Chrome diopside follow up. :)

[jszweda]

Hi all.

If any of you remember, I had a question regarding wholesale prices and chrome diopside. I finally found something close to what I found. The stone is within the range of the color of what I have, but it''s a little smaller in the dimensions and the carat weight.

As you all probably know, these e-tailers sell stuff well below wholesale. So you figure if you saw the same item in a jewelry store, take what you see and multiply it between 5-12 for a list price, 7-8 seems typical for a lot of things. So when I saw this, I just had to bust out laughing.

http://www.gemselect.com/diopside/diopside-60305.php

It''s a nice stone and they have a good light tent to photograph it, so if that is the equal to Bob''s bargain basement blowout price...

. All I have to say is someone screwed up royally from where I found my rock at, and they can''t tell 18K WG from sterling either.

So needless to say, I am having one hell of a laugh at this. If that is below wholesale at around $180/carat, I think I did well. LOL

 

[valeria101]

Date: 12/2/2005 1:37:07 PM
Author:jszweda

If that is below wholesale at around $180/carat, I think I did well. LOL

1k for 5cts oval... why not. Whatever...

I do not know what to call ''wholesale market'' for an unusual colored stone. On the other hand, I see more and more of these green stones - including pave, believe it or not, mostly in sophisticated yellow gold designer jewelry. If the stone gets more popular (as it seems) it can''t go cheaper. Good for you.

Now, why don''t I remember how yours looks like?

 

[jszweda]

Hi Ana.

The reason you don''t remember seeing a pic of this rock of mine is because I don''t have a cam that is worth anything to photograph it, and secondly the lighting in this place of mine just sucks out loud. It''s like living in a cave. If I want to see what something truly looks like, I have to wait for a certain time of day and go on the back porch and hope the tree doesn''t get in the way of the sun.

I call that the old Thai trick. LOL.

I have heard of the designer using that material in various pieces and supposedly there are some that are saying by the end of this decade, it will be the number one substitute for emerald. That doesn''t suprise me since chrome tourmalines are starting to get rediculous, and tsavorites are getting more and more scarce by the year. The pave doesn''t copletely suprise me since you can find accent stones for this stuff readily, and they''re cheap. When they get bigger and clean, they start to get expensive as you can tell.

One of these days, I would love to put the stone in a men''s setting but I am a little scared to do that. For now, I am just going to let it sit there. I have time, and I have the satisfaction of knowing what it is I have. I do think I know how I got it for so cheap. All I am going to say is, someone screwed up royally.

I figured out their price formula though.

If I had cash on hand the first time I saw it and my loupe on me, that would have been it. If Mom would have lent me the money so I could have repaid her that day, I would have about pulled a 180 on the highway to go back and get it. LMAO That''s ok though. They held it for me till I got back the next day.

 

[riogems]

Hi Joe and others -

I had seen a few posts on this forum about chrome diopside, and price guides, wholesale prices, etc.., and I thought I would use that as a chance to introduce myself and offer some information.

In 2003, the price of chrome diopside started to dive. There are a few active mines in Russia, and they are mining like crazy whenever they can. There is a ton of supply. Later that year, I cleaned out a stockpile and bought around 200 kilos of rough of it. I took a strong position because I felt that I could sell it - it is an untreated stone - beautiful - and I liked that too. There was a huge learning curve in cutting it (maximizing yields, etc...). After time, we began to develop some competitive advantage with this stone.

The gem is beautiful - especially in smaller sizes. As a lot have mentioned here, as it gets bigger, its color becomes dark, overpowering itself. Some people combat this by cutting a thin/shallow stone -- but, the stone may lack something if it is too thin - it may look like a flat window. Some people don''t care if it is thin. Some people also don''t care if it is dark. I prefer a smaller stone myself.

Occassionally there are big stones (by big I mean ~ 4-8ct) that have a lighter tone (similar to the small stones).

As far as pricing guides go - I have written one of the guides linked to in the other thread. Wholesale is not a term that is used with a lot of consistency. Of course, to me, I kind of laugh at the term, because anyone can make a purchase from a website. By definition, wholesale means the sale of goods for resale. If anyone can purchase from a website, it is therefore truly retail. To buy wholesale, you typically have to show credentials, trade references, etc... The word wholesale, however, is often used as a marketing technique. When the internet sprung up, it enabled a lot of gem dealers and new gem dealers to market their stones to the public. Surprisingly, there was a real demand for loose stones from the public (and from small retailers who would otherwise have a hard time sourcing certain kinds of stones).

I''ll speak specific to the chrome diopside market now. Many marketers have tried to change the name, including adding "imperial" to it, etc... Tashmerine however is a completely different color (not chrome) ... and a different marketing plan.

The supply chain is ~ Mining company > a few gem dealers/also lapidaries > big gem dealers and big jewelry factories > smaller jewelry factories/ smaller gem dealers > internet or a store.

This supply chain isn''t linear - maybe if I have time I can draw it out better for reference -- there are usually wholesalers in between the jewelry factories and retailers, except in certain instances (usually very big retailers). Also, a small lapidary may buy some extra rough at a trade show. So there is a question on which stage is the price considered wholesale?

At each stage in the supply chain, value is added. The miners find it and sometimes sort it (sort the rough by quality/clarity). The lapidary cuts it -- adding value in doing so. The big gem dealer adds value too -- one way they can add value is by sorting the merchandise, color matching, etc... Doing that activity has a cost, so nobody really knows their true cost. There is also breakage during handling (stones get chipped or scratched and have to be repolished).

We''re not sure what price is a wholesale price?

We felt a fair price for end-customers or small in-trade customers for the top quality stuff who want to only buy one or a few stones would correspond to this rough pricing guide (in prices per carat):
up to 1ct - $20- $40
1ct - 2ct - $40 - $60
2ct + - $60 - $150

I don''t think the price on that website of $961 is a fair retail price. It is at a pretty good premium to what it should be ~ $400-600. However, without much competition at the 5ct level - who is to say what is a fair retail price is?

From what I gather you own a 7ct nice chrome diopside? I would guess a retail price on that of $1,000 seems fair... and it sounds like you bought it for less than half, so you made a great buy.

I hope this info is helpful, albeit a few months late. Let me know if you have any other diopside-specific questions.

 

[jszweda]

Date: 4/6/2006 3:09:49 AM
Author: riogems
Hi Joe and others -

I had seen a few posts on this forum about chrome diopside, and price guides, wholesale prices, etc.., and I thought I would use that as a chance to introduce myself and offer some information.

In 2003, the price of chrome diopside started to dive. There are a few active mines in Russia, and they are mining like crazy whenever they can. There is a ton of supply. Later that year, I cleaned out a stockpile and bought around 200 kilos of rough of it. I took a strong position because I felt that I could sell it - it is an untreated stone - beautiful - and I liked that too. There was a huge learning curve in cutting it (maximizing yields, etc...). After time, we began to develop some competitive advantage with this stone.

The gem is beautiful - especially in smaller sizes. As a lot have mentioned here, as it gets bigger, its color becomes dark, overpowering itself. Some people combat this by cutting a thin/shallow stone -- but, the stone may lack something if it is too thin - it may look like a flat window. Some people don''t care if it is thin. Some people also don''t care if it is dark. I prefer a smaller stone myself.

Occassionally there are big stones (by big I mean ~ 4-8ct) that have a lighter tone (similar to the small stones).

As far as pricing guides go - I have written one of the guides linked to in the other thread. Wholesale is not a term that is used with a lot of consistency. Of course, to me, I kind of laugh at the term, because anyone can make a purchase from a website. By definition, wholesale means the sale of goods for resale. If anyone can purchase from a website, it is therefore truly retail. To buy wholesale, you typically have to show credentials, trade references, etc... The word wholesale, however, is often used as a marketing technique. When the internet sprung up, it enabled a lot of gem dealers and new gem dealers to market their stones to the public. Surprisingly, there was a real demand for loose stones from the public (and from small retailers who would otherwise have a hard time sourcing certain kinds of stones).

I''ll speak specific to the chrome diopside market now. Many marketers have tried to change the name, including adding ''imperial'' to it, etc... Tashmerine however is a completely different color (not chrome) ... and a different marketing plan.

The supply chain is ~ Mining company > a few gem dealers/also lapidaries > big gem dealers and big jewelry factories > smaller jewelry factories/ smaller gem dealers > internet or a store.

This supply chain isn''t linear - maybe if I have time I can draw it out better for reference -- there are usually wholesalers in between the jewelry factories and retailers, except in certain instances (usually very big retailers). Also, a small lapidary may buy some extra rough at a trade show. So there is a question on which stage is the price considered wholesale?

At each stage in the supply chain, value is added. The miners find it and sometimes sort it (sort the rough by quality/clarity). The lapidary cuts it -- adding value in doing so. The big gem dealer adds value too -- one way they can add value is by sorting the merchandise, color matching, etc... Doing that activity has a cost, so nobody really knows their true cost. There is also breakage during handling (stones get chipped or scratched and have to be repolished).

We''re not sure what price is a wholesale price?

We felt a fair price for end-customers or small in-trade customers for the top quality stuff who want to only buy one or a few stones would correspond to this rough pricing guide (in prices per carat):
up to 1ct - $20- $40
1ct - 2ct - $40 - $60
2ct + - $60 - $150

I don''t think the price on that website of $961 is a fair retail price. It is at a pretty good premium to what it should be ~ $400-600. However, without much competition at the 5ct level - who is to say what is a fair retail price is?

From what I gather you own a 7ct nice chrome diopside? I would guess a retail price on that of $1,000 seems fair... and it sounds like you bought it for less than half, so you made a great buy.

I hope this info is helpful, albeit a few months late. Let me know if you have any other diopside-specific questions.

Thanks for the reply.

I do appreciate the info for sure.

In case you didn''t see it in this thread or I didn''t mention it in this thread, the first stone that I thought was a chrome diopside was a fake. I got had on it, but I did get my money back on that. I then went back to a reputable vendor who had some loose stones for a higher price than what I paid on that fake (not realizing it was a fake of course).

What I ended up getting was just shy of 4 carats. It''s actually a 3.93ct, and this one is real. It is the epitome of what GIA was describing in a newsletter in response to a question someone asked about green spodumene and chrome diopside. So based on that very detailed description as to what to lool for and after I louped it, it has everything they are talking about.

The stone I have has some tone to it, and although it''s a somewhat deep pavillion, it''s not overly dark. I would say pending on the light, it faces up in the 6-7 range. Doing the Thai trick as I call it on the back deck, it''s not dark like you would expect. The inclusions with what I ended up getting are just beneath the surface of the crown and they are not eye visible. It was the biggest rock the guy had in that size at the time.

Some of the network shows are starting to sell these things again. It was a few weeks ago that one had a few bigger ones, and the rest were calibrated sizes. I could tell that many of them had windows in them to some degree. The prices were reasonable, but for what they wanted for the one 4.40 carat they had was more per carat than what I found mine for. They said the next batch they get would not be quite as cheap either. So I don''t know what the deal is there for sure, but supposedly finding something in a size larger than 5 x 7 is a pain for Asian dealers. I don''t know how true that is or isn''t, but I wouldn''t doubt it.

About a month ago, on another network, they had a 4.04 carat in a ring they were closing out. My father saw it and he said it was darker than hell, and it was really cloudy. There was no brilliance to it, and the diamond weight was some clean chips in a simple band. They wanted a fortune for it. With that particular show, if it''s dark on camera, when it comes to the door it''s going to be really dark. LOL.

Your "wholesale" guide sounds like it''s inline with a ring I saw back in 2003 actually. It wasn''t a very large stone, but I liked it over the chrome tourmaline the same store had. Based on your guide, and pending everyone''s markup in retail and other things I''ve heard since I made the original post, it sounds within ballpark.

I appreaciate the insight on the stone though.

I was considering mounting it in a ring at some point way later on if I get the chance to, but I am really skeptical on doing that in part due it being a 5-5.5 on Mho''s scale and being sensitive to heat.

 

[riogems]

Wow - it was a fake? That''s not necessarily a surprise for me though. There are really not that many of these big chrome diopsides out there. There was one seller on ebay selling these 4-8ct diopsides everyday. They were obviously fake; and they were selling for $15-30/ct max. They were taking in $20-40k/month for a good deal of months. Some people who were burned told me ebay wouldn''t do much to stop them, but they reported it to the local district attorneys office. The funny thing is 97-98% of people still left them positive feedback. I''m sure most will never know they have a fake stone.

 

[jszweda]

Adam,

It was a fake and it was bought at a jewelry store. I didn''t have any plans of buying anything at all until I saw that particular ring. When I saw it, it looked exactly like a chrome diopside. The woman said it was, and I told her to hold it till I got out of class the following day.

It was very clean, and the price was right. So I jumped on it simply for the stone. I went to get it appraised. The guy couldn''t find the RI in his book but confirmed it was not a chrome diopside. So I didn''t pay a dime on that, and then I went and sought the expertise of a manufactuer across the street from the store the appraiser was at. She agreed it was no a chrome diopside, and based on her books, the RI was smack dab in the range of synthetic quartz. She looked at it and said she even had some items that were almost that exact shade of green, and she showed them to me.

I went back to the guy who sold it to me, and he said that his vendor told him it was chrome diopside and he relied on that information. That may be the case, but he had no clue. So he gave me my money back except for a few dollars in sales tax...I figured I''ll let that go. He said 5.7ct on the stone, I think it was more like 5.7 grams, which would put it near 30 carats. So somebody can''t even determine between carats and grams, and I had no way of really knowing for sure.

So I said that is the last time I ever deal with that guy again. Everything I heard prior to that initial purchase was that if you could find something past a carat, you did good. Anything in the 2 carat range is near impossible to find (clean at least). The last time I checked with the vendor the 3.93 came from, he had 2 stones in the 2-3 carat range. Everything else was way smaller, and he had some small parcels totaling 2 carats maybe. Now half of what he has in chrome diopsides are cabachons. The vendor I got the one I have isn''t the same as the link I put in this thread initially, FYI.