pretty good spoof about the use of how language could be used in a press conference in Britain...where you couldn''t say anything straight on, but if you step off to the side, you could be alarmingly revealing, and in this way, I''m guessing some of the people most able on this board to answer questions about EGL may be the most reluctant to speak up.
Let''s just say EGL non USA was sort of like a huge Walmart, with as many as 11 entrances! You could come in the main entrance, but they typically steer you to the left or the right by as many as 5 entrances over, even though you just want to reach the dead center of the store. The good thing is that every day there are big discounts there, anticipating the customer''s expected inconvenience. I''m guessing that EGL/Walmart may use wooden horses typically to steer you 3 entrances over, but it could be 2 or 4 or 1 for that matter. Any help in figuring out the deal with saw horses, and how many you might expect to find in your detour?
Let''s just say EGL non USA was sort of like a huge Walmart, with as many as 11 entrances! You could come in the main entrance, but they typically steer you to the left or the right by as many as 5 entrances over, even though you just want to reach the dead center of the store. The good thing is that every day there are big discounts there, anticipating the customer''s expected inconvenience. I''m guessing that EGL/Walmart may use wooden horses typically to steer you 3 entrances over, but it could be 2 or 4 or 1 for that matter. Any help in figuring out the deal with saw horses, and how many you might expect to find in your detour?
Mara
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I don''t know if avoided is the right word....surely explore all options and double check an EGL just like you would any other diamond with an independent appraiser cert. If you are willing to take a chance that the grading may be a bit loose, it is a way to get a great deal on a diamond as they are usually discounted a fair amount because of the iffy reputation of the lab. But as others note, the overseas labs are a bit more iffy than EGL-USA which has a better rep.
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diamondsbylauren
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Ira- this is simply not possible to do safely.
It''s like saying "Play Russian Roulette- there''s only a 20% chance you''ll get the bullet." Works great 4 out of 5 times. What if you''re the fifth?
SO, If you assume that EGL USA was 1-3 grades off, and settled on 2 ( an average) you could really get hurt.
To the guy pusing EGL Israel- they have a much worse rep than EGL USA
cheetahman
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I'm new here and definitely not as knowledgable, but there's very little you can do to "undo" a game of the Russian Roulette. If you purchase from a reputable vendor with a return policy, it's easy to "undo". Now if you have to return 1 in 5 diamonds, but 4 of 5 times you save youself a couple of grand, why wouldn't go that route?
diamondsbylauren
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Hi Cheetah,
If we totally overlook the implications of dealers using EGL because they did not get the grade they want- or only sending less desirable stones to EGL because everyone in the know prefers GIA- If we overlook these important facts, and buy because we know we can return something- then we must consider how much that costs- and it is not inconsiderable.
Sending diamonds back and forth can easily run $40 per direction, and a lot of time and effort. You're assumning 1 out of 5 misgrades- I feel the number is greater.
So, it's not as if this "gamble's" odds are with you.
If we totally overlook the implications of dealers using EGL because they did not get the grade they want- or only sending less desirable stones to EGL because everyone in the know prefers GIA- If we overlook these important facts, and buy because we know we can return something- then we must consider how much that costs- and it is not inconsiderable.
Sending diamonds back and forth can easily run $40 per direction, and a lot of time and effort. You're assumning 1 out of 5 misgrades- I feel the number is greater.
So, it's not as if this "gamble's" odds are with you.
cheetahman
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I was trying to get people to give some estimates of the odds in a thread that I started here, because earlier today I went through with an EGL purchase. I was only using 1 in 5 because that''s the 20% you stated in the Russian Roulette scenario.
In my case, they are shipping to me for free, so it''s only $40 in one direction if I have to return. Also the one I bought (EGL) is more than $3,000 less ($9,400 vs $6,250) than a comparable local discount vendor''s (EGL-US). I got an I, SI1, at 1.63 ct. with an HCA of 0.8. I figure even if it''s off a grade of color and it''s J AND a clarity and it''s SI2, then it''s still a pretty good value at the price. It seems like GIA''s with J and SI2 are 5800-7800 here. What are the odds that I get GIA I1 or K with an EGL SI1 and I? That''s really the only scenario where I think I lose that "gamble".
It would be nice, though I''m not sure if it''s against any code, if some appraisers would roughly state the percentage of time that an EGL, EGL-US, GIA, AGS stone matches their appraisal. I''m not looking for scientific (it would be nice), but even if it was something like "20-30% EGL is about what I think and 70-80% it''s below by one grade, etc. My opinion matches the GIA certificate 55-70% of the time... blah, blah, blah". And of course I''ll be booking a trip to see Jeff Averbook in Medford, MA if it''s close.
In my case, they are shipping to me for free, so it''s only $40 in one direction if I have to return. Also the one I bought (EGL) is more than $3,000 less ($9,400 vs $6,250) than a comparable local discount vendor''s (EGL-US). I got an I, SI1, at 1.63 ct. with an HCA of 0.8. I figure even if it''s off a grade of color and it''s J AND a clarity and it''s SI2, then it''s still a pretty good value at the price. It seems like GIA''s with J and SI2 are 5800-7800 here. What are the odds that I get GIA I1 or K with an EGL SI1 and I? That''s really the only scenario where I think I lose that "gamble".
It would be nice, though I''m not sure if it''s against any code, if some appraisers would roughly state the percentage of time that an EGL, EGL-US, GIA, AGS stone matches their appraisal. I''m not looking for scientific (it would be nice), but even if it was something like "20-30% EGL is about what I think and 70-80% it''s below by one grade, etc. My opinion matches the GIA certificate 55-70% of the time... blah, blah, blah". And of course I''ll be booking a trip to see Jeff Averbook in Medford, MA if it''s close.
diamondsbylauren
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Hi Cheetah,
I took a look at the other thread and got the jist of it.
An I color from EGL might have been a J or even K from GIA- - but in these grades- EGL makes much better sense to me.
Manly because of the savings, and lower total dollares per stone. If one was looking for a 1.70 E/VS1, it''s an entirely different story.
I love I color, J color- even L-M-N colors can look awesome.
I''d make the case that folks have NO problem buying a K, L- even M- with a GIA report.
But there are cutters that prefer to submit these stones to EGL and hope for a better grade.
SO- in your case- buying an I Color VS 1.70+- with an EGL USA report, from an established vendor- you''re on very safe ground.
I took a look at the other thread and got the jist of it.
An I color from EGL might have been a J or even K from GIA- - but in these grades- EGL makes much better sense to me.
Manly because of the savings, and lower total dollares per stone. If one was looking for a 1.70 E/VS1, it''s an entirely different story.
I love I color, J color- even L-M-N colors can look awesome.
I''d make the case that folks have NO problem buying a K, L- even M- with a GIA report.
But there are cutters that prefer to submit these stones to EGL and hope for a better grade.
SO- in your case- buying an I Color VS 1.70+- with an EGL USA report, from an established vendor- you''re on very safe ground.
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It may not be safe to compare grade for grade between labs, but starting with a range of grades and the conviction that the likelyhood of a ''bargain'' is remote... why not.
Perhaps lab reports have made it easier to trust diamonds'' quality, but that can''t go all the way I would think. And assuming that any two diamonds with the same price would vitually have the same ''true grades'' definitely does not sound right either.
''To be avoided'' sounds pretty harsh. But how to make use of them? Appraisal has been mentioned as a solution. There must be others for every particular search: matching cut, size and prices and them thinking of the labs and the color & clarity grades. For better or worse, GIA''s cut grades are not yet out and EGL''s cut grades never quite took off (at least around here), otherwise this thread would never end comparing those!
How do you treat any other brands and industry standards? It can''t be all that different. Diamonds are not the only blind purchase - some are worse and allot more important (say, health).
Just IMO.
Perhaps lab reports have made it easier to trust diamonds'' quality, but that can''t go all the way I would think. And assuming that any two diamonds with the same price would vitually have the same ''true grades'' definitely does not sound right either.
''To be avoided'' sounds pretty harsh. But how to make use of them? Appraisal has been mentioned as a solution. There must be others for every particular search: matching cut, size and prices and them thinking of the labs and the color & clarity grades. For better or worse, GIA''s cut grades are not yet out and EGL''s cut grades never quite took off (at least around here), otherwise this thread would never end comparing those!
How do you treat any other brands and industry standards? It can''t be all that different. Diamonds are not the only blind purchase - some are worse and allot more important (say, health).
Just IMO.
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I would suggest to double check GIA!!! They are under suspicion for issuing "UPGRADED" certs on a few supergems!!!
As far as AGS is concerned, I would not buy a Fancy shape diamond with an AGS cert, I recently noticed they are way off on their Symmetry!!! and color!!!
As far as the rest (for example EGL), most people start off by knowing they might be a bit softer on their grades, and expect lower prices on these diamonds, but again, lets not forget, non of the Labs guarantee their grades, its an opinion ONLY!!!!
And I will remind everyone EGL means European Gemological Labratory, means EGL "USA" is not a superior labratory!!!
As far as AGS is concerned, I would not buy a Fancy shape diamond with an AGS cert, I recently noticed they are way off on their Symmetry!!! and color!!!
As far as the rest (for example EGL), most people start off by knowing they might be a bit softer on their grades, and expect lower prices on these diamonds, but again, lets not forget, non of the Labs guarantee their grades, its an opinion ONLY!!!!
And I will remind everyone EGL means European Gemological Labratory, means EGL "USA" is not a superior labratory!!!
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Here's a new page from DBL called 'How much is a GIA cert worth ?'.
Relevant LINK
and citation in case that goes away:
.............................................................................
"Is a GIA certified diamond worth more than a non certified stone?
This is a good question.
First of all GIA does not "certify" diamonds, they issue reports which identify a diamond.
SO, in essence, all the GIA report does is tell you the color, clarity and measurements of a diamond. Since a diamond's price is based on the color, clarity, and measurements ( some of which give indications on how well a diamond is cut) - the exact grade is quite important.
For example, a 2.45 carat I color VS1 Emerald Cut with a GIA report is priced at around $18K, while a similar diamond of J color- just one little shade darker, and the price drops to about $15k. Yep, 20%. Let's go the other way- let's say I could convince you this was..... oh, let's call it a G/VS1. NOW the price is about $26K.
The GIA report pins down this vital info. Say this report should disappear, and a new one, by some other lab, pops up. That might be a very good thing- IF- that new lab agreed that your diamond was a G color.
Then, you could either:
a) try to sell it for more
b) offer a diamond for $18k that others, ostensibly, are asking 26K for.
.............................................................................
The smileys in text are my own - just could not help it!
On the original page this also comes to a conclusion like this: "The point of this whole rant is this- If you want an accurate grade, MAKE SURE YOU GET A GIA REPORT."
To each his own, really. If you don't want to learn how to grade diamond color or haggle over grades, it makes some sense to get the most expensive and popular 'paper'. For me, the issue of which is better and what are these good for or worth is still open. But I also know I can tell the grades for myself, and do not necessarily simpathise with GIA and both these make my opinion pretty outlandish. Don't listen to me!
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