Catch 22!!!!!

[katrina_33]

I get so torn about the "right" way to deal with pre-engagement angst…

On the one hand, I want to be pro-active. I hate the image of a girl just passively waiting and waiting. If I''m so concerned about this issue, it only seems right to get it all out there in the open, and get some concrete info about his timeframe. Part of me thinks it''s a good idea to also have some kind of firm mental cut off, where if it hasn''t happened I move on.

On the other hand, I want this to be his initiative - I want to know he proposed when he did because he really wanted to and not at all because I pushed it. If I bring it up routinely, it will seem like I''m pushing, it will make it seem like my idea not his, and limit the chances for him to surprise me. Like a lot of people around here have said, if he''s planning something and you initiate a ''big talk,'' he can''t do it for a while, so routinely bringing it up could stall the process even more, and just generally takes some of the mystery and romance out of it.

I don''t feel like it''s fair to have a private deadline at which I''ll leave if he doesn''t even know I have such a deadline, and indeed hasn''t even really had fair warning about how much the waiting is getting under my skin. But, I would never want to give him an ultimatum or deadline ("if we''re not engaged by this time I''ll leave") either. (I hope this is a non-issue really soon and I never have to seriously consider this anyhow of course!)

Does anyone else feel this way? I guess it''s wanting to have my cake and eat it too.

I know many of you do initiate conversations about rings and wedding plans, and do check in periodically about why it hasn''t happened yet / when it can be expected, but lately I''ve been really considering the cons that come with this. It seems like going this route can kind of sour the experience sometimes, to be quite honest.

But, just waiting and not having really concrete discussions about it where I clearly articulate my own desires/expectations is really frustrating and disempowering.

Don’t get me wrong, it’s not like I haven’t let on that I’m ready and wanting to get engaged, I just haven’t really let on that the question of when exactly it will happen is driving me nuts. We do talk about it, but I just haven’t been comfortable taking it to the level where I’m asking him specifically when I can expect it.

What''s a girl to do!?!?!

How does everyone else feel about how much control should be exerted over the process?

How do people feel about deadlines / ultimatums?

 

[wcitygirl]

Katrina!

I feel your pain. And isn''t that "not knowing how to handle it" part of the angst? It''s so confusing!!!

I agree with all sides of your argument. I mean, if something is bothering you, you should talk about it right? (Or NO?) Well, then I talk about it and I feel like I''m that wedding cake topper from Blue Chica (see Boy Soon post) -- dragging my boyfriend into something that he HOPEFULLY wants to do -- from what he says, he does?

Overall, i just feel like throwing my hands up in the air and getting 50 cats and calling it a life. (Although, I don''t love cats, maybe dogs.)

But, being the crazy cat lady....

Sometimes I feel like, you know, it shouldn''t be this tough. It should be a really happy time, right?

We have our own deadline -- August 1. That''s when he''s moving to go to grad school and expecting me to join him (which I''m not doing unless engaged). How do I feel about it? Well, part of me feels like it causes more stress and bad feelings, but I do think you have to have some kind of standards.... Ugh. See, I''m just as confused as you.

 

[snow_happy]

Hi katrina,

I think I am in a somewhat similar situation. I hate the idea of giving an ultimatum and saying you are going to leave because the thought of losing that person is unbearable! I''ve struggled with a few things during this pre-proposal time. Namely the communication factor. My bf and I are great at communicating about everything so the secret-ness of the proposal and the ring, although justifiable necessary, sorta drives me crazy. I''ve gently asked him about how long until I get my "shiny thing" (code word for the ring) and he just smiles so I say like.. "a year or two"? thinking "boy soon" and he seemed shocked and said "no, for sure not that long"...but I''m still telling myself in my head that it''s going to be AT LEAST 6 months...just so I don''t get overly anxious.

I understand your dilemma but you can bring it up lightheartedly and give him the option to not answer if it''s a "secret". I don''t think that will delay the timeline. That way you get an idea of what he is thinking without ruining the surprise or seeming pushy. I''ve often asked my bf if he is just proposing because I am a nutcase and want to talk about everything having to do with "our future" and he said it wasn''t that way at all. (that made me feel so much better!) I don''t have other friends who are close to getting engaged but my own experience is that if you have confidence in your relationship and have talked about getting married then you are not pushing him into getting engaged.

Make it clear to him that you want to be surprised and you can''t wait to be engaged and you''re not trying to be pushy but.... maybe he can give you a time range?

I don''t know if any of that made sense but hopefully something in my ramblings will help

 

[Bikergirl]

I typically stay out of these types of discussions.....but I guess it''s OK to post once in a while and not just confine myself to being a lurker.

My experience is just that - my experience. Please don''t construe it is any sort of advice, because I''m not licensed for that sort of thing.

I personally hate ultimatums. I would tend to choose in a way that would upset the person giving the ultimatum - just because I would resent them for putting me in a difficult situation. Because of this, I try not to make others uncomfortable in that way.

My now husband and I have been together 3.5 years. The only conversation we ever had about marriage was on our second date (believe it or not), when actually he brought it up. He told me that he really liked me, that he wanted to have a relationship with me, but that if I was set on a marriage-track or a baby-track, he wanted to know up front because he didn''t like to be pressured into life-altering decisions.

After much ribbing from me about having a conversation like that on our second date, we laughed about it and started a wonderful relationship.

After dating almost 1.5 years, I was starting to feel the "commitment itch" if you want to call it that. I was surfing the web one day and found a ring that I was in LOVE with

So I emailed him a picture, with the statement that if he ever decided to buy me a ring, I like the looks of that one. He sent me back a picture of motorcycle parts, saying those are the kind of rings he preferred.

I continued to be happy with my independence, and have grown a LOT as a person over the past few years. I''ve started racing bicycles, I''ve learned to ride a motorcycle, went skydiving for the first time, finished my college degree.....the list goes on!

While I was growing as a person, our relationship also continued to progress. His mother became ill and wanted to move to the city (she lived approximately 2 hours away from medical facilities). DH wanted to help her, but could not do it on his own. I approached him and told him that I would be happy to help, but it would have to mean some sort of commitment from him, because I also couldn''t do it on my own. So I bought her a house, and I moved in with DH.

Three months later, we were engaged. In fact, we almost weren''t engaged. When he asked me if I would spend my life with him, I was so shocked by the question that my reply was "Are you serious?"

OK, so I''m a dork. Anyway, we determined that he was, in fact, serious, and of course I said yes. I had known for over a year that we would get married, but I also knew that I had to let him determine that on his own. We were married 10 months after he asked me.

Just for reference, I was 26 when we met and I''ll be 30 in two months. To give you an idea where I am "in life."

For him, he needed a different kind of reassurance. He needed to know that I wasn''t going to nag or pressure him about such a big decision. He needed to know that I was able to maintain my independence within the confines of a relationship, and not turn to a whining ball of mush that couldn''t function as a person without him. And he needed to know that I would be happy with him, in spite of his flaws - one of which happens to be a fear of commitment.

Once he knew that I would be around no matter what, and that I wouldn''t loose my identity, and that I wouldn''t pressure him into something he wasn''t sure about/wasn''t ready for - all of his fears were gone!

 

[snow_happy]

Bikergirl,

That is such a great story!

katrina,
I think it definitely comes down to the fact that all men are different and have a different level of what they do and don''t want to talk about. It''s important to communicate to know his "level" and not make him feel uncomfortable. If he''s open to talking about it then you can ask him but if not then just let the situation unfold itself in whatever timeline it happens.

 

[blueroses]

Katrina, it IS a catch 22. You''re damned if you do and damned if you don''t: If you do try to be involved/stay informed-updated/proactive, whatever you call it, yes it DOES sour the experience. (Though some of our graduates say that that fades away post-proposal.) And if you do/say nothing at all, then yes you get a surprise and a non-feeling-nagged boy, but you DO feel disempowered and helpless/waiting around.

It can go to icky extremes (see the boysoon/girlsoon thread, or Erin''s stay or go thread.)

When I actually joined PS--after a few weeks of lurking--was with that EXACT question: how do you girls feel about deadlines/ultimatums. The answers other girls posted are buried back in the old "anxious to get the e-ring" thread, somewhere around 11/15 and in the days beyond, when I was really feeling the weight of my Thanksgiving faux-deadline.

Long story boring, it sucks, and I don''t think there''s one formula--like Bikergirl said, her experience is her experience, and ultimately, that has to be the way for each of us.

As for me, I don''t know how long I have it in me to wait the way I have been doing, but I know I have to change my approach or we either WILL break up, or my head WILL implode!!

 

[fatafelice]

Katrina,

I''m right there with you!!! I was just trying to talk to one of my girlfriends about that yesterday. She was sympathetic, but I don''t think she quite understood my level of frustration. You said it just right.

My BF and I have been together over 6 years. At one point, it seemed like we would be engaged within months, but we were both too young (still in college) and we ended up taking a 6 month break. Since we''ve been back together, things have been very different. We didn''t start completely over, but we certainly didn''t pick up where we left off! Now, we''v been back together for just over 2 years and living togther for over a year. I''m realizing that the title of "boyfriend" just doesn''t represent how important he is to me. And I want to know that he wants me to be his wife. I know that if I push him, he will get frustrated. I also know that he is a MASTER procrastinator, even about doing things he wants to do, like buying himself a new power tool!

I think that I have decided to give him all of my ring ideas and info, maybe take him shopping one more time (we''ve been once, but I didn''t get to try any asschers!), and tell him the ball is in his court. I do wish that we could talk about timeframes, but I am trying to force myself to relax. After everything we have been through in the past few years, it will be WAY more special to me if he does everything on his own and it is a complete surprise (even though he isn''t very good at surprising me!) All that said, if I haven''t even gotten the question by 2006 (almost don''t care about the ring anymore...almost

), we are going to have a serious talk.

I don''t know if that helps, since I think I just said basically what you said, but just know that you are definitely not alone!!!

 

[katrina_33]

Thanks guys. I love hearing people say to relax, trust him, and let it unfold rather than make demands and a mental exit strategy. This is my natural inclination.

That said though, I think some playful questioning really is in order!!!!!

It just makes me feel strange when I''m asked about it by my friends who either are already engaged / married or have no desire to be. Some of them seem to secretly think that this is a case of me getting "strung along" or that he''s not being fair to me because he knows I want to be engaged but hasn''t proposed yet. I get these feelings that I need to "stand up for myself," but really I haven''t been wronged. We both want the same thing, but have slightly different senses of how soon we want it. Who''s to say whose ideal time frame is right or wrong? He has never made me expect it and then not done it, and has been upfront about his thoughts and feelings on the subject (ie that he wants to marry me, but doesn''t know exactly when he''ll be ready to officilaly get engaged beyond "soon")

So what''s my problem? Why do I get so antsy and feel like something is wrong with the picture sometimes?

 

[snow_happy]

katrina,

That''s great that he said he wants to marry you! At least then you know he doesn''t have commitment issues! Maybe he just wants to keep it vague because he is saving up money to get you a ring! If so, then you can probably "playfully" (as you said it) see if this is the case

 

[katrina_33]

snow_happy, thanks for the encouraging words, but the situation isn''t *quite* that sunny - he has the $ for the ring, and I think there''s a big diff between saying you want to marry someone and being ready to propose and move forward with it. I am glad that he says I''m the one and he wants to marry me openly and often enough. He ALWAYS talks about our future, even distant future as if it''s a sure thing. So no, he''s not afraid of committment and I have no reason to believe that he has doubts about us, but there is a *little bit* of feet dragging going on from his end for whatever reason. I think it''s a combo of spending the $ even though he has it (he''s not into jewelery and always hedges on big purchases even if they''re things he wants), and general procrastination / nervousness about taking such a big step into responsible adulthood!

 

[Munchkin]

Wow. Katrina, way too much of what you have written could have come from my key board!

To answer your original question: "Does anyone else feel this way?" Yes. Very much so. I also do not care much for ultimatums, nor do I want to feel as though a proposal only came abut because I pushed for it. I want it to happen when he wants to/ when it is meant to, but I want that to be ten minutes ago!

I also have to deal with those around me implying that he "should" have asked me already or that he is taking a ridiculously long time. It is hard to take when people plant seeds of doubt about the one you love.

I did bring it up when I realized that I was be snappish about totally unrelated things becuase I was so tense about the whole engagement issue. I told him I need to talk to him. I said that I understood that we seem to be at a different stages. I specifically said that I was NOT trying to push for or demand a ring. I said that I knew it would be a disaster if we only got engaged becuase I wanted to , and I wouldn't want that anyway. (Thus I eliminated the "pushy girlfriend" danger!) But, I said that he knows how I feel about it, and he hasn't been as open. I said that I was half of the relationship and had a right to have a better idea of how to go about planning a future that is suppose to include me. So I told him that I would like a rough timeline of when he thought he might be ready. "So, what I am asking you, is are you thinking that we will be engaged within 3yrs, 2yrs, 1 yr, 6mos, what?"

I actually said all the deadlines in a list. I made sure to include longer years so that he wouldn't be saying "one year" just because it was the longest, nor would he feel like a jerk for having a longer timeline in mind. (It's a rough adaptation of some patient interview techniques!)

Does that help you at all? I really hope it does, because I truly understand how you feel!
Munchkin

Sorry! One more thing! I very rarely post here, but I read this board daily. It helps me to see how many other women feel as I do! That is my therapy.

 

[katrina_33]

Yeah, thanks, I like the idea of bringing it up but just asking if it will happen within the next year or two, or something that to me seems very conservative. Hopefully, he''d say "oh no, sooner than that" but if not, at least I''ve picked something that isn''t implying we need to spring into action immediately and that leaves some breathing room for him. Even if he says it will take the full year (which still seems like too long to me, but isn''t totally unreasonable) I have a concrete block of time that I know I''m working with and I can take it from there if it doesn''t happen as said.

 

[Munchkin]

Katrina,
Do whatever it takes to make you happy. Discuss it the manner best for you.

I have to say, though, I felt SO much better after we had openlly discussed it. Up to then, I would sort of talk around the issue in the hopes that he would read my signals and would send out some of his own. I have learned that boys are just not so good at picking up signals or subtleties. After we spoke, I was less cranky and felt like an enormous weight had been listed off my shoulders.

I danced around it for so long, not wanting to offend him, push him, ruin a surprise, etc. Finally one day I said, "Wait a second, this is my relationship too! I have a right to know what the heck is going on here!" That gave me the motivation to have an open talk with him about it.

Good luck!
Munchkin
Man, I have been a posting fool today! I think I''m going back into the lurkers'' corner now!

 

[snow_happy]

I think Munchkin has a great point. As long as you are clearly respectful of his position and thoughts then you can have a conversation about it and be as ease (hopefully). If you feel he''s hesitant to actually pop the question then he probably can sense how you feel too... so he might think you are continuously thinking about it but he doesn''t know how to say it might be a year or two. Kind of like...when you know someone is thinking about something but they won''t say anything but you feel pressured anyways? You want to make sure he''s not feeling that way so I agree with Munchkin in that once you are open about it you will both feel better. Ultimately it''s up to you since you know your bf the best.

Keep us updated

and good luck

 

[Bikergirl]

Well, as for the peers/family/pressure issue - I did get a lot of that in my situation. I basically told people (in a nice way, of course) that they were not a part of my relationship and would be told things on a need-to-know basis. When or even if we were going to get engaged was not something they needed to know! They I basically set about planning our lives together as if we were already married. That''s why I felt comfortable signing a mortgage on a house for his mom. I wouldn''t have thought twice about it if we were married, I knew we would always be together - even if he never proposed to me - and it just seemed like the right thing to do.

We also had talked about our future together - but not in terms of marriage. We had talked about savings, about children, about pets, houses, careers, retirement, vacations - basically everything BUT marriage. I was happy knowing that we had common goals and that we both intended to always be together.

He was happy knowing that I was willing to be with him, was taking steps to protect our future together, but that I was OK still being my own person at the same time.

Like I said, it was just my situation. But I do know that if I had hit him up with a bunch of discussion specifically about marriage, getting engaged, setting a date/timeframe/whatever - he would have thought that I was looking for a "meal ticket" or that I was going to become "high maintenance" after we were married. For me personally, it was better to just "pretend" that we were already married, and go about life as a couple.

And honestly, I didn''t care if we ever got married. I know lots of people who have had successful marriages, I know lots of people who have gone through nasty divorces, and I know lots of people who have been a couple for decades and have stood by each other through everything - all without a marriage license. To me it''s about the commitment, not about being married (if that makes sense). I know lots of people have religious issues with that statement, but that''s why some situations are great for one person, but inconceivable for another!

So basically, after all that - I would say do what''s best for you.

 

[windy1365]

A man isn''t going to marry you just because you give him an ultimatum... he''s only going to marry you if he wants to spend the rest of his life with you. So, if you feel like talking with him about a time frame of getting engaged... then do so!! I would ease into it. Does he talk about your future together? If so, that is a VERY good sign!! If he doesn''t, then I would be worried.

My fiancee and I had a weird relationship at first. He had never been in a relationship before me where he actually cared for the girl he was dating. He fell in love with me and told me after five months. He had never told any girl this before. Stupid me didn''t tell him that I loved him back. I was infatuated with him for sure... I thought he was hot and so smart.... but I just couldn''t say those words. A couple of weeks later, I tried to tell him... but it was a little late. He started backing off and tried to end things. I wrote him a long letter telling him about how much I cared for him and loved him, and we ended up staying together, but we didn''t say the "L" word for two months. Those two months were just awful... I would go out and drink with my friends and just cry. Finally, I couldn''t take it anymore. We has a trip scheduled to go to Cozumel, and I said... "I need to know if you love me or not. If you don''t, then I am going to move on. I don''t see the point in going to Cozumel with you if you don''t love me." He said of course he loved me, that he wouldn''t have stayed with me if he didn''t.

I then wanted to move in with him so bad... but I was so scared to say anything to him, thinking the relationship was on shaky ground since we had almost broke up a few months before. Then, I had all kinds of anxiety about wanting to marry him... just like you. But, I was afraid to ever confront him about anything. Our relationship continued on like this... after a year and a half together, he thought he was going to get a job overseas. He was not going to go without me. Some how, this turned into a conversation about how we could get married. The next week, I picked me out an engagement ring on Blue Nile, and the next week we were engaged. We had a year long engagement, and we''re getting married in nine weeks!!

Everything that I wanted to confront him with but was too scared to, I have brought up and settled it.

My point in all this is that I was in your same situation... I wanted to marry him so bad, but I was too chicken to say anything. He wasn''t even going to ask me for another six months from the time he did.... imagine the extra anxiety that I avoided!!! We went from being gf bf to engaged and living together over night!! Maybe this will happen to you!!

 

[Erin]

This is just my situation but sometimes bringing it up ''playfully'' can end up coming out more often than you even realize you''re doing it and can appear to be pushy if you''re not careful. Better to have the knock down drag out once. Also, if you ask 3,2,1 years, 6 months and he answers 6 months, just be prepared in case 6 months comes and goes. That doesn''t mean it''s not going to happen, just don''t build it up to be a contract. Everything still has to happen at the ''right'' time.

 

[sparkling]

I am keeping my mouth shut (about the engagement) and being as nice as is humanly possible

. I think its important for him to realize regularly why I''m so darn loveable and for him to feel like being in the relationship is much better than being without it. As my grandmother used to say, you catch more flys with honey than vinegar.

This has not been easy. When I heard about the planned engagement ring budget my head almost exploded

because it was so far from approximating remotely what I wanted and what had been discussed in the past (he actually suggested if I was getting side stones maybe I should downgrade, rather than upgrade the stone he had to trade in from a previous engagement-never have I heard of a trade-down-but I digress). I handled it by saying, if that''s what you feel you can spend, it won''t come near covering what I want so I''d rather just get matching wedding bands; maybe you can buy my dream ring later for an anniversary. He significantly revised the budget when he could tell I was really upset (I don''t feel bad about this given that our disposable incomes could easily cover what I want), but I was proud that I managed to not go postal and to come up with a response that let him know while the ring was important getting married was more important.

Now if I could just figure out what that dream ring is!!!

 

[katrina_33]

I''m not going to say anything yet. He''s up for a big gig, and will find out soon if he got it. If he gets it, it will be a chunk o change, and it would be a natural time for the issue to come up and the ring shopping process to really get started.

Last we spoke about it, we were at a wedding together, and he asked me how much the kind of ring that I''d be happy with would cost. I told him and asked "are you shocked and appalled?" (he hates jewelery and particularly diamonds because of the whole cartel / false rarity and falsely inflated prices issue). He said no, it seemed reasonable. Then he asked if eng rings are something people finance, or if they usually pay cash. I said some use credit cards, some pay cash. He is never the type to finance anything though, not even cars.

The last time we had a discussion about buying furniture for the house (which we''d been planning to do for a while), he said he actually didn''t feel comfortable getting office furniture until he gets another big gig. So maybe most of the hold up is financial. Because of the way he makes $ (in large chunks, but he never knows when he''s getting more, it could be a year or two) it''s always hard to make big purchases and feel comfortable with it.

So, if he gets this gig, but he still hasn''t brought up the issue, I will initiate a big talk.

But I''d like to wait and see, and give him the chance to totally initiate the conversation about ring shopping, in case this is the only thing he''d been waiting for. I don''t know for sure that it is. He never said that outright. Another conversation we had about it was in October, and he said he just wanted to be 100% ready and mature enough, and only felt about 80 or 90% ready to get married, but things were on the right track. He didn''t give a concrete time frame though. So at that time, I didn''t think the hold up had anything to do with finances, but lately I''ve been getting signals that maybe that''s all it is these days.

I''m going to chill out and stop fixating for a while, and then if I need to bring it up earnestly and head on in a few months, I will. I think Erin''s right that the continuous "playful" references are kinda passive aggressive and can grate on someone, even though I would somewhat prefer to talk about it this way rather than initiating a big serious discussion.

 

[windy1365]

Sparkling... your dog looks just like my dog!! My Cavalier is really grumpy and moody... is yours, or did I get a defective dog?

That is so cool that you refused to take a less than perfect ring. You will have to wear that ring forever, so you need to get exactly what you want to get. My fiancee financed mine. Most men have no idea how much e-rings cost... the nice solitaire ones, that is. Use the argument that it is more of an investment than a car, so that''s why it isn''t cheap.

Katrina... you could always propose to him. Just kidding. I feel your pain because I felt like that for about six months before we actually got engaged. I started feeling like that after we were together a year, so I knew that it was way too soon to even bring it up. I just knew that he was going to ask me that Christmas, but Christmas came and went. Lots of guys know when they are with the one they want to marry one day, but they aren''t ready to take that step yet. The last wedding that I went to, the girl had pressured the guy to either propose or she was out the door. She was 33 and ready to start having kids. She wasn''t going to waste her time on him if he didn''t want the same thing. The guy proposed and now they have a baby on the way. My fiancee is friends with him and said that the guy wouldn''t have married her if he really didn''t want to. She just pushed up his time frame some.