Calling on My Fellow Graphic Designers...

[njc]

If you all do not mind sharing, I am interested in what kind of schools you went to and what degrees you have, what your current job is and how you got it.

I have a BFA in Graphic Design from Virginia Tech and currently working with a large company doing marketing for a government program. I enjoy my job… have lots of variety, and a very warm fuzzy feeling about it (my work basically helps recruit blood donors for the military community), but its not my dream job. My dream job is to work for I guess a marketing firm. Someone that has some big clients and work that gets noticed. A place where its okay to be a little edgy, the clients are open to new ideas. Some place that has cool work... maybe even start my own business like Tacori.

So my point of this is trying to figure out how to do it. I didnt go to an art school, but have what i think is a decent portfolio. One of my first thoughts is grad school, which I am interested in, but unsure of what I should go for or if I even need it and if I do, what kind of degree? A MFA in Graphic Design, MA in Marketing, MBA in Marketing?

I just want to see what everyone else has done and if anyone has any advice!

 

[ame]

Date: 10/6/2005 11:20:36 AM
Author:njc
If you all do not mind sharing, I am interested in what kind of schools you went to and what degrees you have, what your current job is and how you got it.


I have a BFA in Graphic Design from Virginia Tech and currently working with a large company doing marketing for a government program. I enjoy my jobÉ have lots of variety, and a very warm fuzzy feeling about it (my work basically helps recruit blood donors for the military community), but its not my dream job. My dream job is to work for I guess a marketing firm. Someone that has some big clients and work that gets noticed. A place where its okay to be a little edgy, the clients are open to new ideas. Some place that has cool work... maybe even start my own business like Tacori.

So my point of this is trying to figure out how to do it. I didnt go to an art school, but have what i think is a decent portfolio. One of my first thoughts is grad school, which I am interested in, but unsure of what I should go for or if I even need it and if I do, what kind of degree? A MFA in Graphic Design, MA in Marketing, MBA in Marketing?

I just want to see what everyone else has done and if anyone has any advice!

Personally I don't think your education is as important as your experience and your book. I know when I am looking for work OR for hiring someone, the book and the experience are where you get in. You also HAAVE to know programs and I am a big fan of TESTING people in their knowledge. I don't want someone with just working knowledge of something like Quark or Illustrator. You gotta run circles around ME. In my experience, if you have no experience or a crappy book and managed to get hired, you got hired by someone who has no idea what they need to find or you slept with someone

[;p]

I am an "art director" at an Advertising and Marketing Agency. I can tell you this: not all it's cracked up to be. I am not sure about how your field works, but I know in this one, designers are disposable and get paid NOTHING. We make less than the receptionist and usually even less than a Janitor. And we do all the work and are expected and "required" to work 60+ hours on a 40 hour salary. We get very little time off, regardless of the vacation policy. They won't approve it and they have and do fire people who use their sick days or take time off when it's not been approved. That said, they are lax about some things, as we can wear whatever we want, and as lon gas we aren't gone for 3 hours at lunch they don't care. But the management and buddies of management can do whatever they want, such as leave for any amount of time and just not come back if it's a nice golf day.

I have an AA, a BFA, and a MA. All in this field. I personally regret putting this much time into my education for a field that I don't get much professional or personal gratification. This field or maybe just this type of job has broken me, it has destroyed my spirit. I am looking for other ways to do this type of work and not endure this crap.

We have HUUUUUUUUGE international clients and some smaller local clients, not just in my area but all around. I have a decent amount of variety I guess but I don't get paid or acknowledged for what I do. I don't like to bust my butt for someone else to get a raise.

 

[jcrow]

ame-didn''t know you were in Design. No wonder you are a perfectionist.

I have a BFA with a concentration in GD from the University of Louisiana at Lafayette (use to be USL and is now UL). I thought about getting further education in this field, but found work instead. I worked at a really small agency and had wonderful clients with local, national and international clients. it was awesome. now i am at a larger firm- and it''s really different. we have lots of clients and stable work-but it''s not the same.

 

[Ann]

What a timely thread.

My daughter is graduating in May from University of Texas @ Austin with a degree in Advertising and is considering grad school. Does grad school really help or is it your portfolio? She is only 20 and maybe not really ready for the real world out there!

She has had internships and currently has one with a small ad firm. She does know lots of programs and is pretty useful to the firm she is at. Of course she is not paid.

Just how bad are the starting salaries in GA ? Do you really need to go to NYC to break in? I think she''d love to be an Art Director. I would hate to see her bust her butt for grad school and it not even matter. Her GPA is very high and she is such a strong student and perfectionist. All the hard work for - what??

 

[jcrow]

Date: 10/6/2005 1:25:44 PM
Author: Ann
What a timely thread.


My daughter is graduating in May from University of Texas @ Austin with a degree in Advertising and is considering grad school. Does grad school really help or is it your portfolio? She is only 20 and maybe not really ready for the real world out there!


She has had internships and currently has one with a small ad firm. She does know lots of programs and is pretty useful to the firm she is at. Of course she is not paid.


Just how bad are the starting salaries in GA ? Do you really need to go to NYC to break in? I think she''d love to be an Art Director. I would hate to see her bust her butt for grad school and it not even matter. Her GPA is very high and she is such a strong student and perfectionist. All the hard work for - what??

well - i would say yes it''s your portfolio that counts. i have even heard top people in the business say that if a person with a kick-butt portfolio with no degree is pitted up against a person with high GPA from great school that has a weak portfolio- they are possibly going to choose the kick-butt portfolio. i know that''s a bit extreme---

i would suggest starting out working locally till she gets experience then go get-em in NYC. Austin is a very great place to start. lots of larger firms don''t want to hire unless you have 3 years of experience.

 

[Tacori E-ring]

I have a BFA in Graphic Design from Ohio University. I graduated in 2002 and it was VERY hard to find a job with Sept. 11 in everyone''s memories. One firm I interviewed for said they liked my book but he has to fire 75% that winter and he was scared to hire anyone so soon. After freelancing for a marketing firm I became frusterated with the pay and lack of control (like Ame mentioned what they bill you out and what you get is crazy) so two years ago I decided to take a risk and start my own firm with a friend that has a business/marketing degree. For the most part I love being my own boss. I love having creative control. It is great to share in the profits also

The pros are there but so are the cons. Obviously it is not as stable as working for a larger company. Our billing is inconsistent. Some months very high, some low. We pay for our own benifits. That sort of thing. Also I have to spend time doing things I hate...like bill collecting. It can be frusterating when people just don''t want to pay (doesn''t happen too often, 3 people in two years but it is still a pain). For the most part I am very happy and proud that I am creating something. If you are thinking about branching out on your own the overhead is so low so it is very low risk. Our company has always been in the black. We mostly work with small and medium size companies. We have done some work for large companies but personally I like working with smaller ones. You don''t have to go through so many people to get designs approved, that sort of thing. I don''t know if this is what I will be doing forever but I feel like I am getting good experience. Sometimes I get lonely and crave the company of other creative people (like when I was in art school where you could bonce ideas off each other). I think depending where you live and connections you might have really help. If you are serious about it you can always PM for advice.

 

[Tacori E-ring]

by the way I can just see you Ame testing people, scary...

 

[jcrow]

i agree- owning your own GD business is very different than working with in a firm. You have to be great in business as well, not just great in the creative side.

 

[Tacori E-ring]

Date: 10/6/2005 1:38:57 PM
Author: jcrow
i agree- owning your own GD business is very different than working with in a firm. You have to be great in business as well, not just great in the creative side.

That''s why I have a business partner, she does all the things I hate like go to networking meetings and "courting" clients. She is in charge of bring in the work and then I do the work.

 

[laney]

Let''s see, some people on my staff are GD''s, and I work with our marketing communications department (internal to a company) with a bunch of GD''s.

The work isn''t really all that interseting after a while. When you get down to it - the same designs over a period of time is what is needed for branding - so new ideas are .. well not that common - and when we do - we usually go to an agency.

I find the happiest designers are those at agencies. We use an agency http://www.gkdesign.com/ for a lot of our concepts, branding, imaging, etc. Then our GD''s make the ideas practical.

If I were a GD looking to do creative stuff - I''d look toward an agency like G&K. They get to play around with ideas and concepts for all types of media, print, TV, internet, etc. They get to work with a variety of companys - so the work is always different. BUT the pace is really high. And you get tons of criticism on your work. Not that it isn''t good - but it may not meet the customers need.

I am a "consumer" of this -- as I run many internet campagins and sometimes are involved in the imaging of our proeducts for the US market.

 

[ame]

Date: 10/6/2005 1:07:06 PM
Author: jcrow
ame-didn''t know you were in Design. No wonder you are a perfectionist.

I wish other designers were. Unfortunatrly I deal with many who are not.

 

[ame]

Date: 10/6/2005 1:25:44 PM
Author: Ann
What a timely thread.


My daughter is graduating in May from University of Texas @ Austin with a degree in Advertising and is considering grad school. Does grad school really help or is it your portfolio? She is only 20 and maybe not really ready for the real world out there!


She has had internships and currently has one with a small ad firm. She does know lots of programs and is pretty useful to the firm she is at. Of course she is not paid.


Just how bad are the starting salaries in GA ?

In Missouri, $7.50 an hour is a high starting rate. They think tha's too much.

Your experience and your portfolio are far more important. Some places require a BFA though. She has to be sure she keeps that experience on her resume. It will help her in the end.


PS..if anyone wants my credentials or an insight to my client roster PM me.

I wish more students would get Internships. You have 10x more likelihood of getting a job period if you have gotten experience that way.

 

[jcrow]

Date: 10/6/2005 1:45:55 PM
Author: ame

Date: 10/6/2005 1:07:06 PM

Author: jcrow

ame-didn''t know you were in Design. No wonder you are a perfectionist.

I wish other designers were. Unfortunatrly I deal with many who are not.

So do I!

 

[jcrow]

on sites like aiga.org you can look up salaries for creative positions in differnt parts of the US.

 

[ame]

Unfortunately its so inaccurate in some cities. It is a good guage to shoot for but I say it''s at least 20% high.

 

[jcrow]

Date: 10/6/2005 1:58:17 PM
Author: ame
Unfortunately its so inaccurate in some cities. It is a good guage to shoot for but I say it''s at least 20% high.

I completely agree! when i graduated i scoped out this site and salary.com and got so pumped about what i would be making---- wrong! didn''t happen- in fact it was really far off!! for me and others i knew!

There are lots of opportunities out there- but you have to be PERSISTENT!! you have to fight for it, or else someone else will!

 

[njc]

Wow guys. Thanks so much for the responses so far.

Ame - what you said about vacation, pay and how you are treated is one concern for me. At my current and previous jobs it really was a 9-5, 40 hour work week. There are always times you need to put in the extra work, but its not every week. I also CANNOT stand someone else getting credit for my hard work. That would drive me up a wall.

When i graduated, i knew grad school was a waste of time because i had the skills and portfolio. I dont know why i now feel that it would help me. I feel like you (although i dont have to put up with the same crap), i love doing GD but want a fun, exciting, non-crap, perfect job. For whatever reason, to me that would be an Ad/Marketing agency. At my current position i am the lowest paid by a good $15k... also have the grand illusion that an ad agency would pay me more...

jcrow - how are things different? Were you happier at the smaller firm?

Ann - I had internships that i thought would make me a ringer for jobs out of school. It took me 8 months and i will forever be grateful for my boss at my first job for letting me get my foot in the door. It was amazing the response i got when i was looking for my current job. My first job was in my hometown an hour south of DC creating ads for a newspaper. I got paid $24,5000 before taxes. I lived with my parents to save money because if i rented i would just break even every month. Then i got my current job 10 min outside of DC and started at $40k... i thought i had died and gone to heaven. But now being married and trying to pay a mortgage, it aint cuttin it. Luckily DH has a SUPER job, but still... grades dont matter much in this field.

Tacori - my boss is a Buckeye! My one thought about grad school is that it might help if i really wanted to do my own thing. It seems like it would be great when the time to have kids rolls around. I also have people always calling me asking me to do something for them. But having steady work like you said is the trick.

I just dont know! Anyone heard of Aquent?

 

[jcrow]

i was happier there. yes the money sorta sucked, but the work/experience/clients/co-workers were awesome. going to a larger ad agency- (30+ people) has it''s benefits and downfalls. more people to go through internally to get work appoved sucks. also more people = more opinions. the work is definitely not as fun either.

 

[Tacori E-ring]

Date: 10/6/2005 2:23:38 PM
Author: njc
Wow guys. Thanks so much for the responses so far.

Tacori - my boss is a Buckeye! My one thought about grad school is that it might help if i really wanted to do my own thing. It seems like it would be great when the time to have kids rolls around. I also have people always calling me asking me to do something for them. But having steady work like you said is the trick.


I just dont know! Anyone heard of Aquent?

I am actually a bobcat. Ohio State and Ohio University are two different schools. I have not gone to grad school and the only reason I would is so I can teach later (I was a TA my senior year and loved it) If you are already getting people asking you to do work for them that is a great start. We came up out our rates by finding out what other companies charge in Charlotte. My DF and I want to start having kids right after we marry so I am very excited that I am in a position to work from home. It is a great perk. besides day care is expensive! My DF also makes good money so if in the future I have a bad month it is not a huge problem. I have always been somewhat of a risk taker so I think it is exciting. I know that if something happens I am building experince and can always get a 9 to 5 (eek, that is a scary thought after being self-employed and working my own hours) I have heard of Aquent but have never used them. My partner contacted them however because they do farm out work to smaller firms.

 

[Tacori E-ring]

Date: 10/6/2005 1:45:55 PM
Author: ame

Date: 10/6/2005 1:07:06 PM

Author: jcrow

ame-didn''t know you were in Design. No wonder you are a perfectionist.

I wish other designers were. Unfortunatrly I deal with many who are not.

That really surprises me. I just assumed GDers by nature were perfectionist. When it comes to my work every line, every space, every detail of it has to be perfect.

 

[ame]

I have used Aquent for temp-to-hire work. A friend of mine got a great job at a big firm here, Zipatoni, through that and then got laid off when they lost their 2 biggest accounts back to back. (Bacardi was their biggest and it went bye bye)

In some cities Aquent is GREAT. In others, its not. I would think major markets have betterl uck, like LA, Chi, DC and NYC

 

[ame]

Date: 10/6/2005 2:37:29 PM
Author: Tacori E-ring

Date: 10/6/2005 1:45:55 PM

Author: ame

Date: 10/6/2005 1:07:06 PM


Author: jcrow


ame-didn''t know you were in Design. No wonder you are a perfectionist.

I wish other designers were. Unfortunatrly I deal with many who are not.

That really surprises me. I just assumed GDers by nature were perfectionist. When it comes to my work every line, every space, every detail of it has to be perfect.

I deal with a lot of folks who don''t zoom in to line things up. When you make mini segments for your line, at least make sure they join. Goodlord, drives me nuts.

 

[njc]

Opps... my bad Tacori! I read Ohio State

I was thinking of signing up on Aquent to see if there was some part-time side work i could to maybe satisfy my "what am i missing" feeling. Also a possible way to make connections for a better job, more in my portfolio, etc.

I am so laid back overall, but when it comes to the finer details in my work... ANAL!

 

[ame]

I say it won''t hurt to go through Aquent. It''s worth a shot. What''s the worst they can say? NO?

 

[Tacori E-ring]

njc- Everyone thinks Ohio State=Ohio University. It doesn''t bother me

It''s an honest mistake. I think trying part-time work is a great idea. If you do decide to branch out on your own I honestly don''t think you need a masters. Like Ame said they are going to be looking at the quality of your work not how much education you have. My clients NEVER ask about my education. I am not sure how much you are making now but you probably could work part time on your own and make close to the same salary you have now. Good luck!

 

[Jr22]

Date: 10/6/2005 1:25:44 PM
Author: Ann
What a timely thread.

My daughter is graduating in May from University of Texas @ Austin with a degree in Advertising and is considering grad school. Does grad school really help or is it your portfolio? She is only 20 and maybe not really ready for the real world out there!

She has had internships and currently has one with a small ad firm. She does know lots of programs and is pretty useful to the firm she is at. Of course she is not paid.

Just how bad are the starting salaries in GA ? Do you really need to go to NYC to break in? I think she''d love to be an Art Director. I would hate to see her bust her butt for grad school and it not even matter. Her GPA is very high and she is such a strong student and perfectionist. All the hard work for - what??

In my opinion, she SHOULD go for the Grad school degree. Now let me preface that I am not a graphic designer or in advertising but I have a business degree. Experience means TONS so tell her to keep her internship and start her grad degree. Although, what might be good also is get a job and do the grad degree part time.

 

[Tacori E-ring]

I still think that sometimes a masters degree can hurt a designer starting out. Real world experience is what most employers look for. When we look for freelancers I tend to be wary of recent grads. Usually they harder to work with, unrealistic with timelines, and their egos have yet to be broken. Sometimes even if they are talented it just doesn''t work out. Because of this I think she should get a year under her belt BEFORE returning to school. Also she might demand a higher salary with more education. As an owner I would not pay more for JUST education. No way.

 

[Ann]

this is great advice....

she is coming home this weekend and I will show her this thread.

a few weeks ago, both bosses were out of town and a client wanted a promised ad, that the bosses had not done. She put one together in a few hours and they loved it. Not earth shattering, it at least it gets published. And an entry for her portfolio.

 

[surfrgrl]

Hey Tacori -- I''m a Bobcat, too! Graduated in ''81. Yikes, I''m old!

Old enough to have slogged through a 20+ year career in advertising. I''ve worked at small agencies, large agencies, sweat shops and even a creative "country club" where the creatives were pampered like divas, and paid as such, too. I''ve also spent 5 years on my own as a freelancer/marketing consultant.

In my experience, it really is your book that gets you in the door-- and your acumen as a business person. Can you learn a client''s business (quickly) and develop a creative strategy for them that will get them customers -- and sales? And then, can you execute that strategy in a fresh, impactful way? People who can do that are the most valuable in this field. They get the best jobs, the best work on the best clients, and therefore their book gets better, too. So it''s easier to get the next better job or promotion.

I think expanding on your "extra-curricular" work to develop your book, to demonstrate the things above, would be a great way to break into an agency with more of the kind of opportunity you crave. Do your friends, family, friends-of-friends, etc. own or manage small/medium businesses? Ask them if you can do some work for them in trade or on a pro-bono basis, or even at a low hourly rate. Then, take the opportunity and run with it. People you know, as well as small-business owners are often more receptive to "edgier" work than the big clients with the big advertising budgets on the line. Take advantage of it and demonstrate your ability to understand their business and come up with powerful ideas. See how many you can get executed and into your book. At the very least, look at some current ads, TV spots, internet campaigns, etc. and demonstrate how you might do them differently. A killer book can be the ticket to an agency job, no matter what your education. And, agency experience or ongoing experience with a freelance client on the side can pave the way to going out on your own when the time is right.

Best of luck and feel free to ping me personally if I can help. The ad biz is a wild ride. As Ame describes, there are some pretty wacky, unfair and unscrupulous characters in this hyper-competitive business that can make it hell for the more hard-working, sensitive of us. On the other hand, there can also be places to work where the fit is just right, you''re working with like-minded people, and you can''t believe you get paid to do what you do every day. Chances are, if you have a career of any length, you''ll experience it all.

 

[ame]

Date: 10/6/2005 8:10:48 PM
Author: Tacori E-ring
I still think that sometimes a masters degree can hurt a designer starting out. Real world experience is what most employers look for. When we look for freelancers I tend to be wary of recent grads. Usually they harder to work with, unrealistic with timelines, and their egos have yet to be broken. Sometimes even if they are talented it just doesn''t work out. Because of this I think she should get a year under her belt BEFORE returning to school. Also she might demand a higher salary with more education. As an owner I would not pay more for JUST education. No way.

Exactly. A degree of that caliber without the experience, not going to help.

Ann--have her get a copy of the ad in it''s actual printed matter, if it''s in the Chron, get the whole page, that''s called a tearsheet. If she can get a few copies, all the better.