Considering "recut" of OEC to clean up facets

[Aurora26]

Hi all, I am reconsidering "recutting" my OEC, to achieve more chunkier/defined facets, tighten up the table, and overall improve light performance. My priorities are minimal diameter loss and ideal light performance, especially fire. I think it's a pretty fiery stone now but I think with chunkier facets and better angles, it could be even better.

So far I have reached out to Ashley from Southwest Stone Cutters and Jonathan from Distinctive Gem. I have a quote from Ashley with a turnaround time of 1.5 weeks (which is great) and I expect a quote from Jonathan later today. The work is not inexpensive, especially factoring all the shipping charges and if I would like the stone to be regraded by GIA (still TBD on this). I may also reach out to Ari from Single Stone but are his prices even higher?

I would love to hear the experiences of others who have gone through this process of "cleaning up" an OEC or recutting from a MRB, and why you chose the specific person to do the recut?

 

[Rfisher]

Well I just bought a pair of OECs

"Too much" is what I'm aiming for! It is! I sort of remember that the ring with pears & two marquises adds up to about five carats; truth be told, I have no idea if a version with rounds makes sense.

www.pricescope.com

I love the tweak @distracts had done.

Are you thinking of a tweak or total recut?

 

[kgizo]

I chose Ashley from Southwest as he is local. Very pleased with the results

OEC recut

I recently purchased a pair of OECs to have set into a bypass ring. Took them to Southwest Diamond Cutters to get cleaned up as they were very well loved and had girdle chips. Weight loss was minimal: 1.59 to 1.54ct and 1.36 to 1.31ct. One was slightly darker under the table than the other...

www.pricescope.com

 

[Aurora26]

Well I just bought a pair of OECs

"Too much" is what I'm aiming for! It is! I sort of remember that the ring with pears & two marquises adds up to about five carats; truth be told, I have no idea if a version with rounds makes sense.

www.pricescope.com

I love the tweak @distracts had done.

Are you thinking of a tweak or total recut?

Just a tweak to make the crown facets chunkier / tighten up the table at the same time, polish up the pavilion facets as needed. Those were the recommendations suggested by Ashley that I agree with. He mentioned that if I wanted a more "perfect" stone like an AVR, we would have to at least reduce the current non-round 8.67 x 8.9 diameter to 8.67 x 8.67, amongst other changes. That's not something I want to do and "perfect" symmetry or cut is not my priority.

I chose Ashley from Southwest as he is local. Very pleased with the results

OEC recut

I recently purchased a pair of OECs to have set into a bypass ring. Took them to Southwest Diamond Cutters to get cleaned up as they were very well loved and had girdle chips. Weight loss was minimal: 1.59 to 1.54ct and 1.36 to 1.31ct. One was slightly darker under the table than the other...

www.pricescope.com

I saw your thread! Very helpful in helping me decide to reach out to Ashley I'm not local to Texas, not even close, but I'm fine shipping the ring where ever it needs to go.

 

[LightBright]

If I recall correctly, your diamond’s cut is an Antique Cushion. I believe Antique Cushions represent the historical cut stage between a very tall Old Mine Cut and a shallower Old European Cut. The reason the facets appear splintery is that the stone is quite deep. Antique Cushions also have larger tables compared to OMCs and OECs.

Based on everything I’ve seen and had quoted to me personally, I would choose Ashley at Southwest. His recuts are very good. I would love to know where he got his training. I couldn’t care less about timing. You want full attention to a recut. Costs for a Single Stone recut were quoted to me as much higher, and I have not seen their examples (Before and After). I have been surprised at how good Southwest old cuts turn out. Please make sure you review their Before and Afters on Pricescope; there are a couple posts demonstrating their ability.

Jonathan at Distinctive Gem would likely do an excellent, authentic looking cut as well. I would trust his judgment and eye.

One thing I recommend PRIOR to cutting, is get a few alternatives in terms of diameter, percentages and angles from the cutter. Ask them to provide a couple possible combos and post specifications here for advice. Let prosumers here help you decide.

Last, recutting your antique stone will reduce its value. It will destroy the antique cut, which many consumers prize above modern perfection. It will reduce carat weight and it will reduce diameter. A good recut will turn your diamond into a modern “old cut” stone with no preservation of the original hand-done, unique and non mechanical artistry. Antique cuts represent a piece of historical art from a specific time and place.

When I see an excellent modern cut “old cut” they all look the same to me. You do not know what you are going to get visually, at the end. The original look of the inner facets around the culet (represented by the Lower Girdle Facets) are often destroyed and made “all-on” or “all-off”, versus technically perfect pinwheel or flower. Light return and polish will come back awesome. Your modern recut (if done by the three experts you mention above) will be lively, beautiful and interesting.

An interesting thing in some old cut stones will be lost with a modern recut. I don’t know what creates this, but some antique stones have what look like faintly “worn” facet junctions, all over the stone. It’s not from wear, I don’t think, since it’s uniform; you also find it on the Lower girdle facets. What that slight facet junction wear does is create definition: it visually defines the facets. With an antique stone I’ve had repolished, the visual definition of the slightly worn facets is gone (along with the original girdle), and it’s actually much more difficult for me to see the cut pattern now. The cut pattern is also overwhelmed by greatly enhanced light return.

Sorry this is so long. It’s just observations and opinion. Bottom line, it might be less risky buying what you want rather than recutting what you have. The outcome will likely be beautiful, but it will not be imaginable (unless your cutter provides you with a projected ASET) prior to starting. From what you say, I do think you will be pleased with the results as long as you go to a master cutter.

 

[Aurora26]

If I recall correctly, your diamond’s cut is an Antique Cushion. I believe Antique Cushions represent the historical cut stage between a very tall Old Mine Cut and a shallower Old European Cut. The reason the facets appear splintery is that the stone is quite deep. Antique Cushions also have larger tables compared to OMCs and OECs.

Based on everything I’ve seen and had quoted to me personally, I would choose Ashley at Southwest. His recuts are very good. I would love to know where he got his training. I couldn’t care less about timing. You want full attention to a recut. Costs for a Single Stone recut were quoted to me as much higher, and I have not seen their examples (Before and After). I have been surprised at how good Southwest old cuts turn out. Please make sure you review their Before and Afters on Pricescope; there are a couple posts demonstrating their ability.

Jonathan at Distinctive Gem would likely do an excellent, authentic looking cut as well. I would trust his judgment and eye.

One thing I recommend PRIOR to cutting, is get a few alternatives in terms of diameter, percentages and angles from the cutter. Ask them to provide a couple possible combos and post specifications here for advice. Let prosumers here help you decide.

Last, recutting your antique stone will reduce its value. It will destroy the antique cut, which many consumers prize above modern perfection. It will reduce carat weight and it will reduce diameter. A good recut will turn your diamond into a modern “old cut” stone with no preservation of the original hand-done, unique and non mechanical artistry. Antique cuts represent a piece of historical art from a specific time and place.

When I see an excellent modern cut “old cut” they all look the same to me. You do not know what you are going to get visually, at the end. The original look of the inner facets around the culet (represented by the Lower Girdle Facets) are often destroyed and made “all-on” or “all-off”, versus technically perfect pinwheel or flower. Light return and polish will come back awesome. Your modern recut (if done by the three experts you mention above) will be lively, beautiful and interesting.

An interesting thing in some old cut stones will be lost with a modern recut. I don’t know what creates this, but some antique stones have what look like faintly “worn” facet junctions, all over the stone. It’s not from wear, I don’t think, since it’s uniform; you also find it on the Lower girdle facets. What that slight facet junction wear does is create definition: it visually defines the facets. With an antique stone I’ve had repolished, the visual definition of the slightly worn facets is gone (along with the original girdle), and it’s actually much more difficult for me to see the cut pattern now. The cut pattern is also overwhelmed by greatly enhanced light return.

Sorry this is so long. It’s just observations and opinion. Bottom line, it might be less risky buying what you want rather than recutting what you have. The outcome will likely be beautiful, but it will not be imaginable (unless your cutter provides you with a projected ASET) prior to starting. From what you say, I do think you will be pleased with the results as long as you go to a master cutter.

I attached some pics of my stone - I think it’s a late OEC/Transitional stone. I really appreciate this thoughtful response touching on several of areas to consider! It sounds like either Ashley or Jonathan would be a great option (I’m still waiting on Jonathan’s response). I am trying to make it clear to all potential cutters that I would like the facets cleaned up, not a total overhaul into a perfect modern cut OEC. Agreed that would still impact the antique value but personally I don’t plan on selling anytime soon, I just want to be 110% content when I look at it! I have indeed seen some of Ashley’s work on here and the results are great which is why I reached out to him first, and frankly didn’t know Rhino provided recutting services. Ashley was great in that he specifically asked for what I wanted and then after talking through well if I want perfect symmetry that would obviously take down the diameter, we pivoted into a more moderate approach, which is spot on to what I want. I would like to get Jonathan’s initial assessment before making a decision.

The most important thing I am taking away from your note is to ask for and review potential parameter outcomes with PS. Also if possible, to also get a projected ASET. That would definitely put my mind more at ease. This is definitely exciting and I’m also looking forward to sharing the journey with this group!

 

[LightBright]

Hi Aurora26, after looking at the details of your diamond’s cut, I’m wondering if it’s actually been re-cut before (in modern times that potentially removed a chip on the girdle). If you post a photo of the girdle, it would be more obvious when your diamond was last cut.

I think your diamond would benefit from Ashley’s skills. (I also like the fact that he is open to discussing things with you, that’s really nice).

I noticed with my own diamond after repolish that the outer areas “lit up” so the stone looked bigger. See those darker areas around the perimeter of your stone? I think a great cutter can improve light return there. I’m also seeing that the inner part of your diamond, around the culet, is not pinwheel or flower. Ashley will likely be able to give your diamond more definition and symmetry, and edge to edge brightness.

Once he gets the stone, I recommend you discuss a couple options: one minor (with diameter measurements and estimated loss of weight) one more aggressive that improves symmetry (with diameter measurements and estimated loss of weight) because symmetry improves light return. And ask him his opinion, what does he think would look best. My take after seeing detailed photos is that your diamond would light up after a recut. Exciting!

 

[flyingpig]

Now I see more detailed photos that were not available from the previous thread.
It is better than I thought, and I personally would not touch it. But I agree with @LightBright that recutting will "give your diamond more definition and symmetry, and edge to edge brightness" and currently "not pinwheel or flower"

I am just curious what they will do with the shallow pavilion.

 

[Aurora26]

I attached some pics of my stone - I think it’s a late OEC/Transitional stone. I really appreciate this thoughtful response touching on several of areas to consider! It sounds like either Ashley or Jonathan would be a great option (I’m still waiting on Jonathan’s response). I am trying to make it clear to all potential cutters that I would like the facets cleaned up, not a total overhaul into a perfect modern cut OEC. Agreed that would still impact the antique value but personally I don’t plan on selling anytime soon, I just want to be 110% content when I look at it! I have indeed seen some of Ashley’s work on here and the results are great which is why I reached out to him first, and frankly didn’t know Rhino provided recutting services. Ashley was great in that he specifically asked for what I wanted and then after talking through well if I want perfect symmetry that would obviously take down the diameter, we pivoted into a more moderate approach, which is spot on to what I want. I would like to get Jonathan’s initial assessment before making a decision.

The most important thing I am taking away from your note is to ask for and review potential parameter outcomes with PS. Also if possible, to also get a projected ASET. That would definitely put my mind more at ease. This is definitely exciting and I’m also looking forward to sharing the journey with this group!

Now I see more detailed photos that were not available from the previous thread.
It is better than I thought, and I personally would not touch it. But I agree with @LightBright that recutting will "give your diamond more definition and symmetry, and edge to edge brightness" and currently "not pinwheel or flower"

I am just curious what they will do with the shallow pavilion.

Yeah that's exactly what I would like, “more definition” and crispness in a sense. I am still trying to evaluate whether it’s worth putting in nearly a grand to have that potentially done.

@LightBright @flyingpig here are some side views. I do not have a loupe so can't get closer to the girdle. I was actually thinking the pavilion is quite steep but idk. And so if you wouldn't touch it, would you just try to get rid of it and find another? Maybe I can put out feelers in Preloved if someone would be interested to take it but I don't want to lose much on the resale. Appreciate maybe we shouldn't have bought this in the first place but that's a whole other story lol

 

[LightBright]

Hi Aurora26, your stone is likely the original antique cut it always has been. The girdle is razor thin and strictly from the photos you posted, almost definitely untouched in those areas and it follows the natural line of the original crystal. The table and crown also have rustic angles. My antique cushion (which I loved the original look of) looked like that before the repolish. Your diamond is likely 120 plus years old. I like it.

I’m personally very conservative about recutting antique diamonds. Can you post two videos of your diamond? I’d hate to recommend a recut without seeing it in action.

I still think this diamond would benefit from Ashley’s skills but it will lose its original original character. Mine still has the original lines and is MUCH brighter. I still think you should pursue the inquiry and let him review the stone if you want to keep this stone. You could also put out feelers for a resale in PreLoved Section of Pricescope if that’s the direction you want to go.

 

[Aurora26]

Hi Aurora26, your stone is likely the original antique cut it always has been. The girdle is razor thin and strictly from the photos you posted, almost definitely untouched in those areas and it follows the natural line of the original crystal. The table and crown also have rustic angles. My antique cushion looked like that before the repolish . Your diamond is likely 120 plus years old. I like it.

I’m personally very conservative about recutting antique diamonds. Can you post two videos of your diamond? I’d hate to recommend a recut without seeing it in action.

I still think this diamond would benefit from Ashley’s skills but it will lose its original character. Mine still has the original lines and is MUCH brighter. I still think you should pursue the inquiry and let him review the stone if you want to keep this stone. You could also put out feelers for a resale in PreLoved Section of Pricescope if that’s the direction you want to go.

Since personally I am not in love with the character of this stone, I would be okay with a slight recut/change of character. On the other hand, if it is a true antique stone (my seller did not know) and it would bring happiness to someone else, I have indeed posted in the Preloved section to see if there are any takers. I feel comfortable pursuing either option, recut or selling, at no rush for either. Ashley stated the same, we can do the sarine scan, let him do his thing and provide recommendations, and if it's not what I want, I can back out at any time. P.S. @LightBright you are incredibly helpful, thank you!

Please see videos in various lighting. It truly is a pretty stone:

Indoors

Indoors 2

Indoors 3

Kitchen

Outdoors on cloudy day with black phone case

 

[diamondseeker2006]

I have an AVR cut from rough and a recut AVR from a wonky OEC. In your case, since you mostly want some rehab and not a total recut, you may as well use Ashley. I'd use Jonathan for a total recut. I see nothing wrong with enhancing the look of an antique diamond, kind of like a little make-up and hair color do a lot for me! lol!

 

[Aurora26]

I have an AVR cut from rough and a recut AVR from a wonky OEC. In your case, since you mostly want some rehab and not a total recut, you may as well use Ashley. I'd use Jonathan for a total recut. I see nothing wrong with enhancing the look of an antique diamond, kind of like a little make-up and hair color do a lot for me! lol!

Same, plus positive self-improvement is a good thing, no?!

If you don't mind, can you provide some background on the OEC that you cut into AVR? What were the specs of the original stone and what did it end up as? Do you also mind providing the approximate cost? No worries if you don't feel comfortable.

 

[LightBright]

Hi Aurora26, I don’t know how much a recut to AVR is with Jonathan, but that would definitely lead to excellent (stunning) light return. Your stone’s current diameter is fantastic, I’d hope you could keep most of it with any recut. Color looks really white also. In an AVR it would be gorgeous. You have beautiful potential in what you have currently got so I’m happy you are investigating all options.

 

[Aurora26]

Hi Aurora26, I don’t know how much a recut to AVR is with Jonathan, but that would definitely lead to excellent (stunning) light return. Your stones current diameter is fantastic, I’d hope you could keep most of it with any recut. Color looks really white also. In an AVR it would be gorgeous.

FYI the first three videos didn’t come through, can you please repost when you can?

Thank you! I really also hope we can keep as much diameter as possible, and I think that will be the case since the crown isn't terribly shallow.

The YouTube links are appearing for me but attempting to provide the video links again here:

Indoors

Indoors 2

Indoors 3

 

[LightBright]

Thank you! I really also hope we can keep as much diameter as possible, and I think that will be the case since the crown isn't terribly shallow.

The YouTube links are appearing for me but attempting to provide the video links again here:

Indoors

Indoors 2

Indoors 3

Thanks, they also loaded for me in the end. Sorry to inconvenience you!

 

[Aurora26]

Thanks, they also loaded for me in the end. Sorry to inconvenience you!

No problem at all! Feel free to share any new thoughts if any from seeing the stone in video form

 

[NicoleNeedsHelp]

I don’t have any expertise in this area at all— but I did have Ari at SingleStone do a recut for me. I had a 1.24 carat poorly cut MRB and Ari re-cut it into a OEC. There is a thread on it somewhere. I had an excellent experience with Ari. The stone went from a 1.24 to a 1.22. I thought that Ari was very knowledgeable and very honest. I believe the price was $900 to cut the stone and remount it in a ring with some prong work.

 

[Aurora26]

I don’t have any expertise in this area at all— but I did have Ari at SingleStone do a recut for me. I had a 1.24 carat poorly cut MRB and Ari re-cut it into a OEC. There is a thread on it somewhere. I had an excellent experience with Ari. The stone went from a 1.24 to a 1.22. I thought that Ari was very knowledgeable and very honest. I believe the price was $900 to cut the stone and remount it in a ring with some prong work.

This is really helpful, thank you. Did he charge by carat? It looks beautiful, are you happy with it and the light return? It looks to me like most of the "recutting" was done on the pavilion side.

 

[NicoleNeedsHelp]

This is really helpful, thank you. Did he charge by carat? It looks beautiful, are you happy with it and the light return? It looks to me like most of the "recutting" was done on the pavilion side.

I do believe he charged by the carat. The stone is amazing! It was my original engagement diamond— uncertified and given to use by my mother in law when we got engaged. I wore it for 20 years until my upgrade. After I got my upgrade, I had my stone unmounted and sent to GIA because I intended on selling it. GIA report came back and I posted it on PS and people suggested a re-cut. I’m so glad I had it re-cut. After recutting, I did not send back to GIA so I don’t know the exact re-cutting details. I chose SingleStone because I live in LA and was able to meet Ari in person. I tried to link the thread here, but my IPad is fighting me today— you can see the finished stone and the journey if you look under my name and the thread is “what to do with my old diamond- sell or recut”.

 

[foxinsox]

I do believe he charged by the carat. The stone is amazing! It was my original engagement diamond— uncertified and given to use by my mother in law when we got engaged. I wore it for 20 years until my upgrade. After I got my upgrade, I had my stone unmounted and sent to GIA because I intended on selling it. GIA report came back and I posted it on PS and people suggested a re-cut. I’m so glad I had it re-cut. After recutting, I did not send back to GIA so I don’t know the exact re-cutting details. I chose SingleStone because I live in LA and was able to meet Ari in person. I tried to link the thread here, but my IPad is fighting me today— you can see the finished stone and the journey if you look under my name and the thread is “what to do with my old diamond- sell or recut”.

Did you keep or sell it? What does the profile look like? It's very pretty!

 

[Aurora26]

I do believe he charged by the carat. The stone is amazing! It was my original engagement diamond— uncertified and given to use by my mother in law when we got engaged. I wore it for 20 years until my upgrade. After I got my upgrade, I had my stone unmounted and sent to GIA because I intended on selling it. GIA report came back and I posted it on PS and people suggested a re-cut. I’m so glad I had it re-cut. After recutting, I did not send back to GIA so I don’t know the exact re-cutting details. I chose SingleStone because I live in LA and was able to meet Ari in person. I tried to link the thread here, but my IPad is fighting me today— you can see the finished stone and the journey if you look under my name and the thread is “what to do with my old diamond- sell or recut”.

I just skimmed your thread, thank you for the info! I love that you're keeping it for sentimental reason and now it has been improved as well You give me hope for a recut that I will love! I am still thinking about it and trying to find the right timing to do it.

 

[NicoleNeedsHelp]

Did you keep or sell it? What does the profile look like? It's very pretty!

I kept it. I thought I could sell it, but I just couldn’t because it was my original engagement ring. The stone is not that valuable, so it wasn’t a hard decision. I’ll look for some more photos.

 

[kgizo]

I’m happy to share some more pics if it helps. Had a ‘contact me’ link on LT, but looks like LT is down. Is there another way to connect?

 

[Aurora26]

Got some info back from the cutter including a Sarine scan of my stone. Measurements are all over the place lol. We are going to proceed with the first more "moderate" option:

2.50ct+
Crown average 37 degrees
Table +-57%
Pavilion average 42 degrees

+-2.40ct
Crown 36 degrees
Table +-55%
Pavilion 41.5 degrees

Any feedback? I am most comfortable with keeping the stone above 2.5ct, so those crown and pavilion angles are the compromise.

 

[Yimmers]

Is there any explanation of the differences you'd see between the two from the cutter?

 

[xxxxxx]

So excited to see what will happen. I'm sorry I never got around to posting my diamonds specs etc.. My diamond is a totally different flavour and not really helpful. But attached the end results sarin. The recut was documented here: https://www.pricescope.com/communit...ination-would-you-prefer.261107/#post-4846987

Does your cutter have an opinion on which combo he likes more? I would also tag Karl K for his advice. He gave me advice on my recut.

 

[Aurora26]

Is there any explanation of the differences you'd see between the two from the cutter?

The 2.4ct stone would be bring the stone to very "ideal" standards, optimal symmetry especially, compared to the 2.5ct+. But even sticking with my guns to keep the stone above 2.5ct (and average 8.75mm), there would still be a noticeable difference in light performance and improved symmetry. The cutter honestly let me know that I shouldn't spend money if I wanted to keep it at 2.6ct+; there would not be a worthwhile difference. I think I'm willing to compromise in that way, but interested to hear other people's opinions.

 

[Aurora26]

So excited to see what will happen. I'm sorry I never got around to posting my diamonds specs etc.. My diamond is a totally different flavour and not really helpful. But attached the end results sarin. The recut was documented here: https://www.pricescope.com/communit...ination-would-you-prefer.261107/#post-4846987

Does your cutter have an opinion on which combo he likes more? I would also tag Karl K for his advice. He gave me advice on my recut.

Ah hi again @Lessics!
Now that you have had your stone for a few months, how are you liking it? Your measurements are helpful in that you ended up with a 37 deg crown, which is what mine would end up as, and previously I was worried this would still be too steep.

@Karl_K, any thoughts on this recut? My 2.72ct stone's specs are posted a couple posts above here. Thank you in advance.

 

[prs]

Got some info back from the cutter including a Sarine scan of my stone. Measurements are all over the place lol. We are going to proceed with the first more "moderate" option:

2.50ct+
Crown average 37 degrees
Table +-57%
Pavilion average 42 degrees

+-2.40ct
Crown 36 degrees
Table +-55%
Pavilion 41.5 degrees

Any feedback? I am most comfortable with keeping the stone above 2.5ct, so those crown and pavilion angles are the compromise.

Almost all diamond prices are based on the Rappaport Diamond Pricing Guide. There are numerous changes in price/carat at various carat weights. However IIRC there is no break at 2.50ct. All 2.00-2.99ct diamonds have the same $/ct price varying only by color and clarity. For your stone, given you have lots of room above 2.00ct, I think I might be more concerned about maximizing face up size, and getting a fabulous looking diamond rather than staying above 2.50ct.

Of course you would want to keep weight loss to an absolute minimum, but if getting the diamond of your dreams means going below 2.50ct then I think you might want to keep that option in your thoughts.

Lots and lots to think about here! To begin with here's a copy of the 2008 AGS Cut grade proportion chart. I've added some of the cut proportions I know for sure make fabulous OECs. The CER square shows the proportions Victor Canera uses for all his Canera European Rounds. The AVR square shows the proportions of @diamondseeker2006's gorgeous August Vintage Round. The PRS square shows my DWs averaged proportions, and the Aur square shows your current averaged proportions. You can see there's lots of opportunity to improve the cut of your diamond!!!