Crash Course in Sapphires?

[JennyN]

I was hoping someone could point me to a tutorial/help site on sapphires. I''m looking for a round sapphire, approximately 1 carat to mount in an antique setting that belonged to my grandmother. I just recently removed the OEC diamond from it as part of my engagement ring "upgrade" project. The setting wasn''t exactly what I wanted for everyday wear, but now I''m hoping to set a sapphire in it & wear it occasionally as a right-hand ring.

I know nothing about the various shades of blue, other than the dark blue so often seen in the mall is lower quality. Are most sapphires heat-treated or is that sort of like "clarity enhanced" for diamonds? What is the price range for such sapphires? Any general pointers or suggestions in my search?

Thanks in advance for any help or suggestions.

 

[bar01]

Oh boy - You sound exactly like me - so where to start? I have been looking for a 1.5ct to 2ct round Sapphire my self. I have been doing a ton of research over the last 6-8 weeks. When I finally get my Sapphire I am going to write a very long post on what I have learned. Let me share what I have found so far.

What is good color? Well some will tell you it is what ever you like - and that is true. You may like lighter or darker blue Sapphires. It is true that at most mall stores carry dark inky sapphires. One major organization has made a statement on what they think are the prefered or most valued colors -

GIA Prefered Colors

And here

GIA color discussion

Also look at this web site - Awesomegems


Now some "experts" will tell you that the GIA system is not accepted as a standard - which is true. There are also other organizations like AGL. But for consumers like me and you - GIA gives us something to base a search on. Pay attention to terms like tone,hue and saturation. You also want to consider clarity ratings (Like VS) which GIA also provides a categories.

Finally don't forget cut. The experts feel that the depth of the Sapphire should be in the 60-80 percent range of the diameter (with 60-65 being ideal). Also be aware that round cut sapphires are more expensive than oval cut sapphires and are harder to find. Oh - and another thing about cut. A 1 ct diamond is not the same face up size as a 1ct sapphire. The general rule of thumb is a 1 to 1.4 ratio. So If you want to find a Sapphire equal in size to a 1ct diamond - start looking for a 1.4 ct Sapphire.

Your best bet is to go to a high end store like Tiffany's to see what fine quality sapphires look like.

Okay - Cost. This is a tough one! Nobody would tell me what to expect. It is not like diamonds. So I had to do my own research. First you should know that origin of the sapphire will affect the price. Basically there is Kasmir (Mercedes of Sapphires), Burma(Lexus of Sapphires), Ceylon/Sri Lanka (Cadilac of Sapphires) , and then everywhere else. For the sake of argument lets say you are looking at Ceylon sapphire which is a nice "bang for the buck" choice. For the size you are talking about my guess is 600-1200 per ct for a very good to excellent treated stone. Why such a big range - well it depends on color and clarity. You can look at the awesomegems site or go to simplysapphires.com to look at prices. Also you can find some information here:

Prices 1

There is also a "secret" book (i.e. consumers are not supposed to see it) that is used in the trade called "The Guide" for sapphire prices. It is published out of Northbrook, IL. Here is something I found on the public domain -----

"According to The Guide, prices for sapphire are "based on the assumption of heat treatment." For fine-quality sapphires of 2-ct. to under 3-ct. sizes, prices for heat-treated blue sapphire range from $550/ct. to $1,700/ct. Extra-fine quality stones are priced at $1,700/ct. to $3,000/ct."

Okay - next issue - Treatment vs non treatment. This is a "hot" topic - LOL! Understand this - 95% or more of Sapphires are treated by some method (heat, diffusion,etc..). It is common practice and enhances the color and quality of the Sapphire. Now some stones come out of the ground looking nice enough not to require treatment. These are very rare. They do not "look better" - and infact may have slightly more inclusions to prove that they were not treated. You will pay a hefty premimum for it. Expect around 40-50% more than treated stones. So for your 1ct sapphire expect 1000-2500 per ct depending on color and clarity.

A well known site for untreated Sapphires is

Here

Lastly - there are some good books on rubies and sapphires at Amazon.com.

Good luck on your search - my fellow Sapphire hunter.


P.S. - is this maybe what you were looking for?

1.19 ct Round Sapphire

 

[yowahking]

Wow, bar, are you sure you are not in the industry, you have learned much grasshopper. You have to be at least 30 to get that one. Since both of you are looking for sapphires, here are a couple other tips. Country of origin is often overrated, and sometimes not really from that country. There are Montana sapphires which are treated with heat, there are Yogo sapphires which are all natural and also from Montana, and there are stones sold in Montana from other countries that are sold to locals as Montana stones, I know because I used to sell up there to stores, my stones were not Montana and next trip would be in the Montana case. Same goes for other stones, unless you have an AGTA cert or for an expensive stone, CAP BEASLEY is your man, it is hard to determine origin. Ceylon/Sri Lanka just means from there, does not mean good or bad, or any specific color. I have every shade of blue, yellow, green, purple, etc. from Sri Lanka. Some nice, some not. If you are only looking for Blue, Madagascar it sort of at the end of the run of the last few years of a nice find, but much of it was sold as Ceylon. Who cares which Island it comes from, when it was formed, thye continents were very close to each other, and Sri Lanka was very near Madagascar, just took a few hundred years between the discoveries. I saw KB GEMS listed on this site, they should direct you to a store in your area that uses stones from them, I don't think they sell direct. You will find that it is not like shopping diamonds. There are not price lists, no fire scopes, and most of the people selling them don't know that much about them either. Get in writing whether it is treated or not, at least you have the return option if you buy untreated and it is either heat or diffusion treated. You can find a 1ct nice blue for anywhere from $350 to $3500 but most select around the $700-1200 range. If you go get a box of crayons, seriously, the cheap box of 8, the blue one is a good color to start looking for your sapphire. Too light or too dark is easy to compare to your crayon. Sounds crazy, but I have sent many customers to countries armed with a crayon, and they came back happy. Mogok speaks of Palin which have pretty blue hues but not many of them around these parts. Where are you located, I may know a good place near you?

 

[valeria101]

The crayon story finally provided a good laugh

Common sense is the rarest of shopping advices and the best of all. This is it!

 

[denverappraiser]

I love Sapphire's but the whole business can get pretty complicated. There are a lot of things that come into play and can end up making a huge difference in both the beauty of the stone and the price.

Here are some interesting educational comments on sapphires.

Here's another one that you may find helpful and is a personal favorite.

Pala Gems has some good material as well.

I'm not all that convinced that the 'secret' guide is going to do you much good but it can make for interesting reading. It's a little one the expensive side for most consumers. Here's an explaination of who they are and what they have to offer. The author is Richard Drucker and he writes lots of material that is available through other sources that may be more applicable.

Neil Beaty, GG ISA
Independent Appraisals in Denver

 

[JennyN]

WOW! Thanks everyone! You guys definitely gave me some resources to check out.

Looks like I'll be spending a few days checking out all this information, then possibly visit some stores to look at stones. The plan is to get the stone & have it mounted as my Xmas gift this year, so I'm in no particular hurry as of yet.

bar01: I find it interesting that I thought I would need a 1 carat sapphire, but really need about a 1.4. I love the one you linked. I tend to prefer the lighter, slightly periwinkle blue, but I wasn't sure if those were lower quality or not.

yowahking: I'm located in Chattanooga, TN. It's a decent-sized small city, but the best thing is that we're an hour and a half from both Atlanta & Nashville, so I can easily take a short trip if I need to. If you have any suggestions there, I'd be glad to hear about them.

Thanks again for all the info! When I decide on some candidates, I'll post them here for your input.

 

[strmrdr]

no crash course would be complete without mentioning synthetics.

You can get a custom cut synthetic for $100-$150 that will look as good as the best naturals and take a 30 power microscope to tell apart from the real thing.
PM me for a recomendation if your interested.
Some poeple get a little unhappy when we discuss synthetics but it has to be mentioned.

 

[yowahking]

While synthetics are an option, the color that you seem to be heading to has a slight tint of purple and usually the synthetics do not go that direction. If you want to be in the price range of the synthetics and still have natural material, the new treatments are pretty amazing. Only about 1% of jewelers and 5% of appraisers will be able to tell they have been treated and most have not actually seen the material yet. I have seen it but do not feel "expert" enough so I will be leaning much more in Bangkok in a few weeks. One of the experts in this field is Arthur Skuratowitz ( may have butchered his last name, but he is in CO Springs and knows treatments as well as anyone I know. I will make some calls to see who is in your area that has stones at the "real" price. Many who are in the know, charge for it, since most jewelers don't know much more than you do about sapphires, the good ones can often justify higher prices. While someone mentioned Tiffany, better to stick with the sterling necklace that is their signature item, you will do better other places. You may also consider color change sapphire. They can be many different colors, but the ones that may interest you are purple (or violet) in incandescent light, and Blue (or lighter blue) in flourescent light or sunlight. Lighter tone stones will be equally light in each color or darker tones equally dark. These are more collectable but not always more expensive. Some dealers see them as an oddball of the group of his stones, and if his clients are more traditional, he may sell the oddball fairly cheap. If it is a jeweler or internet site that specializes in rare gems, you may pay 20% extra for the color changers. Lighter tones may go from $250-500 pct deeper tones from $500-1500pct depending on how nice the stone is, how cheap the person got it from their supplier, and how greedy the seller is. It is way more complicated than diamonds. Most "good" internet dealers and most "good" jewelers are buying diamonds at the same price. Within 5% overall. No one is buying 30% cheaper than anyone else. In sapphires, one guy can pick up a stone somewhere at a show, in another country, and for some reason, (legal I am talking) it will sell 50% less than most are selling it for. You have to be both smart enough to make sure that it is not treated in a way that you are not noticing, or smooth enough to now show the drool on your face as you pretend that you might take it (and as many more as he has) If I knew how to morgage my house from Thailand I would be in big trouble. The tutorials that you have been given will give you great help. Guide is not so hot for sapphires. Mr. Atlas who is on this site, I think is a contributor to guide for European cut diamonds. But sapphires are not a strength. More for general pricing, and sapphires are too complicated for general terms. Last tip is finding a great deal on a sapphire that you can have recut to make it really pop. About 70% of round sapphires will not be cut for maximum "wow", they are cut for mamimum $$$. By leaving extra weight on, they are sold by ct, and most buyers, (jewelers and consumers) accept these cuts. Every year, cutters are changing to the cutting demands of a few contries, but it is a slow change. Color still drives sapphires more than cutting.

 

[strmrdr]

btw if you like light blue have you considered zircon?

http://www.ajsgems.com/ZBL/ZBL-00427.htm

Iv seen some pretty awesome looking ones.
imho they leave the lighter blue sapphires in the dust looks wise.
Sapphire takes off in the mid to slightly dark range to my eyes.

 

[elmo]

----------------
On 8/22/2004 9:07:01 AM denverappraiser wrote:

I'm not all that convinced that the 'secret' guide is going to do you much good but it can make for interesting reading.
----------------

Once you've decided on quality and size it can put you in the ballpark in terms of price better than a majority of local folks, who probably don't sell a single six carat unheated extra-fine sapphire in a year, or three carat fine Burma ruby for that matter. Val, I have to call in a favor when I'm shopping for something to get access to The Guide...if you have a source, please let me know

.

 

[mogok]

Hello JennyN,

What can I tell you about sapphire after all that was already said?

The first questions that you should ask yourself is: What do you want to do with it? Under which light will the stone be used? What is the most important for you: color or scitilliation?

These questions are important as the color of the stone is the result of the stone interaction with light. If you use your stone by day under a sunny sky a slightly dark blue sapphire (Old style) would fit, now if you want to use your stone inside with fluorescent light a lighter stone that play well with the light could be the choice to go for...
There is no special rule, you just have to think a little bit and then go for the type of stone that combine th best what you want.

Now about heat treatment or no heat treatment, this is something very personal. In both case the stone will be very durable and beautiful. One was like that naturally and the other one with man help. The result from this is that the second kind is cheaper and more easy to find. Assume generally that if its not specified: All rubies and sapphire in the consumer markets were heated.

All the best,

 

[JennyN]

I spent some time this evening looking thru all the information so generously provided by everyone.

The awesomegems website provided lots of photos & helped me narrow down the color that I preferred. What I'd like is a stone with a violet-blue color, often called a cornflower blue. The codes (GIA codes?) assigned were vB5/4 and vB4/4 (medium tone, moderately strong saturation).

If the awesomegems website is any indication of prices for untreated stones, I think I'll be looking for a treated stone. I would like a good quality stone, but not necessarily top quality - - maybe Ceylon/Sri Lanka, based on bar01's description as the Cadillac of sapphires (as opposed to Mercedes or Lexus

). As pointed out earlier, the selection of round stones was not very good. Oh, if I were only looking for an oval stone!

strmrdr: I looked at the site you referenced for zircons. They are gorgous stones, but had more of a greenish tint than I would like. But thanks for the suggestion.

 

[bar01]

Hey JennyN,

Let me remind you - and everyone here on PS - I am just a consumer like you. I have only been researching Sapphires for the past 6-8 weeks. My knowledge is limited and my opinoins are just my own. Sapphires and other colored stones are a tricky business compared to diamond purchases.

I like your choice on the GIA grades. I like the slightly violet blue (as opposed to pure blue) myself. I also prefer a tone on the medium (5) to medium-light (5/4) scale as opposed to the darker 5/6 that is sometimes more highly valued. The saturation level you mention (4) is a minimum level for me. I don't want to see alot of gray.

The awesomegems web site is very nice in categorizing its stones by GIA system. However, as I mentioned - the GIA system is not accepted as "the standard" and many experts dismiss it. If you go to another web site - or a local jeweler and try to say, "I want a vb5/4 VS stone" you may get blank stares or an argument over the worth of the GIA grading system. Just try to understand what these mean (to your eye) so you can try to pick out a stone you like.

Also be aware that you can send the stone to an independent GIA Graduate Gemologist appraiser and ask that he/she perform a formal analysis and appraisal. Richard Sherwood on this board can do this for you -as can other qualified appraisers. Again - you have to like the stone - but if you are going to spend alot for a nice sapphire - paying for a formal GIA style report may just help you feel better about your purchase (sleep better at night) - and you should get a formal appraisal for insurance anyway.

Back to the origin thing. This is a very debatable topic. So people in the trade feel the origin is not that important - and hard to prove anyway. It is true you can get a bad looking stone from Burma and a nice stone from Australia. I was only quoting from one of the Sapphire books when I gave the "Mercedes/Lexus/Cadillac" comparison. AGTA and AGL will provide their opinion of the origin - for a nice price.

I only bring up origin - not because one source is "better" than another - but only to be used as a guide for what you should pay for your Sapphire. Now the person selling you the stone may say its from Ceylon or Burma -or Montana - but that is no certainty. But you should at least trust the person you are doing business with is trying to give you the most credible information he has. He should know whom he buys his stones from and their sources. Again having a good idea on origin is a factor (one of many) in helping you decide how much to pay for that great looking little Sapphire you find.

Let us know how the search goes !

 

[yowahking]

bar01,
Hope I did not give you the impression that origin was meaninless to me. Only that I have studied sapphires for 20 years, and still learn every year. I see too many people that either shop for Burma ruby on TV or come in because they are told to ask for Ceylon sapphire as if the country dictates what it looks like. When I show them a rainbow sapphire bracelet with 63 stones in all shades of colors and tell them that 2/3 of them are ceylon, they look at me like I don't know sapphires. I keep fish tank grade Burma rubies in stock to show what you can get if you focus on location instead of color. There are jokes back and forth between some states as to who has good looking girls and who has ugly ones, same thing. I would just look for the best looking sapphire that I could afford and also ask for origin as a side note. In a big stone it is more of a factor as collectable enters the picture.

 

[bar01]

Hey Scott,

Maybe my use of words was a little harsh - I have edited my post. You do this for a living! I am just an consumer! Thats why I like PS - we get to hear from people like you.

I agree with you that origin does not mean that one stone will be better than a stone from another origin. I was just trying to say that origin does have an influence in the price you pay. It is up to individual tastes - if you want to pay for a particular origin.