Cake Ethics 101

[Independent Gal]

What do you ladies think of this, morally speaking?

The party that FI's boss is throwing for us for our local friends is next Friday. It's a cake and champagne party, and I offered to help out in any way I could. I suggested that, perhaps, we could take care of the cake. At first I thought I would bake one. But pretty cakes are the thing FI has got most excited about, wedding-wise, and we're not having a wedding cake at WP2, and the cake at WP1 will taste good, but is likely to look crumby (haha!) if the chef's other cake is anything to go by. So I called the baker of a cake he had seen in a magazine that he particularly liked and got a quote. It will be about $160 for the number of guests there. And FI was all "Let's do it!"

Now, here's the catch. The host clarified that while it would be helpful for us to BRING the cake, he insisted that it was an engagement present and that therefore they would like to pay for it.

There is no way we are sticking him with a bill for $160 for cake, just because FI and I wanted a fancy one.

So,

1) We thought we would fib a little and say it had cost $60, then pay for the rest ourselves. He has college age kids, so probably has no idea how much these things cost. Is this OK to do? Fibbing is not a comfy thing for either of us. But what do you think?
2)Alternatively, we could just insist that we want to pay for it. But is it rude to refuse his "gift" like that? Know what I mean?
3) Third option, we could cancel the order and choose a less pricey way to sugar the guests up.

 

[JulieN]

#1 is a common tactic in my family. But I think 80 or 100 is more believable? I don't see how a $160 cake can look like a $60 cake.

 

[Sabine]

I would go with #1.

 

[Haven]

I would fib about the cost, or tell him that someone else insisted on purchasing the cake for you. In fact, that second bit wouldn''t even be a lie, he doesn''t have to know that you and FI are the "someone else".

 

[Independent Gal]

Great idea, Haven! I''ll run that by FI.

 

[zoebartlett]

My first choice is #2 because you don''t have to fib and you still get the cake the two of you want. It wil be YOUR party, after all. Your FI''s boss is throwing the party so THAT is his gift to you and your FI (and I''m assuming he''s paying for the champagne).

Just throwing this out there, but would you think about getting a less expensive cake for the party AND a smaller version of the cake you want and have that at home, for just the two of you?

 

[Independent Gal]

Here's the 'inspiration cake'. Ours won't be anywhere near so big. Chocolate, with chocolate-orange cream. mmmm. I only wish FI had got his act together early enough for us to go for a tasting. I hope it's not tooooo sweet!

 

[zoebartlett]

It''s beautiful and it sounds delish.

 

[partyjewels]

Date: 2/1/2008 2:39:46 PM
Author: Haven
I would fib about the cost, or tell him that someone else insisted on purchasing the cake for you. In fact, that second bit wouldn't even be a lie, he doesn't have to know that you and FI are the 'someone else'.

I think this is a good idea but what if he asks who it is? If you say it's a family friend or something and it's someone who isn't going to be at the party, he might wonder why they bought you a cake, you know? I think #2 is a good option, that way you don't have to feel like you fibbed or anything. In any case it's a gorgeous cake and sounds scrumptious!!

 

[Haven]

Date: 2/1/2008 2:52:43 PM
Author: partyjewels

Date: 2/1/2008 2:39:46 PM

Author: Haven

I would fib about the cost, or tell him that someone else insisted on purchasing the cake for you. In fact, that second bit wouldn''t even be a lie, he doesn''t have to know that you and FI are the ''someone else''.

I think this is a good idea but what if he asks who it is? If you say it''s a family friend or something and it''s someone who isn''t going to be at the party, he might wonder why they bought you a cake, you know? I think #2 is a good option, that way you don''t have to feel like you fibbed or anything. In any case it''s a gorgeous cake and sounds scrumptious!!

I hear you, PJ, but I have to say that while I don''t think it is the height of rudeness to refuse a gift (in this case, the cake) it isn''t the most gracious thing to do. If Indy said that her mum (for example) absolutely insisted on buying the cake for them, I think the conversation could end there and he wouldn''t feel as if they were insisting his gift.

 

[fleur-de-lis]

Independent Gal, I don''t have any input on the issue at hand, but I wanted to tell you that I absolutely *adore* the titles you choose for your posts. You always make me laugh!

f-d-l

 

[Italiahaircolor]

This is a sticky situation...but, easy enough to resolve...

1. I am totally, 110% against lying. Even a little fib can come back and bite you later on...what if he requests a reciept??? Being that the host is your FI boss I think you''d best steer clear of anything involving deception...even a wee lil'' white lie.

2. I think that this is your best route. I would thank him sincerely for the offer and the kindness he has shown both you and your future husband, but share with him your affection for lush cakes...even make fun of it if you must, say something along the lines "we are such sugar addicts, I mean seriously!" go on to point out how excited your fiance gets over cakes, explaining the situation will ease any tension. Honesty is your best, best, best policy--so, let it slip that the cake was more than you would expect him or anyone else spend, but that you were happy to pay for it...and are just so appreciative that he is hosting this party, period. And then let the topic drop!

3. It''s your party and you should have your cake and eat too (sorry for the cliche!) A wedding is the one and only time in your life that it''s really okay and understandable to go "balls to wall" for the things we''d never think twice about (like a cake!). I firmly believe a wedding isn''t simply a day, but a year...and this too is a party inside of a party...pay for the cake you''ll enjoy, and enjoy it!

 

[pjean]

I am totally in agreement with Italiahaircolor. Especially about the possible consequences of fibbing to your boss. You know these things always get found out some how.

 

[Independent Gal]

FI and I talked it over on our way home from date night, and he seems convinced that option 1 is the best way to go. It''s his boss and he knows him best. He seems to think it would be a real insult to insist on paying for the cake ourselves.

And I can guarantee you that that there would be no consequences if FI''s boss found out we''d claimed the cake cost way less than it did. If anything, he''d be touched. It''s not like we''re stealing from him. Quite the opposite. And I would bet my life that he would never dream of asking for a receipt.

FI seems unconcerned and confident it''s the best way to go. I will let him handle it and trust his judgment.

 

[door knob solitaire]

Indy you know whats best in your situation. Sounds like you have it figured out and its going to taste great!

I just wanted HairColor chick to know we must be using the same process on our heads

...as she wrote just what I was thinking. Not sure if you care to know you are lumped in with me...but we are thought twinkies on this one!

Indy is like Teflon...nothing sticks to her. Enjoy the orange cream chocolate cake! Yum!! Report back how much you eat!

 

[Italiahaircolor]

I would trust your fiance''s judgment since he does know his boss...but, people can surprise you too!

 

[Independent Gal]

DKS, I'm really still a little unsure what's best. But FI seems to think he knows. So I'm just going to trust him on this one.

We are going to say "It ended up at about $60". Ended up, after the bunch that we paid. So that's not strictly a lie.

My concern with fibbing is not getting caught. I really don't see that that would be an issue. Just that it's not a good or comfortable thing to do in itself. But I disagree that it's never justified, even if it's never 'right'.

And teflon or not, I do listen to you ladies, you know, even when I don't follow your advice.

Even if you end up back at square one, hearing a variety of perspectives helps you notice things you never thought of - and so sometimes change your mind - or else it forces you to articulate why you were at square one to begin with - and so feel more secure in your decision.

That's why PS is so helpful.

 

[door knob solitaire]

I agree...but you are still Teflon! (your grace shields you from everything!)

 

[Italiahaircolor]

DKS: I am honored to be lumped with you...you have a very wise mind...and being twinkies is my pleasure!

Indy: Well, since you''ve admitted you''re still undecided or uncomfortable...I''m going to reason with you a bit more.

You asked people for their moral thoughts/opinions on your issue...and morally, I am against lying. I really think that there are other ways around sticky situations that avoid dishonesty. And, lets be honest, your plan is just a lie by omission.

I think I am just endlessly stuck on that fact that this man is doing something very nice for you, and instead of leveling with him about the price and why you feel responsible for paying for it, you''re plotting ways to decieve him in an attempt to shield him. And who knows, maybe he would be touched by your gesture...but on the flip side, he could also feel insulted because he may feel that you thought he couldn''t afford the cake, and I imagine that would be equally as hurtful to him too.

I know that those are absolutely not your intentions, and I am not attempting to state that those are your intentions in any way shape or form...but, it''s all about preception with these type of things and I am trying to put myself in your FI''s bosses position. With that said, this is your FI''s boss, and ultimately his call because it''s his relationship with his boss.

I too hope you enjoy your orange cake and your engagement/wedding celebration!

 

[Gwyn]

What about #1 but say a friend of yours made it or something like that. thay way you dont have to lie about the cost. if you tell him this 160 cake was only 60 and they all liked it then what if they want to know where it came from. or they looked at the box it came in and called them up because they wanted a cake. What if, when this guys children graduate from college and he throws them a party he remembers the awesome low prices cake? then he calls and finds out you lied.

If you tell them it is a friend who just does this in his/her spare time then you wont need to give any referals. I dont know. just a thought if you want to go #1 route.

I completely see where you are coming from. whenver other people are buying dinner or anything I usually go with the cheaper items on the menu not what i actually want for the exact same reason

 

[monarch64]

Date: 2/1/2008 2:18:34 PM
Author:Independent Gal
What do you ladies think of this, morally speaking?

The party that FI''s boss is throwing for us for our local friends is next Friday. It''s a cake and champagne party, and I offered to help out in any way I could. I suggested that, perhaps, we could take care of the cake. At first I thought I would bake one. But pretty cakes are the thing FI has got most excited about, wedding-wise, and we''re not having a wedding cake at WP2, and the cake at WP1 will taste good, but is likely to look crumby (haha!) if the chef''s other cake is anything to go by. So I called the baker of a cake he had seen in a magazine that he particularly liked and got a quote. It will be about $160 for the number of guests there. And FI was all ''Let''s do it!''

Now, here''s the catch. The host clarified that while it would be helpful for us to BRING the cake, he insisted that it was an engagement present and that therefore they would like to pay for it.

There is no way we are sticking him with a bill for $160 for cake, just because FI and I wanted a fancy one.

So,

1) We thought we would fib a little and say it had cost $60, then pay for the rest ourselves. He has college age kids, so probably has no idea how much these things cost. Is this OK to do? Fibbing is not a comfy thing for either of us. But what do you think?
2)Alternatively, we could just insist that we want to pay for it. But is it rude to refuse his ''gift'' like that? Know what I mean?
3) Third option, we could cancel the order and choose a less pricey way to sugar the guests up.

Er, I might be missing something here, but why is there confusion over the $ amount for the cake? Couldn''t you just get a ballpark figure from the host and go from there???? I know it''s after the fact now, but it seems like life would be easier for you if you just found out from FI''s boss what amount he was comfortable shelling out for said cake. I know, I know...now we''re getting into uncomfortable, tacky territory.

Without being judgmental or ridiculously over-opinionated, I would like to say that I think honesty is the best policy in order to avoid future awkwardness, and I am against the option of fibbing about any of this... Don''t hold it against me, IG, I''m on your side I swear. that said...I feel like you kind of screwed up by telling the host of your party that you would offer to pay for your own cake. I don''t really understand why you did that just by reading your post but you did and now it''s a done deal. So....I really feel like splitting the bill with the host at this point is not the right thing for you to do. And since you''re not doing a cake at WP2, maybe you''ll have to eat the cost you figured on subtracting from that occasion and adding it on to this one, which should''ve been cost free, right?

I don''t mean to be hard on you at all, I really respect you and you''re one of my favorite PSr''s. I just fail to see how your option 2 could possibly work out, not to mention that the other two kinda suck and probably won''t make you happy anyway.

Sorry if this post comes across as non-friendly, I really do not mean it that way.

 

[fisherofmengirly]

Indy,

We had something like this happen at my work for our shower. I was asked what we'd like in the way of cake and I didn't have any idea, so someone suggested those little tiny cakes, for lack of knowing how to spell it, I'll sound it out: petafours. I have had them a couple times, and I just remembered them being good, and cute, and the hard icing on them is wonderful. Anyway, when they asked my preference, I said that those would be fine; I had no idea that they were thinking sheet cake (which is also fine), so I ended up kind of feeling like I was asking for more than they were counting on.

It was an ackward situation, as I could see by reactions when I mentioned agreeing with the petafours, so I said that I didn't really know what petafours were, and whatever would be fine. That in itself was a lie, and they knew it. It really hurt one of my really good work friend's heart, because I'm not the lying type, and she thought I was "blowing off the party." I just didn't want to over extend the budget.

It's always an ackward situation when what you're thinking and what a host is thinking are different ideas; in my case, a smaller sheet cake was ordered and some petafours, as well. I still would have been completely happy with the original cake idea they had, but it was sweet to know they took my preferences into consideration and worked around them.

SO many things can get complicated, and all I can say is to try your best not to let them be. I learned that instead of just blurting out my preference (when something nice was being done for me), to ask what the host(or hosts) were thinking, and mostly from there, to show appreciation and offer small suggestions (flavor, etc.). It worked well when I used it for every shower there after.

I tend to talk way too much to keep even a fib from coming to light at some point, so I opt to not go that route (as often as possible)!

By the way, the colors of that cake are amazing! I'm assuming those are your colors? BEAUTIFUL!!

 

[Independent Gal]

Valid points ladies! Though again, the problem is not "what if he finds out!?" First of all, I don't think one should ever make a moral decision on the basis of the likelihood of getting caught. And second of all, knowing him and the norms of interaction in this cultural milieu, I'm 95% sure that it would be a non-issue.

The problem is, as the philosophers say, deontological not consequentialist. Even if it's a small and well-intentioned fib, it is a fib in the interests of A PRETTY CAKE. Could anything be more shallow than a pretty cake? It's not like a fib for a serious and good cause.

So, what about this brilliant solution (if I do say so myself). I assume FI will be down with it too. Having now looked around, we know that $60 is the cost of good cake for 25 people, around here (which is how we settled on that number). So, we will tell him the truth: "Thank you so much for the cake! The cake part was $60. We frivolously hired someone to decorate it, and that we absolutely insist on paying for ourselves." That is completely honest, but doesn't insult him by refusing his gift. After all, he wanted to buy us a cake, not hire a fancy cake decorator for us.

What do you think?


Monarch What happened was, he offered to throw a big party for us for our local friends. We, partly on the basis of advice on here, said "How can we help? What can we do? Can we bring the booze? Can we help with the cake? " He is going so over and beyond in throwing us this party, that we thought it would be kind to offer to help. And he said "If you took care of the cake that would be great!" We assumed this meant that we would purchase and bring the cake. A reasonable assumption I think. So, we ordered the cake we wanted and were willing to pay for. He later clarified - AFTER the cake had been ordered - that he appreciated the help in us BRINGING the cake (he and his wife both work long hours), but that he would reimburse us for the cost.

There's no question he could afford the $160. We can easily afford the $160 too. It's not about the money and we had assumed we were paying for the whole thing. We are not trying to get money out of him, but, on the contrary, trying to protect him from our inadvertant greediness. But there's also no question that perfectly good cake for 25 people - minus the fancy decorations - can be had for $60. IF we had known he'd insist on paying, we would NEVER have gone wtih the frivolous more expensive option, which is a greedy thing to do.

But what do you think of my solution? Can anyone see a problem with it I may not have thought of? I'm going to run it by FI when he wakes up.

 

[Independent Gal]

FI is up, and loves the idea. We''ll ham it up a little too. Say something like "The cake itself cost $60, and then we had a fit of wedding-industry induced insanity with the decorations, but that is our problem!"

 

[door knob solitaire]

oh...here is an example of how I would handle it...

I would say something like...

We self endulged...went over board and a tad nutts....we orderd an extremely expensive cake so we could enjoy it now without all the hooplaw that will surround the actual wedding. When we only will have time to take one taste. I appreciate your gesture, but I couldn''t possibly allow you to pay for something so extravagant. But I will be serving you two extra slices!

This is really a BIG deal for us...and we are looking forward to enjoying and savoring every bite and feel better than we paid for it.

See how the properties of teflon can be empowering...and can protect you from toil.

 

[Gemma12]

Date: 2/2/2008 12:16:38 PM
Author: door knob solitaire
oh...here is an example of how I would handle it...

I would say something like...

We self endulged...went over board and a tad nutts....we orderd an extremely expensive cake so we could enjoy it now without all the hooplaw that will surround the actual wedding. When we only will have time to take one taste. I appreciate your gesture, but I couldn''t possibly allow you to pay for something so extravagant. But I will be serving you two extra slices!

This is really a BIG deal for us...and we are looking forward to enjoying and savoring every bite and feel better than we paid for it.

See how the properties of teflon can be empowering...and can protect you from toil.

Well said DKS! How can he say no to that when you are praising him for throwing you the party, providing champagne, cleaning up etc-the way that you have explained it above is perfect! I agree, although I don''t know the parties involved, that even a white lie in this situation can be hazardous!