Colored gems vs diamonds

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

GIA have many videos on their channel showing coloured gem stuff.
e.g.

I am appalled at the primitive approach to cutting "the more expensive the rough, the more weight we have to save" etc.
polishing by hand - no tools, no optics, no scan and plan.
This is as it was 2,000 years ago except the have electric motors and not treddle wheels.
Forgive me, but I had no idea that these people were still in the dark ages. How sad.

 

[Rockdiamond]

Interesting subject Garry!
For me, it brings up a few important topics.
As a trader, GIA is important for reasons of having a benchmark.
So GIA producing what amounts to a promotional video- which includes the names of companies that sell- is a problem for me.
Considering it as promotional, I didn’t find the video to be misleading about cut as it was so.... general.
In terms of accuracy of cutting- that’s another interesting debate. People who love older stones are drawn to the hand hewn aspects. Some people live wonkiness. They’re not ‘wrong” imo

 

[WinkHPD]

Garry,

I believe it was sometime in the 1990's when my friend Richard Homer was hired to train cutters to improve the beauty of the gems they were cutting. After a month on location the quality of the work was incredible, and the price per carat being received for the gems much more than compensated for the additional loss of the starting rough.

[Side note: Richard Homer is mostly known for his concave faceting work, but long before he developed the style of work he is known for now, he was also a phenomenal cutter in the traditional flat facet style of work. I am purposely not mentioning the name of the country he was hired by, but suffice it to say that he was not limited to working with people using primitive equipment. Top of the line equipment at their disposal, and still cutting to about the quality that appalls you in Jaipur.]

Richard left with the understanding that he would come back in a short while and take the cutters to the next level when they had been given the time to hone their new ability and understanding of how to create incredible beauty.

When he returned, all but one or two of the cutters he had trained were cutting to their former level. It was what they were comfortable with.

Wink

P.S. I wrote this earlier today and thought not to hit the publish button, but now with Rock saying that wonk is not wrong, I cannot sit this one out.

Rock, for those that love wonky, with will always be there. To cut it on purpose is just fine. To cut it because you don't know any better, well that I have a problem with.

I rarely sell colored gems anymore, even though they were my first love. When I do get a call for one, it hurts to see how few people take pride in their cutting. I happily pay more for well cut gems, as do my clients.

 

[arkieb1]

I'm not sure why it's a surprise, cutters in places like Vietnam, Sri Lanka and various parts of Africa cannot afford power let alone sophisticated cutting equipment, even in China unless they work for a factory or for bosses of a cutting company most of the workers cannot afford modern cutting machines.

Gemstones have mostly always been cut for size and colour not for better cutting, I've bought rough to have cut and yes in a lot of cases getting a beautiful gemstone is great, but in some instances when the material is rare losing 2/3rds to 3/4s of the rough to precision cutting isn't so great, so I've sent the rough to more basic cutters I know, to get a better balance ie yield a larger stone that is still O.K cut preserving as much of the material as possible.

It's more complex that you might think, native cutters really understand the larger the stone, and the less rough lost the better. Precision cutters often simply cut to get a beautifully cut stone, but they shrug and just deal with the high loss of rough material..... if you have just paid a small fortune for the rough losing as little weight as possible AND ending up with the best looking stone possible sometimes is just as important.

Another example that comes is mind, is I had some top coloured Vietnamese cobalt spinels custom cut by an outstanding cutter in the US, to obtain a small number of French cuts, he shattered and destroyed (because Luc Yen cobalts are heavily included, small, and crumbly) 2/3rds of the entire parcel of rough. Can you imagine Garry diamond cutters losing 60% of their rough, to shattering and breaking? Keep in mind Luc Yen cobalts cost way more per carat than diamonds do.....

So, it's probably not as black and white as comparing coloured stones to diamond cutting.

If I was going to get a common type of stone cut or recut I'd send it to a precision cutter in the US. If I was getting something rare cut sending it to an Asian or a European cutter that knew what they were doing you are talking about a 40% to 65% yield (native or local cutters) versus a 20% to 40% yield US precision cutting. At least that's been my experience. It might not seem like much but the difference between ending up with a 1 carat stone or a 2 carat stone in rare material, the end size (both carat weight and how it faces up when set) significantly impacts the value of the gem you end up with.... so if a decent native cutter ends up with a 1.10 carat stone versus a precision cut .80 carat stone it can have a vast impact on both the price and who wants to buy that stone. And the locals know exactly "how" to cut stones like the cobalts I mentioned without exploding too many of them....

 

[WinkHPD]

Many years ago, in the early two thousands I think, I went to Thailand for ten days. I took Resa with me and we did tourist things for a couple of days, attended the Bangkok gem show for a couple of days, did tourist things for a couple of days, then Resa headed home to visit her sisters and I went to Chanthaburi for a Saturday gem market with some other American buyers. It was about a 5 hour drive from Bangkok and six or seven hours buying with a break for lunch with the owners of the market, and then driving back to Bangkok with our new treasures. We left at four in the morning from Bangkok and returned there well after midnight.

It was a glorious experience. I bought fat bellied gems for a fraction of what I would pay in this country, and when I got home I sent them all to Richard Homer to be recut for me. All of the gems lost at least 20% of their weight, but it was such a joy to see the after and before pictures. It was like John Belushi transforming into Arnold Schwarzenegger.

The better cutting greatly improved the color as well, since now the light was being properly moved through the gem material and absorbing the color of the stone. Only one gem did not come out well, it went from a strong color to a very deep color that is too dark for my taste. Its new owner loved the darkness though, and she got the gem at an incredible price. All of the gems sold within a year, mostly to local buyers who had never seen such treasures.

One of the most common comments, "How can you sell this so inexpensively?" I just shrugged my shoulders and wondered when I could find the time to go back again. I never did make the time. I fell in love with a certain diamond and do not have time to do both properly, so I do what I do best, and I shall remember fondly my trip to Thailand and the wonderful people I met there.

So, I must admit, if I were to continue with colored gems, I would thank those who cut poorly and let me buy it cheaply so that I can have the fat cut away to reveal the muscle man who was just waiting to be released.

Wink

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

A few comments inside your post Arkieb

I'm not sure why it's a surprise, cutters in places like Vietnam, Sri Lanka and various parts of Africa cannot afford power let alone sophisticated cutting equipment, even in China unless they work for a factory or for bosses of a cutting company most of the workers cannot afford modern cutting machines. This was Jaipur which has electricity and money. No excuse.

Gemstones have mostly always been cut for size and colour not for better cutting, I've bought rough to have cut and yes in a lot of cases getting a beautiful gemstone is great, but in some instances when the material is rare losing 2/3rds to 3/4s of the rough to precision cutting isn't so great, so I've sent the rough to more basic cutters I know, to get a better balance ie yield a larger stone that is still O.K cut preserving as much of the material as possible. I have been fighting that issue with diamonds for a very long time - longer than many reading this have been alive. Maybe I need to do a HCA for gemstones?

It's more complex that you might think, native cutters really understand the larger the stone, and the less rough lost the better. Precision cutters often simply cut to get a beautifully cut stone, but they shrug and just deal with the high loss of rough material..... if you have just paid a small fortune for the rough losing as little weight as possible AND ending up with the best looking stone possible sometimes is just as important. Again - that is the point - I do not tolerate it in diamonds. how many windows could disappear in gems with 2-5% weight loss and the stones still stay above critical weights!!!

Another example that comes is mind, is I had some top coloured Vietnamese cobalt spinels custom cut by an outstanding cutter in the US, to obtain a small number of French cuts, he shattered and destroyed (because Luc Yen cobalts are heavily included, small, and crumbly) 2/3rds of the entire parcel of rough. Can you imagine Garry diamond cutters losing 60% of their rough, to shattering and breaking? Keep in mind Luc Yen cobalts cost way more per carat than diamonds do..... Ask him to go to Albuquerque and I will arrange for Scott Sucher to teach him not to do that. Scott specialises in fragile rough. e.g. Sulphur faceted gems.

So, it's probably not as black and white as comparing coloured stones to diamond cutting. It is same same. But there are no boundaries and no judgements and no cut quality on certs. Appalling!

If I was going to get a common type of stone cut or recut I'd send it to a precision cutter in the US. If I was getting something rare cut sending it to an Asian or a European cutter that knew what they were doing you are talking about a 40% to 65% yield (native or local cutters) versus a 20% to 40% yield US precision cutting. At least that's been my experience. It might not seem like much but the difference between ending up with a 1 carat stone or a 2 carat stone in rare material, the end size (both carat weight and how it faces up when set) significantly impacts the value of the gem you end up with.... so if a decent native cutter ends up with a 1.10 carat stone versus a precision cut .80 carat stone it can have a vast impact on both the price and who wants to buy that stone. And the locals know exactly "how" to cut stones like the cobalts I mentioned without exploding too many of them....

 

[arkieb1]

@Garry - post this over in the coloured stones section and ask a lot of the coloured stone collectors, the older ones that have a number of stones what they think.

I have precision cut stones that are lovely AND I have not precision cut stones that are lovely, some of my favourite stones are not precision cut. Unlike diamonds the difference is I buy for colour first and foremost.

You are making the assumption that non precision cut = poor quality, what I'm arguing is some of the best results I've had with rough material is cutters that deliver a good balance of the two ie they get a larger looking stone or better yield than some of the best precision cutters who lose far more than 5% extra, these guys can lose 20% or 30% more which equates to dollars lost in rarer gemstones, AND they still know how to cut something that doesn't have windows and isn't an ugly cut.

Not all native cut stones are off centre, and ugly cuts, far from it. Some of the best native cutters can cut beautiful stones, some of them without modern equipment.

Most gemstones are not rounds so I have no idea how you would do a HCA for them....

I don't agree there are no judgements and no boundaries, each time someone buys a gemstone they make a judgement on what is acceptable to them. The Chinese for example are starting to buy more precision cut gemstones as a whole, the middle and upper class have always favoured the best coloured and if possible gems with as few inclusions as possible. They have slowly worked out they want better cuts and some of the larger gemstone dealers have responded to that by offering better cut gems. You won't see stones that are badly cut or with windows from many of them any more.

And many of the big dealers (and some of the smaller ones) are responding to both what the Asian and even to a degree the US market wants by not only cutting better stones but also by recutting gemstones as well. Yes that's right they buy them or they look at what they cannot sell and they have specific stones recut to a better standard.

 

[Rfisher]

I always thought John Belushi was hot.
Arnold S, not so much.

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

@Garry - post this over in the coloured stones section and ask a lot of the coloured stone collectors, the older ones that have a number of stones what they think.

I have precision cut stones that are lovely AND I have not precision cut stones that are lovely, some of my favourite stones are not precision cut. Unlike diamonds the difference is I buy for colour first and foremost.

You are making the assumption that non precision cut = poor quality, what I'm arguing is some of the best results I've had with rough material is cutters that deliver a good balance of the two ie they get a larger looking stone or better yield than some of the best precision cutters who lose far more than 5% extra, these guys can lose 20% or 30% more which equates to dollars lost in rarer gemstones, AND they still know how to cut something that doesn't have windows and isn't an ugly cut.

Not all native cut stones are off centre, and ugly cuts, far from it. Some of the best native cutters can cut beautiful stones, some of them without modern equipment.

Most gemstones are not rounds so I have no idea how you would do a HCA for them....

I don't agree there are no judgements and no boundaries, each time someone buys a gemstone they make a judgement on what is acceptable to them. The Chinese for example are starting to buy more precision cut gemstones as a whole, the middle and upper class have always favoured the best coloured and if possible gems with as few inclusions as possible. They have slowly worked out they want better cuts and some of the larger gemstone dealers have responded to that by offering better cut gems. You won't see stones that are badly cut or with windows from many of them any more.

And many of the big dealers (and some of the smaller ones) are responding to both what the Asian and even to a degree the US market wants by not only cutting better stones but also by recutting gemstones as well. Yes that's right they buy them or they look at what they cannot sell and they have specific stones recut to a better standard.

Cant be bothered Arkie
Every time I go there i get the same old diamonds are not rare etc
if any of them want to come and play in my backyard they are welcome

 

[kenny]

I always thought John Belushi was hot.
Arnold S, not so much.

+1

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

I think there would be way more sapphire mined each year, and the cost of finding them and mining them would be minuscule compared to diamonds. So I guess it makes sense to not care too much about the value added quality.
Sad

 

[Karl_K]

By cutting at mine or close to it more money stays in the area vs getting exploited by the likes of De Bears as happened for decades with diamonds.(I get that it is somewhat better now)

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

By cutting at mine or close to it more money stays in the area vs getting exploited by the likes of De Bears as happened for decades with diamonds.(I get that it is somewhat better now)

Most gems get cut or recut in other countries Karl. Even that is a really dumb practice. Holding a $10,000 piece of rough on a wobbly wheel by hand vs proper scanning and planning.