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DC movie tilting angles

diagem

Ideal_Rock
Trade
Joined
Oct 21, 2004
Messages
5,096
I have noticed DC default tilting for movies are 5 deg on the X and 3 deg on the Y.

Is there a specific reason the default is those No's?
IRL, tilts are much steeper? Wouldnt we want to them steeper in the movies as well?

Just wondering as I am playing with the toy :wacko: .
 
Hi Yoram,
We have discussed 15 degrees away, 5 towards and 3-5 dgrees rocking side to side.
What do you think?

(But you know you can set any symmetrical variant you choose?)
 
Garry H (Cut Nut) said:
Hi Yoram,
We have discussed 15 degrees away, 5 towards and 3-5 dgrees rocking side to side.
What do you think?

(But you know you can set any symmetrical variant you choose?)

I know I can choose Garry..., So the more it rocks the more it reveals on the LP of the cut?
 
DiaGem said:
Garry H (Cut Nut) said:
Hi Yoram,
We have discussed 15 degrees away, 5 towards and 3-5 dgrees rocking side to side.
What do you think?

(But you know you can set any symmetrical variant you choose?)

I know I can choose Garry..., So the more it rocks the more it reveals on the LP of the cut?

LP????
 
Garry H (Cut Nut) said:
DiaGem said:
Garry H (Cut Nut) said:
Hi Yoram,
We have discussed 15 degrees away, 5 towards and 3-5 dgrees rocking side to side.
What do you think?

(But you know you can set any symmetrical variant you choose?)

I know I can choose Garry..., So the more it rocks the more it reveals on the LP of the cut?

LP????

You serious? Light Performance :wacko:
 
DiaGem said:
Garry H (Cut Nut) said:
DiaGem said:
Garry H (Cut Nut) said:
Hi Yoram,
We have discussed 15 degrees away, 5 towards and 3-5 dgrees rocking side to side.
What do you think?

(But you know you can set any symmetrical variant you choose?)

I know I can choose Garry..., So the more it rocks the more it reveals on the LP of the cut?

LP????

You serious? Light Performance :wacko:

D'oh!

Really it depends on how you assess LP DG?
 
Garry H (Cut Nut) said:
DiaGem said:
Garry H (Cut Nut) said:
DiaGem said:
Garry H (Cut Nut) said:
Hi Yoram,
We have discussed 15 degrees away, 5 towards and 3-5 dgrees rocking side to side.
What do you think?

(But you know you can set any symmetrical variant you choose?)

I know I can choose Garry..., So the more it rocks the more it reveals on the LP of the cut?

LP????

You serious? Light Performance :wacko:

D'oh!

Really it depends on how you assess LP DG?


Translating Aset video...

Some slight tilt show a part while steeper tilts show a different picture!
All Diamonds show leakage in tilts, where is the relevant degree tilt?
 
DiaGem said:
Garry H (Cut Nut) said:
DiaGem said:
Translating Aset video...

Some slight tilt show a part while steeper tilts show a different picture!
All Diamonds show leakage in tilts, where is the relevant degree tilt?

It depends on the cut, some get betterer and betterer - eg tilt an emerald cut away on its long axis. Where as some cushions die at around 15 degrees tilt and show more than a 1/3rd of the stone as a window. But you knew that :read:
 
Diagem,

In Diamcalc I prefer swinging rather than a figure 8. I have never seen a Diamantaire or consumer adjust in two directions at once.
But the angles and pattern of tilting is all configurable any way you like for video output.

AGS says a snapshot at 15 in each direction or a total of 30 degrees, along with the faceup is sufficient. With the faceup receiving a greater weighting. That is also the way that Diamcalc calculates its brightness and contrast measurements with these tilt positions.

Though diamond with a CA of 24.5 and pavilion mains at ~40 degrees leaves about 15.5 degrees before one side's angles move below the CA and show widespread leakage under the table. One can combat this with a smaller table but I agree with AGS about setting a practical limit around 15 degrees for brilliant cuts. Some of their metrics use the worst result as the final score, while others being the addition of all positions.

If one wanted to be as precise as possible all tilt positions in half degree incremements up to 15 could be considered. With some metrics using the worst result as the final score, while others being the addition of all positions. I think this would require higher computing resources and isn't going to yield a more accurate overall assessment. To avoid this resource problem AGSL considers these 3 positions in both ASET30 and ASET40 and makes the process more "organic" and qualititative in this respect, when considering a new design especially one where the intermiediary tilt ranges(ie 5, 10 degrees) may be important differentiators.

Do you agree with this logic, if not what do you prefer?
 
ChunkyCushionLover said:
Diagem,

In Diamcalc I prefer swinging rather than a figure 8. I have never seen a Diamantaire or consumer adjust in two directions at once.
But the angles and pattern of tilting is all configurable any way you like for video output.

AGS says a snapshot at 15 in each direction or a total of 30 degrees, along with the faceup is sufficient. With the faceup receiving a greater weighting. That is also the way that Diamcalc calculates its brightness and contrast measurements with these tilt positions.

Though diamond with a CA of 24.5 and pavilion mains at ~40 degrees leaves about 15.5 degrees before one side's angles move below the CA and show widespread leakage under the table. One can combat this with a smaller table but I agree with AGS about setting a practical limit around 15 degrees for brilliant cuts. Some of their metrics use the worst result as the final score, while others being the addition of all positions.

If one wanted to be as precise as possible all tilt positions in half degree incremements up to 15 could be considered. With some metrics using the worst result as the final score, while others being the addition of all positions. I think this would require higher computing resources and isn't going to yield a more accurate overall assessment. To avoid this resource problem AGSL considers these 3 positions in both ASET30 and ASET40 and makes the process more "organic" and qualititative in this respect, when considering a new design especially one where the intermiediary tilt ranges(ie 5, 10 degrees) may be important differentiators.

Do you agree with this logic, if not what do you prefer?
Do I agree with this logic? If someone is measuring a specific scientific measurement I believe AGS have the right answers for why.
That is actualy what I wanted to find out, thanks.

The reason is I noticed DC default was at 3 & 5 degrees and simply thought it was at a minimum.
 
DiaGem said:
ChunkyCushionLover said:
Diagem,

In Diamcalc I prefer swinging rather than a figure 8. I have never seen a Diamantaire or consumer adjust in two directions at once.
But the angles and pattern of tilting is all configurable any way you like for video output.

AGS says a snapshot at 15 in each direction or a total of 30 degrees, along with the faceup is sufficient. With the faceup receiving a greater weighting. That is also the way that Diamcalc calculates its brightness and contrast measurements with these tilt positions.

Though diamond with a CA of 24.5 and pavilion mains at ~40 degrees leaves about 15.5 degrees before one side's angles move below the CA and show widespread leakage under the table. One can combat this with a smaller table but I agree with AGS about setting a practical limit around 15 degrees for brilliant cuts. Some of their metrics use the worst result as the final score, while others being the addition of all positions.

If one wanted to be as precise as possible all tilt positions in half degree incremements up to 15 could be considered. With some metrics using the worst result as the final score, while others being the addition of all positions. I think this would require higher computing resources and isn't going to yield a more accurate overall assessment. To avoid this resource problem AGSL considers these 3 positions in both ASET30 and ASET40 and makes the process more "organic" and qualititative in this respect, when considering a new design especially one where the intermiediary tilt ranges(ie 5, 10 degrees) may be important differentiators.

Do you agree with this logic, if not what do you prefer?
Do I agree with this logic? If someone is measuring a specific scientific measurement I believe AGS have the right answers for why.
That is actualy what I wanted to find out, thanks.

The reason is I noticed DC default was at 3 & 5 degrees and simply thought it was at a minimum.

AGSL apply a waiting (I do not know what it is, but guess it is a cosine wt) - i.e. face up counts more than tilted.
But I can not imagine why they use ASET40. Peter has explained why, some wierd idea that a tolkowsky holds its ASET performance up till then. So???? It is the equivalent of looking at the stone from 6 inches or so. Another problem for AGSL is stone orientation - how do they assess a stone with different LxW?

Regarding rocking - in my experiance at a sales desk - most people hold a ring or a diamond in a box or stone holder and rock it to and away from them, about 5 towards and 15 degrees away.
 
Garry H (Cut Nut) said:
Regarding rocking - in my experiance at a sales desk - most people hold a ring or a diamond in a box or stone holder and rock it to and away from them, about 5 towards and 15 degrees away.

You mean 20 degrees in total?
 
DiaGem said:
Garry H (Cut Nut) said:
Regarding rocking - in my experiance at a sales desk - most people hold a ring or a diamond in a box or stone holder and rock it to and away from them, about 5 towards and 15 degrees away.

You mean 20 degrees in total?
oui!
 
Garry H (Cut Nut) said:
DiaGem said:
Garry H (Cut Nut) said:
Regarding rocking - in my experiance at a sales desk - most people hold a ring or a diamond in a box or stone holder and rock it to and away from them, about 5 towards and 15 degrees away.

You mean 20 degrees in total?
oui!

Merci :)
Can you program 5 toward / 15 away on DC?
 
DiaGem said:
Garry H (Cut Nut) said:
DiaGem said:
Garry H (Cut Nut) said:
Regarding rocking - in my experiance at a sales desk - most people hold a ring or a diamond in a box or stone holder and rock it to and away from them, about 5 towards and 15 degrees away.

You mean 20 degrees in total?
oui!

Merci :)
Can you program 5 toward / 15 away on DC?

Nup, not yet anyway.
But if we build that into the LBox then it will be done in DiamCalc too =) =)
 
Garry H (Cut Nut) said:
DiaGem said:
Garry H (Cut Nut) said:
DiaGem said:
Garry H (Cut Nut) said:
Regarding rocking - in my experiance at a sales desk - most people hold a ring or a diamond in a box or stone holder and rock it to and away from them, about 5 towards and 15 degrees away.

You mean 20 degrees in total?
oui!

Merci :)
Can you program 5 toward / 15 away on DC?

Nup, not yet anyway.
But if we build that into the LBox then it will be done in DiamCalc too =) =)

If?? :errrr: :devil:
 
Diagem,

One could generate 15 towards and then 15 away and remove the extra tilt frames with a video editor.

CCL
 
I would like to see a dance.
The first 5 degrees are always going to be the most important. so:
dance 5 right-5left-5front-5rear-5side-side-side-side-10R10L10F!0R10S10S10S10S
Then repeat 2x and finish off with a short session 25L/25R/25S/25s/25S/25s
Then change lighting to direct from diffused and repeat.

I would like to see that one click creatable for up to 4 dmc files.
 
Karl_K said:
I would like to see a dance.
The first 5 degrees are always going to be the most important. so:
dance 5 right-5left-5front-5rear-5side-side-side-side-10R10L10F!0R10S10S10S10S
Then repeat 2x and finish off with a short session 25L/25R/25S/25s/25S/25s
Then change lighting to direct from diffused and repeat.

I would like to see that one click creatable for up to 4 dmc files.

I think you should be resting my friend - not dancing nor posting!
Not a bad idea though :appl:

Welcome back Karl, hope you feel good.
 
Karl_K said:
I would like to see a dance.
The first 5 degrees are always going to be the most important. so:
dance 5 right-5left-5front-5rear-5side-side-side-side-10R10L10F!0R10S10S10S10S
Then repeat 2x and finish off with a short session 25L/25R/25S/25s/25S/25s
Then change lighting to direct from diffused and repeat.

I would like to see that one click creatable for up to 4 dmc files.

What type of drugs are you on :wacko:
Good to hear you are back up and breathing =)

Good luck with Sergey..., I would love to see him incorporate your dance on DC and some.... :naughty:
I guess it actually depends on Garry and his Box:)

CCL, I am still trying to conquer 'cut editor'.
 
DiaGem said:
Karl_K said:
I would like to see a dance.
The first 5 degrees are always going to be the most important. so:
dance 5 right-5left-5front-5rear-5side-side-side-side-10R10L10F!0R10S10S10S10S
Then repeat 2x and finish off with a short session 25L/25R/25S/25s/25S/25s
Then change lighting to direct from diffused and repeat.

I would like to see that one click creatable for up to 4 dmc files.

What type of drugs are you on :wacko:
Good to hear you are back up and breathing =)

Good luck with Sergey..., I would love to see him incorporate your dance on DC and some.... :naughty:
I guess it actually depends on Garry and his Box:)

CCL, I am still trying to conquer 'cut editor'.

You and me both. I am stuck creating designs in Gemcad using meetpoint and centre angle method and then importing into DC for measuring light performance. Not an efficient or easy to optimize method.

I need to see the indexes on the facets(don't know how in DC) to know where I am, and have had a hell of a time straightening the girdle in DC. :angryfire: You as a cutter hopefully are having an easier time. ;)
 
ChunkyCushionLover said:
You and me both. I am stuck creating designs in Gemcad using meetpoint and centre angle method and then importing into DC for measuring light performance. Not an efficient or easy to optimize method.


I need to see the indexes on the facets(don't know how in DC) to know where I am, and have had a hell of a time straightening the girdle in DC. :angryfire: You as a cutter hopefully are having an easier time. ;)

CCL..., cutting virtual Diamonds is nowhere near working on the material itself..., DC has a few limitations that actual cutting doesnt and vice versa :))
 
DiaGem said:
ChunkyCushionLover said:
You and me both. I am stuck creating designs in Gemcad using meetpoint and centre angle method and then importing into DC for measuring light performance. Not an efficient or easy to optimize method.


I need to see the indexes on the facets(don't know how in DC) to know where I am, and have had a hell of a time straightening the girdle in DC. :angryfire: You as a cutter hopefully are having an easier time. ;)

CCL..., cutting virtual Diamonds is nowhere near working on the material itself..., DC has a few limitations that actual cutting doesnt and vice versa :))

Care to elaborate on the limitations and provide a few details?
 
ChunkyCushionLover said:
DiaGem said:
ChunkyCushionLover said:
You and me both. I am stuck creating designs in Gemcad using meetpoint and centre angle method and then importing into DC for measuring light performance. Not an efficient or easy to optimize method.


I need to see the indexes on the facets(don't know how in DC) to know where I am, and have had a hell of a time straightening the girdle in DC. :angryfire: You as a cutter hopefully are having an easier time. ;)

CCL..., cutting virtual Diamonds is nowhere near working on the material itself..., DC has a few limitations that actual cutting doesnt and vice versa :))

Care to elaborate on the limitations and provide a few details?

When cutting a one of design adding an extra facet or 2 is easy to cut yourself out of a corner.
It can be impossible to lay that facet in place in DC to do the same.
DC also has problems with radius corners.
 
ChunkyCushionLover said:
DiaGem said:
ChunkyCushionLover said:
You and me both. I am stuck creating designs in Gemcad using meetpoint and centre angle method and then importing into DC for measuring light performance. Not an efficient or easy to optimize method.


I need to see the indexes on the facets(don't know how in DC) to know where I am, and have had a hell of a time straightening the girdle in DC. :angryfire: You as a cutter hopefully are having an easier time. ;)

CCL..., cutting virtual Diamonds is nowhere near working on the material itself..., DC has a few limitations that actual cutting doesnt and vice versa :))

Care to elaborate on the limitations and provide a few details?
Try making a C3 shallower on an existing & complete step-cut model.
You'll understand right away.
 
DiaGem said:
ChunkyCushionLover said:
DiaGem said:
ChunkyCushionLover said:
You and me both. I am stuck creating designs in Gemcad using meetpoint and centre angle method and then importing into DC for measuring light performance. Not an efficient or easy to optimize method.


I need to see the indexes on the facets(don't know how in DC) to know where I am, and have had a hell of a time straightening the girdle in DC. :angryfire: You as a cutter hopefully are having an easier time. ;)

CCL..., cutting virtual Diamonds is nowhere near working on the material itself..., DC has a few limitations that actual cutting doesnt and vice versa :))

Care to elaborate on the limitations and provide a few details?
Try making a C3 shallower on an existing & complete step-cut model.
You'll understand right away.

Oh I know what the limitations of DC are I'm struggling with them myself. I've resigned myself to rebuilding all tiers from scratch instead of trying to modify an existing cut diamond or model, in order to have control over optimization.

If I knew the Cut Designer better and freeform as opposed to centre angle method of cutting it would be a lot easier I am hoping.
Perhaps even the order of cutting would be different in real life faceting.
Do you have many designs where you cut the table facet last?
 
ChunkyCushionLover said:
DiaGem said:
ChunkyCushionLover said:
DiaGem said:
ChunkyCushionLover said:
You and me both. I am stuck creating designs in Gemcad using meetpoint and centre angle method and then importing into DC for measuring light performance. Not an efficient or easy to optimize method.


I need to see the indexes on the facets(don't know how in DC) to know where I am, and have had a hell of a time straightening the girdle in DC. :angryfire: You as a cutter hopefully are having an easier time. ;)

CCL..., cutting virtual Diamonds is nowhere near working on the material itself..., DC has a few limitations that actual cutting doesnt and vice versa :))

Care to elaborate on the limitations and provide a few details?
Try making a C3 shallower on an existing & complete step-cut model.
You'll understand right away.

Oh I know what the limitations of DC are I'm struggling with them myself. I've resigned myself to rebuilding all tiers from scratch instead of trying to modify an existing cut diamond or model, in order to have control over optimization.

If I knew the Cut Designer better and freeform as opposed to centre angle method of cutting it would be a lot easier I am hoping.
Perhaps even the order of cutting would be different in real life faceting.
Do you have many designs where you cut the table facet last?
Table is the most sensitive factor in the (real life) cutting to super precision cuts. (eg margin of maximum scan error)
It must be correctly positioned at the start of the process and finally re-polished at the end of the process.

Dangerous when cutting for the highest precision possible.
 
ChunkyCushionLover said:
Do you have many designs where you cut the table facet last?
When designing I do both, that allows me to try various combos with less work....
find a kewl crown then do it crown first and add other pavilions and vis-versa.
 
Karl_K said:
ChunkyCushionLover said:
Do you have many designs where you cut the table facet last?
When designing I do both, that allows me to try various combos with less work....
find a kewl crown then do it crown first and add other pavilions and vis-versa.

Whether you start with a preform and cut the crown or pavilion first wasn't really my question, in theoretical space it doesn't really matter as long as the girdle is levelled before transferring. (That is assuming an oversized preform)

I am under the impression that no matter how it was built theoretically, in real life it will be done starting at the table (assuming sawn rough) and the order may be quite different from how it was theoretically built. With cutting of both the crown and pavilion at the same time being possible to ensure how one set of facets lines(like the mains) lines up well before the next tier is cut.

Right now I only know how to create using the CAM method (centre angle method) and cutting all facets to meetpoints so I don't have to measure distances. This requires cutting the table or culet last. I guess once I became more comfortable with more freeform methods in design space it won't matter as much.

Your thoughts?
 
ccl,
the cutting order and other details has to be worked out for each cut.
I know Yoram spent a couple hundred hours perfecting a cutting process for Octavia that is different from any other step cut he cuts.
Any more than saying that is his IP and not to be shared.
Refinement of the process can run into dozens of stones being cut and likely never really ends.
 
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