choosing a blue sapphire for all lighting conditions

[Lula]

Help! This is my first foray into colored stones. I would like to upgrade my uncertified, ungraded, approx. 1 carat blue sapphire purchased over 10 years ago, with something that won''t go dead under low lighting.

Its color (according to appraisal) is dark blue with royal blue flashes. High clarity. Emerald cut. Pretty useless, I know!

This stone was not a super dark, blah mall stone. It did have a lot of blue color to it in daylight. However, what I really disliked about it was in dim light it would "go dark."

What should I look for in a new stone to avoid this?

I''ve been considering several Richard Homer stones through Wink. I''ve also e-mailed Wildfish with a few questions on their stones. But I don''t really know how to judge the color, or even what to ask for (correct terminology).

On some sapphire education sites, I read that the key to good color performance is to choose either a kashmir or cornflower blue color, with vivid intensity. I also read that Mogok, Burma sapphires retain their color better across all lighting conditions. Ed from Wildfish said I should stay in the medium-dark 60-70 range.

Help! What have other PS''ers experiences been with sapphires in dim lighting conditions? What would you recommend. And, of course, photos of your beautiful gems appreciated!

 

[arjunajane]

Hi Sara,

I am by no means an expert as I have just purchased my first sapphire and haven''t seen it in person yet.
I would expand your search to include Jeff White - he has great material to cut and is very patient with questions.

there are two new JW sapphires on the board atm - spirit''s

As far I can tell, Sapphires are notorious for "bleeding" their colour in low/incandescent lighting conditions. I''m not sure if you will find one that will hold perfect colour across all lighting arenas, due to this inherent property.

I don''t know how you feel about violet, but you could go for a colour shifter that goes from blue to violet/purple in incandescent - this way you get a "new" colour, not just a darker one.
From my understanding, both Spirit and my stones'' fit this bill..

 

[arjunajane]

also, not sure if you've seen this oft-referred to chart, but I found it helpful when asking vendors for the specific colour I was after.

Sometimes I think trade names like Cornflower may just cause confusion, as many could have a different interpretation of it's meaning.(including the consumer)..
link to chart

 

[ma re]

Another non-expert here. Arjunjane gave some good advice about color change sapphires, which are also often more affordable than the "usual ones".

Also, I might not be 100% right on this, but I believe that so called bleeding of color happens more with extremly clear stones i.e. those of the highest clarity grades. Some almost microscopic inclusions can actually reduce this effect while not influencing overall beauty too much, but it takes some knowledge and experience to know what are minor inclusions and what is reduction in clarity or even worse, durability.

 

[arjunajane]

Thanks Ma re ! But colour change being "more affordable" ? It was my understanding it was the opposite - unless of course by "the usual ones" you mean Kashmir material?


Sara, just for you I dragged out my RW Wise book on a sunday arvo, as I thought I understood this subject from his chapter on blue sapphire.

It seems, according to Mr Wise, if you are seeking a stone that will hold it's colour across most lighting conditions, than you are looking primarily for a Kashmir blue (ie. the most exxy of them all!).

This "bleeding" is related to the dichroic properties of sapphire, and as Ma Re mentioned, I believe is also affected by the amount of silk (inclusions) in the stone.
Kashmir's are typically known to be more "silky" than Burma or Ceylon sapphires, hence "bleed" less. (anyone, if I'm butchering this, please do correct, lol).

According to Wise - "Kashmir sapphire.....will maintain its hue as the viewing environment is shifted from daylight to incandescent lighting".


However, after saying all of that - unless your budget is pretty extensive, you may have an issue obtaining a Kashmir of any colour and size that will satisfy you.
Ceylon blues have really become the standard in recent times, and if you are patient and contact a number of vendors, I'm sure they could come up with something to meet your requirements.
Than again, if you are cool with the colour shift mentioned above, a Ceylon could be perfect for you (and save you a pretty packet).

I hope no one minds as I realize these have been posted already - but I thought they were illustrative for the sake of this thread, and hopefully Sara it will explain a lil better in photo what I've been rambling on about

imho (going on photos only), my Ceylon doesn't really bleed - it simply changes from it's primary blue to it's violet secondary, depending on light source.

 

[Lula]

Thank you so much arjunajane and ma re! I''m glad there is a term for what I see -- that my sapphire "bleeds color."

And thanks for the photos -- yours and Spirit''s color change stones are gorgeous, and I actually have been looking into color change stones as an option.

I''m also wondering, in light of the comments about silk and inclusions, if I should be looking at non-heat treated stones that preserve the silk. I know that true kashmir stones are only available as vintage stones, and even then there''s no guarantee you''ll get the "real thing." But it does seem that at least some of the stones coming out of Mogok, Burma, have the same "sleepy" look as the kashmir stones, and I''ve seen some Ceylon stones that appear "sleepy" as well. They are very expensive.

As for my budget, it seems my choices are:
a very much smaller kashmir-like stone, unheated/untreated
or a decent size color-change stone (you''re right, arjunajane, they''re not always inexpensive!)
or a larger size "typical" stone.

But I''d be willing to go with a smaller stone if I could get one that didn''t "bleed color" at night.

I''ve been very impressed with the prices of Richard Homer''s stones, and I am wondering if the concave faceting would improve the color of the stone in low light, too. Wink says Richard''s stones are very bright.

Anyone out there who has a Richard Homer Stone care to chime in?

 

[arjunajane]

You''re very welcome Sara, I''m glad my info helped a lil..

I understand ''Cind11'' has a RH sapph set in a JM 1345 setting. Also ''secondhandnews'' has a gorgeous flat faceted antique cushion from RH. That member had their ring made by BGD - if you go to the BGD blog and search on sapphires, I''m confident you will find it.
I know Brown Eyed Girl also has a concave RH sapphire set in a lovely ring.


As far as concave vs traditional faceting, this is an extremely personal decision - some people love concave, a lot do not. As with everything with CS, I suggest just looking at as many different stones as possible..(preferably in person?)

As to whether concave could improve the colour of a blue sapph in low light..well, I''d be tempted to say a preferred PS traditional faceter like JW could achieve the same effect..but I don''t have any technical info to back this up

.
I would recommend asking a variety of vendors that do both types of cutting what their take is on the subject, and just seeing who you "gel" with.


As to your budget options - may I ask, why it is so important that the stone doesn''t bleed at night/in low light etc..?

As you''ve mentioned, this is your first foray into CS - if you do a lil bit of reading, you will soon find their performance is quite different to diamonds.
Many CS are known as either "day" or "night" gems, dependent on how they react best to different lighting environments.
Just fyi, it is quite rare to find a variety that will look the same in all lighting - that is really the nature of coloured gems is their versatility/changeability

 

[LD]

I''m rubbish at distinguishing between Kashmir, Cornflower blue etc etc so have no idea which (if any) my Sapphire falls into. What I can tell you is that this is my only sapphire that holds its colour in all lights. It''s vibrant all the time and the only time it loses a bit of intensity is in natural daylight - although even then it''s still bright.

I don''t know if that helps?

 

[AustenNut]

Very interesting topic! Are sapphires of all colors similarly affected, or are the darker stones more afflicted? Or perhaps is it that all colors are afflicted, but the lighter ones just go to a darker shade which is still quite visible in darker lighting conditions?

 

[MakingTheGrade]

Date: 10/25/2009 10:06:48 AM
Author: AustenNut
Very interesting topic! Are sapphires of all colors similarly affected, or are the darker stones more afflicted? Or perhaps is it that all colors are afflicted, but the lighter ones just go to a darker shade which is still quite visible in darker lighting conditions?

I have a well cut native-cut blue sapphire that does "bleed" color and take on a slight grey cast indoors, though it's a lovely blue outside.

My padparadscha sapphire (orangy pink) looks lovely in all lighting I think. It goes more orange under the yellow bulbs, and more pink in natural day light, but looks yummy in both.

 

[innerkitten]

I have one blue sapphire. It''s a midnight blue color from Burma. Beautiful in certain lighting, almost black in others

Arjunajane, I''d never heard that before and it''s great advice about the color change. I love your sapphire BTW. Lovingdiamonds your stone is lovely. Where is it from?

 

[arjunajane]

Date: 10/25/2009 10:06:48 AM
Author: AustenNut
Very interesting topic! Are sapphires of all colors similarly affected, or are the darker stones more afflicted? Or perhaps is it that all colors are afflicted, but the lighter ones just go to a darker shade which is still quite visible in darker lighting conditions?

Hi Austen,
the properties I was describing above are distinct to blue sapphire..however I cannot speak to whether other colours (eg. a pap.) are similarly affected..I'm sure someone more knowledgeable can weigh in....

I think the final part of your comment rings true (at least to me) - ie. a blue sapph that is quite dark to start with in natural light, will appear to "bleed" more in low light, vs. a lighter toned one..

 

[arjunajane]

Date: 10/25/2009 11:05:03 AM
Author: innerkitten
I have one blue sapphire. It''s a midnight blue color from Burma. Beautiful in certain lighting, almost black in others

Arjunajane, I''d never heard that before and it''s great advice about the color change. I love your sapphire BTW. Lovingdiamonds your stone is lovely. Where is it from?

Thanks IK!

I agree, the colour on that stone LD is fantastic. Do you know if it is heated or not?

 

[LostSapphire]

Hello Sara

Here are some photos I did a while back when my ring was done. This is a Jeff White Sapphire. As you can see, different lighting (or even combinations of lighting) changes the stone dramatically.

I found that if the stone is a good colour and well cut, it will "show" well in most lighting conditions. But then there is that occasional situation where it goes dead. I''ve gotten over that!

LS

p.s. hope these aren''t too big...I''ve resized them a bit. 5 in total.

 

[LostSapphire]

..

eta: oops, too small. Let me try that again

 

[Spirit]

LD - your stone is unbelieveable! Love the colour as well as the way it is set!
About silk- my JW stone is unheated and has two tiny silk lines going through one end of it . They are almost invisible but I knew they were there so I was searching for them! I believe the silk indicates an unheated stone. I also agree with Arj that it is possibly more expensive to purchase a colour changer.
One added comment: There are different ways the cutter can work with the stone in order to preserve as much colour as possible. With mine, I know he used a specific cutting style in order to maintain the richness. Over the weekend we have had a chance to play with our new sapphire in different lighting, at different times of the day. It is a wonderful trick that nature has created- to be able to see so many colours out of one little stone!
Sarap333 - I hope you find what you are looking for.

 

[LostSapphire]

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[LostSapphire]

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[LostSapphire]

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[LostSapphire]

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[LostSapphire]

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[LostSapphire]

Sorry for the pic overload but sometimes it's good to document the stone in many lights before making a decision.

Second to last one: BLUEBERRY IN THE DIRT.

LS

 

[LostSapphire]

And here it is on a very overcast day in the rain. You can see the drops on the sapphire (no, those arent'' scratches!).

Hope this helped.
LS

 

[WinkHPD]

Lovely gem and lovely series of photos!

For those who want to see how a gem will look in several lights, one easy way is to look at the gem in the store lighting, then hold it under the display case out of direct lighting. This will quickly identify the bleeders and the poorly cut gems as they will quite often go dark or loose their color once out of the direct lighting.

It is also helpful to get your salesperson to walk you out into the hallway and if possible out of doors to see even more dramatic color ships and changes in the appearance of the gem in various lightings.

Your better cut gems will tend to hold their beauty more, regardless of any color changes, than the more poorly cut gems which only look good in the direct lights.

Wink

 

[Lula]

Wow, thank you so much LD, Arjunajane, MTG, Austen, IK, and LS for all the responses -- and the photos; they are super helpful.

LS, your beautiful stone is one I''ve long admired on SMTR, and I liked the "rockumentary" of it under different lighting conditions. I noticed in your dim light (7:30 p.m.) photos, the sapphire does darken, but the lovely blue flashes are still present. Perhaps this is due to the cut (mine was an emerald cut).

The "good quality" sapphires I''ve seen in real life have been at Tiffany''s in Chicago, and the ones in the showcase were all in the classic deep blue color. I''ve only seen a color change sapphire IRL once in my life, and it was owned by a friend of mine. It was lovely, and the first time I saw it was in a dimly lit restaurant and the colors it threw off were spectacular. I know it was an expensive stone, too!

Ed from Wildfish suggested to me in an e-mail that if I did not want a stone that "goes dark," that I might be happier with a medium dark 60 - 70 sapphire rather than the deeper medium dark 75 - 80 sapphires.

That''s why I''m wondering about the specs on LD''s incredible stone; it seems to be closer to the color that Ed was recommending for me. And LD does mention that it is the only sapphire she owns that maintains its color under different lighting conditions. It''s a gorgeous stone, LD, in a color that I don''t see much around here where I live in the Midwest.

But how reliable are the numbers used to grade color? Is one vendor''s MD 70 going to be similar to another vendor''s MD 70?

Here''s why I''m torn -- my favorite shades of blue sapphires are the deep blues, but they do seem to bleed the most under low lighting, though after getting input on this thread, I''m seeing that stone quality and cut quality, and type of cut (RB vs emerald) may mitigate that some.

To answer your question a few posts back, Arj, good color performance under low lighting conditions is important to me this time around because it used to really bug me when I''d wear my sapphire out at night to dinner at friends'' house or at a restaurant, and it would just be blah under low lighting -- especially because I knew it was a high quality stone! In daylight, under fluorescent light, and in jewelry store lighting, it was a magnificent deep blue with lovely lighter blue flashes.

I sold this ring over the summer because I just didn''t enjoy wearing it anymore; the setting was dated, too, and rather than spend the money on having it re-set, I thought I''d just do the research and buy a new sapphire. I''m not sure if I have any digital pictures of it, but I''ll post some if I can find any.

The CS forum is great -- so many helpful people with really nice eye candy. I''ve learned a lot on here already. This sapphire obsession has helped occupy my time while I wait for my anniversary ring (diamond set in purple sapphire halo, custom design by Wink). Wink told me the purple sapphire melee in my ring are diamond cut so they will sparkle. I''m curious to see how their color changes under different lighting conditions -- though it may be hard to judge in melee size. And I have to say, I''m not too concerned about what they''ll look like in dim light -- I chose the purple simply because I like the color.

And Arj, your comments about the nature of colored stones, and choosing them for their intrinsic beauty rather than their performance across a variety of lighting conditions was well put. I need to put my RT mindset aside (where the goal is to find a diamond that performs well across all lighting conditions!) and think about what it is about sapphires that I love and look for a stone that makes me swoon instead of worrying about performance. My previous sapphire ring was an engagement ring and I wore it all the time. This new sapphire ring will be more of a RHR, so I don''t have to be so concerned how the color of the stone changes under different lighting conditions. Duh! That didn''t occur to me until I read your responses.

I really appreciate all the suggestions on vendors -- I just looked at Jeff White''s site, and it''s too bad pink tourmaline looks awful with my skin tone, because I saw a very nice one on his site!

 

[Lula]

Date: 10/25/2009 12:51:01 PM
Author: Wink
Lovely gem and lovely series of photos!


For those who want to see how a gem will look in several lights, one easy way is to look at the gem in the store lighting, then hold it under the display case out of direct lighting. This will quickly identify the bleeders and the poorly cut gems as they will quite often go dark or loose their color once out of the direct lighting.


It is also helpful to get your salesperson to walk you out into the hallway and if possible out of doors to see even more dramatic color ships and changes in the appearance of the gem in various lightings.


Your better cut gems will tend to hold their beauty more, regardless of any color changes, than the more poorly cut gems which only look good in the direct lights.


Wink

Good advice, Wink -- and I definitely did not do this 10 years ago when I bought my sapphire!!

This time around I will be an educated consumer.

 

[Cind11]

Date: 10/25/2009 8:28:08 AM
Author: sarap333
Thank you so much arjunajane and ma re! I''m glad there is a term for what I see -- that my sapphire ''bleeds color.''

And thanks for the photos -- yours and Spirit''s color change stones are gorgeous, and I actually have been looking into color change stones as an option.

I''m also wondering, in light of the comments about silk and inclusions, if I should be looking at non-heat treated stones that preserve the silk. I know that true kashmir stones are only available as vintage stones, and even then there''s no guarantee you''ll get the ''real thing.'' But it does seem that at least some of the stones coming out of Mogok, Burma, have the same ''sleepy'' look as the kashmir stones, and I''ve seen some Ceylon stones that appear ''sleepy'' as well. They are very expensive.

As for my budget, it seems my choices are:
a very much smaller kashmir-like stone, unheated/untreated
or a decent size color-change stone (you''re right, arjunajane, they''re not always inexpensive!)
or a larger size ''typical'' stone.

But I''d be willing to go with a smaller stone if I could get one that didn''t ''bleed color'' at night.

I''ve been very impressed with the prices of Richard Homer''s stones, and I am wondering if the concave faceting would improve the color of the stone in low light, too. Wink says Richard''s stones are very bright.

Anyone out there who has a Richard Homer Stone care to chime in?

I have a flat faceted heated stone cut by Richard Homer that I bought through Wink. My sapphire does have a tendency to go a bit dark in low light conditions. But the color is beautiful most of the time so it doesn''t bother me.

As far as sapphires being heated not preserving the silk I don''t think that is always true. This is part of what Richard Homer had to say to Wink about my stone "The material it TOP TOP end Ceylon, heat treated but only the typical "gentle heat" employed in the processing of virtually all Sapphire these days...in other words, it was not heated to remove silk or lighten color so it is not brittle due to the excessive temperatures one has to employ to get those kinds of treatments."

 

[LD]

SaraPJ / AJ / IK

My sapphire is heated but not treated. I bought it from a guy I know who specialises in Sapphires.

The one thing I can say is that it never looks black or even navy in any light. It slightly darkens and becomes a tiny bit less bright but that''s about it. TBH I''ve seen tons of sapphires and this is the first that I''ve seen that looks good in all lighting. Interesting point is that it''s not a well cut stone. It''s actually a poorly cut stone but it is deep and I wonder if that makes the difference? So compensates cut for depth?

 

[Lula]

Thanks, Cind11 -- I just looked at your thread about your sapphire. Yes, that''s my favorite sapphire color. Deep, rich, with a lighter blue glow from within.

I did not find your thread with photos of it set in the JM setting, but I''ll look again.

Also, I did not know that Richard cut flat facet stones too -- the cut on your sapphire is incredible. (Wink, I''ll be in touch about this for sure!)

One other thing, I''m so happy to match the screen names with the photos of all the beautiful pieces I''ve drooled over on SMTR.

Cind, your starfish pendant on the SMTR thread is to die for, and I also want you to know that your Maytal Hannah setting was one of the inspiration pieces for my purple sapphire halo anniversary ring from Wink!

 

[WinkHPD]

Date: 10/25/2009 1:16:49 PM
Author: sarap333
Wow, thank you so much LD, Arjunajane, MTG, Austen, IK, and LS for all the responses -- and the photos; they are super helpful.

LS, your beautiful stone is one I''ve long admired on SMTR, and I liked the ''rockumentary'' of it under different lighting conditions. I noticed in your dim light (7:30 p.m.) photos, the sapphire does darken, but the lovely blue flashes are still present. Perhaps this is due to the cut (mine was an emerald cut).

The ''good quality'' sapphires I''ve seen in real life have been at Tiffany''s in Chicago, and the ones in the showcase were all in the classic deep blue color. I''ve only seen a color change sapphire IRL once in my life, and it was owned by a friend of mine. It was lovely, and the first time I saw it was in a dimly lit restaurant and the colors it threw off were spectacular. I know it was an expensive stone, too!

Ed from Wildfish suggested to me in an e-mail that if I did not want a stone that ''goes dark,'' that I might be happier with a medium dark 60 - 70 sapphire rather than the deeper medium dark 75 - 80 sapphires.

That''s why I''m wondering about the specs on LD''s incredible stone; it seems to be closer to the color that Ed was recommending for me. And LD does mention that it is the only sapphire she owns that maintains its color under different lighting conditions. It''s a gorgeous stone, LD, in a color that I don''t see much around here where I live in the Midwest.

But how reliable are the numbers used to grade color? Is one vendor''s MD 70 going to be similar to another vendor''s MD 70?

No!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Sadly, it is nearly impossible to standardize colored stone grading and perceptions. GIA has given it valiant effort over the years as have many others and no one has come even remotely close to getting a system that is easily transferable from one vendor to another. Even though there are some worthy efforts, when I understand one system and attempt to use it with a vendor, they may never have heard of it or at best their interpretation of it is not as mine is.

The science of color description makes the angles and dangles of cutting seem easy by comparison as the color wheel is really an attempt to describe in two dimensions what is taking place in three dimensions. Each gem is properly described in values of hue, tone and saturation. Add to this the complication that when we describe a gem for example as a vivid, medium dark, violetish-blue. (Expressed at vB 6/6) We have set the piece of the color wheel in which that gem resides. However before we get to the next category, lets say vB 7/6 (violetish blue, Dark, Vivid) we may have hundreds or even thousands of colors that fit into the previous category, not all of which are detectable by all eyes. So, while I may be totally correct in describing a gem to you as vB 6/6 you may see a similar but completely different looking gem that is also correctly described as a vB 6/6.

Sadly, with current state of the art equipment, the best I can do is hope to correctly identify a gem within its segment of the color universe, knowing that it is shared with thousands of other colors that are also correctly described within that same segment. And remember, it is not like the easy two dimensional color grade of a diamond, a sliding scale up or down from D-Z. Oh no. This color scale must slide up and down and forward and back from a D that is lighter or darker as well as whiter and brighter. ( I realize what I just said is not gemologically totally accurate, but it captures, I hope, little of the complexity of the issue. We think of the D-Z as a sliding scale and that is how our clientèle tend to think of it, but it really also does have to deal with other issues to but it is no where near as difficult as color naming and describing when we add in the reality of a third dimension.

Here''s why I''m torn -- my favorite shades of blue sapphires are the deep blues, but they do seem to bleed the most under low lighting, though after getting input on this thread, I''m seeing that stone quality and cut quality, and type of cut (RB vs emerald) may mitigate that some.

To answer your question a few posts back, Arj, good color performance under low lighting conditions is important to me this time around because it used to really bug me when I''d wear my sapphire out at night to dinner at friends'' house or at a restaurant, and it would just be blah under low lighting -- especially because I knew it was a high quality stone! In daylight, under fluorescent light, and in jewelry store lighting, it was a magnificent deep blue with lovely lighter blue flashes.

I sold this ring over the summer because I just didn''t enjoy wearing it anymore; the setting was dated, too, and rather than spend the money on having it re-set, I thought I''d just do the research and buy a new sapphire. I''m not sure if I have any digital pictures of it, but I''ll post some if I can find any.

The CS forum is great -- so many helpful people with really nice eye candy. I''ve learned a lot on here already. This sapphire obsession has helped occupy my time while I wait for my anniversary ring (diamond set in purple sapphire halo, custom design by Wink). Wink told me the purple sapphire melee in my ring are diamond cut so they will sparkle. I''m curious to see how their color changes under different lighting conditions -- though it may be hard to judge in melee size. And I have to say, I''m not too concerned about what they''ll look like in dim light -- I chose the purple simply because I like the color.

And Arj, your comments about the nature of colored stones, and choosing them for their intrinsic beauty rather than their performance across a variety of lighting conditions was well put. I need to put my RT mindset aside (where the goal is to find a diamond that performs well across all lighting conditions!) and think about what it is about sapphires that I love and look for a stone that makes me swoon instead of worrying about performance. My previous sapphire ring was an engagement ring and I wore it all the time. This new sapphire ring will be more of a RHR, so I don''t have to be so concerned how the color of the stone changes under different lighting conditions. Duh! That didn''t occur to me until I read your responses.

I really appreciate all the suggestions on vendors -- I just looked at Jeff White''s site, and it''s too bad pink tourmaline looks awful with my skin tone, because I saw a very nice one on his site!

Whew! Hope that helps...