Bex's "I'm still a newbie" questions...

[Bex]

I have a slew of questions, ranging from mildly embarrassing/probably common sense to a little more thorny. I figured it might be easier to dump them all here, instead of starting a separate thread for each. So without further ado:

1. Will a 9.8x7.4mm stone fit in a 10x8 setting? (I'm assuming yes? Is this a dumb question?)

2. Why don't more custom jewelers work with silver? Are there physical advantages with gold, or is it more a margin or profit or prestige thing?

3. Are there any industry guides for pricing colored stones? Or do most cutters charge what they think is fair and their customers are willing to pay? From what I've seen, prices are pretty all over the place. Which makes it tricky when my husband asks how much my theoretical ring would cost, and I have to tell him "More than a little, less than a terrifying amount?"

4. If a stone is a little dark, but with beautiful bright flashes, can it be lightened with a precision recut? Or will a dark stone always be dark?

5. What happens is you commission a custom cut stone and when it's done, you just don't like it, or it wasn't what you wanted? Are you stuck with it?

6. Is this a bow tie? I've figured out windows and have gotten MUCH better at spotting them, but still not sure how to suss out a bow tie extinction that's problematic, vs one that's really just a bad picture.



THANKS!!!

 

[pregcurious]

At the risk of being completely wrong...

1. Will a 9.8x7.4mm stone fit in a 10x8 setting? (I'm assuming yes? Is this a dumb question?)
If you're talking prongs, probably. If you mean a prong setting with a custom halo that has the tightness of almost a bezel, it may look a little off, or not fit as ovals are shaped differently. Your jeweler has final say. For colored stones, you should also look at depth and bulge as there is no standard depth and some gems have a belly.

2. Why don't more custom jewelers work with silver? Are there physical advantages with gold, or is it more a margin or profit or prestige thing?
Silver is generally inexpensive. If you are highly skilled, you will make more money with gold. For example, people complain that Julia Kay Taylor's silver pieces are overpriced, but I disagree. You paying for her design, skill, and time, not for the value of the silver. (I am biased as I commissioned a silver piece from her.)

3. Are there any industry guides for pricing colored stones? Or do most cutters charge what they think is fair and their customers are willing to pay? From what I've seen, prices are pretty all over the place. Which makes it tricky when my husband asks how much my theoretical ring would cost, and I have to tell him "More than a little, less than a terrifying amount?"
Yes, there is a guide. I have seen being referred to here, but I can't find it now. For actual prices, strategies vary. Unlike diamonds that are like a commodity, the prices of colored stones vary widely. If you want estimates for something like a sapphire, you can go to a vendor like GemFix that has a decent variety and selection. For the price of settings, you can do research on PS. WhiteFlash has prices for stock settings, Brian Gavin custom makes every single setting on demand and they have prices published, and places like ERD, Victor Canera/Steven Kirsch/Leon Mege have prices that have been published on PS by buyers. You can also get a quote, but I usually wait until I have a good idea of the project.

4. If a stone is a little dark, but with beautiful bright flashes, can it be lightened with a precision recut? Or will a dark stone always be dark?
It depends on why it is dark. If the material itself is dark in tone, then there is a limit to how much cut can help. You should assess the cut of your stone. For the stone you are describing, it sounds like the material is an issue as a stone with dark tone can have flashes of nice color when it reflects back light. (For the definition of tone, see LDs stickied thread about buying Colored Stones.)

Recuts are usually done to address specific cut issues like windows, bow ties, lack of symmetry, or to brighten when there is a poor cut. Recuts can change the color. (With colored diamonds, recuts may be done to improve the color of the stone to improve the grading, but this a different discussion.)

5. What happens is you commission a custom cut stone and when it's done, you just don't like it, or it wasn't what you wanted? Are you stuck with it?
I have no experience in this. To this point I've always looked for stones that I did not feel needed a precision cut because I am happy with a good nonprecision cut. That said, I have precision stones, but there were not commissioned.

6. Is this a bow tie? I've figured out windows and have gotten MUCH better at spotting them, but still not sure how to suss out a bow tie extinction that's problematic, vs one that's really just a bad picture.
It looks like a bow tie to me. If it is a bad picture, I don't think it would "make" that bow tie design.


THANKS!!![/quote]

 

[LoversKites]

Hi! I cant answer all your q's but Ill answer what I think I can.

4) It really is a case by case thing. Ive seen some dark garnet that shows off lovely scintillation when precision cut.

5) Depends on the seller. I once commissioned a custom stone which was cut in a slightly different cut from what I asked and the seller didn't push me to buy it.

6) I'm pretty sure that's a bowtie. It would have to be a face up pic to see how bad it is.

Good luck.

 

[FrekeChild]

I'm underlined!

At the risk of being completely wrong...I added to what Preg said.

1. Will a 9.8x7.4mm stone fit in a 10x8 setting? (I'm assuming yes? Is this a dumb question?)
If you're talking prongs, probably. If you mean a prong setting with a custom halo that has the tightness of almost a bezel, it may look a little off, or not fit as ovals are shaped differently. Your jeweler has final say. For colored stones, you should also look at depth and bulge as there is no standard depth and some gems have a belly.
Odds are probably in your favor.

2. Why don't more custom jewelers work with silver? Are there physical advantages with gold, or is it more a margin or profit or prestige thing?
Silver is generally inexpensive. If you are highly skilled, you will make more money with gold. For example, people complain that Julia Kay Taylor's silver pieces are overpriced, but I disagree. You paying for her design, skill, and time, not for the value of the silver. (I am biased as I commissioned a silver piece from her.)
Hah at JKT and the word "skill" together in a sentence. Sorry Preg, but IMHO and in my experience, JKT is not and never will be worth her prices.
Silver is ridiculously low priced. It's also very soft. Most jewelers won't prong set with silver because if it catches on things, the prong will probably bend back. It wears away faster than a lot of metals. It does not have the same prestige of gold or platinum. It also tarnishes. But, it's cheap.

3. Are there any industry guides for pricing colored stones? Or do most cutters charge what they think is fair and their customers are willing to pay? From what I've seen, prices are pretty all over the place. Which makes it tricky when my husband asks how much my theoretical ring would cost, and I have to tell him "More than a little, less than a terrifying amount?"
Yes, there is a guide. I have seen being referred to here, but I can't find it now. For actual prices, strategies vary. Unlike diamonds that are like a commodity, the prices of colored stones vary widely. If you want estimates for something like a sapphire, you can go to a vendor like GemFix that has a decent variety and selection. For the price of settings, you can do research on PS. WhiteFlash has prices for stock settings, Brian Gavin custom makes every single setting on demand and they have prices published, and places like ERD, Victor Canera/Steven Kirsch/Leon Mege have prices that have been published on PS by buyers. You can also get a quote, but I usually wait until I have a good idea of the project.
It depends on the cutter for some stones. I've seen insanely stupid pricing on cheaper stones (I'm looking at YOU Lloyd Forrester of Clear Cut Gems) such as $900 for a dark purple spinel or $3,000+/- for a peachy brown zircon, and I've seen really cheap pricing. Sometimes I think they calculate it based on the price of the rough and the time spent cutting it, sometimes it's the maximum they think they can get. Some cutters are worth paying more for. If you wanted to post here, we can certainly help give you guidelines, ex: 2ct apple green peridot, precision cut, diamond halo, platinum, high end custom, handmade and we'd ask you questions and find options, and point you in the direction of who might make that and how much they charge. We've all been there and collectively done a lot, so feel free to utilize us and our knowledge.

4. If a stone is a little dark, but with beautiful bright flashes, can it be lightened with a precision recut? Or will a dark stone always be dark?
It depends on why it is dark. If the material itself is dark in tone, then there is a limit to how much cut can help. You should assess the cut of your stone. For the stone you are describing, it sounds like the material is an issue as a stone with dark tone can have flashes of nice color when it reflects back light. (For the definition of tone, see LDs stickied thread about buying Colored Stones.)

Recuts are usually done to address specific cut issues like windows, bow ties, lack of symmetry, or to brighten when there is a poor cut. Recuts can change the color. (With colored diamonds, recuts may be done to improve the color of the stone to improve the grading, but this a different discussion.)
As Preg said, it depends. If the stone is deeeeeeep and has a fat belly, odds are pretty good that a precision recut will help lighten the stone's tone. A recutter can tell you more, both from pictures and from assessing the stone in hand, if necessary. It's incredibly difficult to assess a stone for recuts, so I do not recommend buying a stone just to recut it! Unless it's cheap and you wouldn't mind if it cracked in half and was destroyed in the process of the recut.

5. What happens is you commission a custom cut stone and when it's done, you just don't like it, or it wasn't what you wanted? Are you stuck with it?
I have no experience in this. To this point I've always looked for stones that I did not feel needed a precision cut because I am happy with a good nonprecision cut. That said, I have precision stones, but there were not commissioned.
Depends on the policy of the cutter. Jeff White charges a non-refundable cutting fee. Others do it based on what you're asking for. If you want a funky brown-yellow sapphire cut in a shape of a horsehead, you're probably stuck with it, unless the seller thinks they can sell it to someone else. If you're wanting a blue sapphire cut as a round, they can sell that no problem. Standard shapes are usually easy sells. Highly sought after colors are usually easy sells. It's when you get weird that policies get iffy.

6. Is this a bow tie? I've figured out windows and have gotten MUCH better at spotting them, but still not sure how to suss out a bow tie extinction that's problematic, vs one that's really just a bad picture.
It looks like a bow tie to me. If it is a bad picture, I don't think it would "make" that bow tie design.
Yes. It's a bowtie.

 

[mochiko42]

I'm underlined!

6. Is this a bow tie? I've figured out windows and have gotten MUCH better at spotting them, but still not sure how to suss out a bow tie extinction that's problematic, vs one that's really just a bad picture.
It looks like a bow tie to me. If it is a bad picture, I don't think it would "make" that bow tie design.
Yes. It's a bowtie.

I'm terrible at spotting bow ties.. windows I'm getting better at spotting, but extinction vs bad photos / reflections remain troublesome for me, somehow I haven't yet acquired the knack for spotting them in photos yet. Could I ask how can you tell from a photo if it's a bow tie vs a shadow/reflection/bad photo?

 

[FrekeChild]

I'm underlined!

6. Is this a bow tie? I've figured out windows and have gotten MUCH better at spotting them, but still not sure how to suss out a bow tie extinction that's problematic, vs one that's really just a bad picture.
It looks like a bow tie to me. If it is a bad picture, I don't think it would "make" that bow tie design.
Yes. It's a bowtie.

I'm terrible at spotting bow ties.. windows I'm getting better at spotting, but extinction vs bad photos / reflections remain troublesome for me, somehow I haven't yet acquired the knack for spotting them in photos yet. Could I ask how can you tell from a photo if it's a bow tie vs a shadow/reflection/bad photo?

Experience. And taking a lot of my own photos of gemstones I've gotten the pleasure of playing with in person.

 

[innerkitten]

I have a slew of questions, ranging from mildly embarrassing/probably common sense to a little more thorny. I figured it might be easier to dump them all here, instead of starting a separate thread for each. So without further ado:

1. Will a 9.8x7.4mm stone fit in a 10x8 setting? (I'm assuming yes? Is this a dumb question?)

2. Why don't more custom jewelers work with silver? Are there physical advantages with gold, or is it more a margin or profit or prestige thing?

3. Are there any industry guides for pricing colored stones? Or do most cutters charge what they think is fair and their customers are willing to pay? From what I've seen, prices are pretty all over the place. Which makes it tricky when my husband asks how much my theoretical ring would cost, and I have to tell him "More than a little, less than a terrifying amount?"

4. If a stone is a little dark, but with beautiful bright flashes, can it be lightened with a precision recut? Or will a dark stone always be dark?

5. What happens is you commission a custom cut stone and when it's done, you just don't like it, or it wasn't what you wanted? Are you stuck with it?

6. Is this a bow tie? I've figured out windows and have gotten MUCH better at spotting them, but still not sure how to suss out a bow tie extinction that's problematic, vs one that's really just a bad picture.





THANKS!!!

Why do I always double post.
Sorry.

 

[innerkitten]

I have a slew of questions, ranging from mildly embarrassing/probably common sense to a little more thorny. I figured it might be easier to dump them all here, instead of starting a separate thread for each. So without further ado:

1. Will a 9.8x7.4mm stone fit in a 10x8 setting? (I'm assuming yes? Is this a dumb question?)

2. Why don't more custom jewelers work with silver? Are there physical advantages with gold, or is it more a margin or profit or prestige thing?

3. Are there any industry guides for pricing colored stones? Or do most cutters charge what they think is fair and their customers are willing to pay? From what I've seen, prices are pretty all over the place. Which makes it tricky when my husband asks how much my theoretical ring would cost, and I have to tell him "More than a little, less than a terrifying amount?"

4. If a stone is a little dark, but with beautiful bright flashes, can it be lightened with a precision recut? Or will a dark stone always be dark?

5. What happens is you commission a custom cut stone and when it's done, you just don't like it, or it wasn't what you wanted? Are you stuck with it?

6. Is this a bow tie? I've figured out windows and have gotten MUCH better at spotting them, but still not sure how to suss out a bow tie extinction that's problematic, vs one that's really just a bad picture.



THANKS!!!

I only have a few answers.

1. My jeweler say's it's best to size down with a setting so maybe 7x9. But it might depend on the person setting it.

2. Some do work in silver.

4. Not always it depends on the material. But it can help.

5. Pretty much. But you might be able to make some changes.

6. Yeah thats a bow tie.

 

[T L]

3. Are there any industry guides for pricing colored stones? Or do most cutters charge what they think is fair and their customers are willing to pay? From what I've seen, prices are pretty all over the place. Which makes it tricky when my husband asks how much my theoretical ring would cost, and I have to tell him "More than a little, less than a terrifying amount?"
[/img]

THANKS!!!

I'll just stick to question #3. There is a guide to pricing that is sold to the trade (I forget the book's name at the moment), but unfortunately, for colored stones, the prices are all over the place and not as static as diamond pricing. I'm not even sure if that guide is fair in its pricing.

It depends on who cut it, treatments, carat weight, overhead, market names and hype, clarity, color, middlemen between the vendor and the source, designer factor (is it from Tiffany & Co for example), what they want to charge, and a vendor can charge anything they want on a colored gem, even if its synthetic. There are no laws demanding that a gem have a maximum ceiling price. That's why education is very important, so you can ascertain what is a fair price based on the variables of color, cut, clarity, treatment level, shape, size and gem species.

For example, if that stone in the pic is a spinel, and lets say it's around 2 carats, native cut and assuming no treatment, I've seen stones like that go from anywhere from $30 to over $1K. It's crazy.

 

[minousbijoux]

Bex: first of all, never be afraid to ask your questions - they are all really good! I wish I had had the courage to ask them when I first started. Secondly, you have received great responses from everyone, most notably Preg and Freke. Good work!

 

[Bex]

Thank you all SO MUCH for the replies! I'm constantly impressed with the depth and breadth of knowledge on display here, and I'm so appreciative of everyone's willingness to help out.

 

[pregcurious]

I'm terrible at spotting bow ties.. windows I'm getting better at spotting, but extinction vs bad photos / reflections remain troublesome for me, somehow I haven't yet acquired the knack for spotting them in photos yet. Could I ask how can you tell from a photo if it's a bow tie vs a shadow/reflection/bad photo?

I agree with Freke's response, Also, these other things (bad photos, reflections), should not make a bow-tied shape pattern. (At least not that I know of, unless the camera is bow-tied shaped )

 

[mochiko42]

I'm terrible at spotting bow ties.. windows I'm getting better at spotting, but extinction vs bad photos / reflections remain troublesome for me, somehow I haven't yet acquired the knack for spotting them in photos yet. Could I ask how can you tell from a photo if it's a bow tie vs a shadow/reflection/bad photo?

I agree with Freke's response, Also, these other things (bad photos, reflections), should not make a bow-tied shape pattern. (At least not that I know of, unless the camera is bow-tied shaped )

Thanks so much for sharing your experience. And your comment about the bow tie camera made me think of Simon & Garfunkel's song with the lyric "his bow tie is really a camera" .. LOL..

Apart from bow ties, I do have a stupid question about other extinction and zoning (hope Bex doesn't mind my threadjacking since it's on a related topic) -- how can you tell from a photo if the area of extinction or color zoning is just due to the camera position / shadow / angle of photo, or a true extinction / zoning issue? Would you need to see a video or additional photos of the same stone from different angles & in different lighting to be sure? Are there tell-tale things that you look out for in photos, or does it solely come from experience of observing stones IRL and then comparing it to photos you take? (I'm just curious and as I'm just starting my collection, I've been finding that the stones I have in real life look totally different than from vendor photos, usually much better IRL than on the computer screen...)


Anyway just some newbie frustration!

 

[T L]

I'm terrible at spotting bow ties.. windows I'm getting better at spotting, but extinction vs bad photos / reflections remain troublesome for me, somehow I haven't yet acquired the knack for spotting them in photos yet. Could I ask how can you tell from a photo if it's a bow tie vs a shadow/reflection/bad photo?

I agree with Freke's response, Also, these other things (bad photos, reflections), should not make a bow-tied shape pattern. (At least not that I know of, unless the camera is bow-tied shaped )

Thanks so much for sharing your experience. And your comment about the bow tie camera made me think of Simon & Garfunkel's song with the lyric "his bow tie is really a camera" .. LOL..

Apart from bow ties, I do have a stupid question about other extinction and zoning (hope Bex doesn't mind my threadjacking since it's on a related topic) -- how can you tell from a photo if the area of extinction or color zoning is just due to the camera position / shadow / angle of photo, or a true extinction / zoning issue? Would you need to see a video or additional photos of the same stone from different angles & in different lighting to be sure? Are there tell-tale things that you look out for in photos, or does it solely come from experience of observing stones IRL and then comparing it to photos you take? (I'm just curious and as I'm just starting my collection, I've been finding that the stones I have in real life look totally different than from vendor photos, usually much better IRL than on the computer screen...)


Anyway just some newbie frustration!

If it's camera shadow, then there just wouldn't be a bow tie, but the whole stone, or at the very least, the table, would be darker.

In any case, ovals are infamous for bow ties. It bothers some people and others don't really notice it that much. There is a type of cut called a "supernova oval" that eliminates the bow tie issue in ovals.

 

[FrekeChild]

Thanks so much for sharing your experience. And your comment about the bow tie camera made me think of Simon & Garfunkel's song with the lyric "his bow tie is really a camera" .. LOL..

Apart from bow ties, I do have a stupid question about other extinction and zoning (hope Bex doesn't mind my threadjacking since it's on a related topic) -- how can you tell from a photo if the area of extinction or color zoning is just due to the camera position / shadow / angle of photo, or a true extinction / zoning issue? Would you need to see a video or additional photos of the same stone from different angles & in different lighting to be sure? Are there tell-tale things that you look out for in photos, or does it solely come from experience of observing stones IRL and then comparing it to photos you take? (I'm just curious and as I'm just starting my collection, I've been finding that the stones I have in real life look totally different than from vendor photos, usually much better IRL than on the computer screen...)

Anyway just some newbie frustration!

If you have a question, ask! Remember, there are no stupid questions.

It's easier if you're familiar with the photographer and the cutter, and if you're familiar with operating the camera for gem photography yourself. For instance, Barry cuts a lot of those amazing supernovas. I'll post the photo of it that Barbara Smigel posted to ACS. My very first stone was a Barry supernova, so I had an idea of what to expect.

Second picture is one I took with a macro lens that is black, and very close to the stone.

Third picture is one I took with the camera not blocking any light.

Fourth is it set. This is angled so that the camera is not blocking any light.

You have to keep in mind that there are a few things at work when you are taking a picture of a gem - the angle of the table of the gem, the angles of the light and the angle of the camera/you.

 

[yssie]

Garry explained bowties in diamonds - which are unattractive reflections of whatever object is obstructing the light source thanks to facet orientation, I assume the CS definition is pretty much the same! - and how different faceting patterns can be used to avoid it, thought it might be interesting

I asked, Mark insist that "there is nothing in the market that is better than this, the bow tie is between 2:30
to 3:30", i have no idea what 2:30 to 3:30 means, anyone can help me by giving
me some ideas about how bad the bow tie is!

There are different facet patterns that reduce bow ties.
It should not be that hard to swap the stone over.
The fact that you asked about it - I am sure Mark will help you out.

Refer Mark to this image. He can ask me for help if he wishes as I know a company that makes them.


Comment on attachment: The one on the left has a bow tie, the one on the right is what you want

 

[chrono]

Yssie,
Thanks for adding Garry's explanation; it holds true as well for coloured stones.

 

[FrekeChild]

Supernova oval cut diagram.

 

[Bex]

The detailed bow tie information is really helpful! It also explains why some cutters photos seem prone to them, if they are using the same cut then it'll often have a bow tie on lighter stones, right?

 

[FrekeChild]

The detailed bow tie information is really helpful! It also explains why some cutters photos seem prone to them, if they are using the same cut then it'll often have a bow tie on lighter stones, right?

Yes, but you have to remember that many cutters do not use diagrams at all - most of the world's gemstones are cut by non-precision cutters and they don't use diagrams or anything, just the stone, their eyes and the wheel.

And bowties can be seen on any stone, no matter what color. It's a cut problem. It's usually just more obvious on stones that have a light body color with a funky dark blotch stretching across the middle.

 

[pregcurious]

Freke, your gem looks much better in your pics than in the ACS pic!

 

[minousbijoux]

Freke, your gem looks much better in your pics than in the ACS pic!

I don't think it would be a stretch to say that Freke's photos are professional level. I have been saying for a long time that she should work with vendors to redo their displays, websites and above all, their photos.