Diamond Delemna - are steep deeps with a bad HCA ever OK?

[firespark]

I've been lurking on this forum for some time. My FI has been shopping with me for diamonds to go in my engagement ring. I've learned a lot from Pricescope, but didn't do all the research I should have before we pulled the trigger on a diamond.

It's the classic story, the GIA score is excellent cut, very good polish with excellent symmetry. However, the HCA score is a shocking 4.9 I unfortunately didn't think about HCA score and was focused on the GIA cut rating and making sure we got a GIA cert diamond rather than EGL or some other potentially less reliable lab.

The specific details:
Overall depth: 62.9%
Medium faceted (3.5%)
Crown angle: 36.5
Pavillion angle: 41.2
Table: 57%
Crown: 16%
Pavillion: 43.5%

The diamond has either been set already or is about to be set. Is it worth trying to go back to the jeweller and ask to see other stones? The price is fair enough, but it's probably not so fantastic to justify not getting the best specs. I don't want to be a hassle to the jeweller as they have done a fantastic job so far and this is really my issue for not doing full enough research prior to the decision being made. In the shop we saw it under different light conditions and it looks good, but being a D colour probably helps. It's 0.74 carat, SI1.

Thanks for the help.

 

[duckduckgoose]

Re: Diamond Delemna - are steep deeps with a bad HCA ever OK

If you are doubting your choice then certainly you should do what you can to ensure you are getting exactly what you want. No doubt this is a special and expensive purchase for you. If it were me, I would inquire with the jeweler about what my options were. In the end I imagine they want you to be happy as well, even if it means that it requires a little more effort on their end. It shouldn't be too big a deal to reset a stone. Good luck!

 

[firespark]

Re: Diamond Delemna - are steep deeps with a bad HCA ever OK

If you are doubting your choice then certainly you should do what you can to ensure you are getting exactly what you want. No doubt this is a special and expensive purchase for you. If it were me, I would inquire with the jeweler about what my options were. In the end I imagine they want you to be happy as well, even if it means that it requires a little more effort on their end. It shouldn't be too big a deal to reset a stone. Good luck!

Thanks for the reply. I wasn't doubting my choice until putting the numbers into the HCA calculator! LOL It looked good in person, but I am no diamond expert. It was better than the other diamonds we were comparing to by far, but perhaps they were all HCA 6s or something

 

[duckduckgoose]

Re: Diamond Delemna - are steep deeps with a bad HCA ever OK

You're welcome - And either way, even if the jeweler is unable to make changes for you, all that matters is that you like it! So if you loved it in person before I am sure you will still love it in person again. It would be necessary for me to do what I needed to do to put my mind at ease by asking about my options, but if all is done then I am sure it is just meant to be your stone!

 

[firespark]

Re: Diamond Delemna - are steep deeps with a bad HCA ever OK

You're welcome - And either way, even if the jeweler is unable to make changes for you, all that matters is that you like it! So if you loved it in person before I am sure you will still love it in person again. It would be necessary for me to do what I needed to do to put my mind at ease by asking about my options, but if all is done then I am sure it is just meant to be your stone!

Yeah, I think it may be worth asking. Even according to GIA itself this is on the very extreme edge of excellent: http://www.diamondcut.gia.edu/charts/57_table.html

Obviously they must have had a reason to include it into the "excellent" category! But I think maybe what I'll do is see if they can't get ones that are closer in range to a better HCA score and then make sure I can't really tell the difference. It's a huge purchase, so getting it right is essential. I think I'm particularly worried because fire in a diamond is my highest desire and that's gotten the lowest mark on the HCA reading! Go figure

Does anyone happen to know best proportions in the excellent range for fire?

 

[yssie]

Re: Diamond Delemna - are steep deeps with a bad HCA ever OK

Agreed your vendor wants you to be happy with your purchase - he wants you to return for future purchase, he wants you to recommend his establishment to family and friends... you lose nothing by talking to him about your concerns.

1. What type of setting are we talking about? Removing and replacing a stone in a bezel setting might well not be possible without significant re-work, but resetting a stone into a standard prong setting will be a much simpler operation. I suggest calling your jeweller immediately and asking to have work halted whilst you decide how to proceed.

2. Post the GIA report number for this stone, or the entirety of the proportions diagram. A GIA EX is NOT going to be a doozy... and you saw it in-person and you loved it, and there's definite value to that!! As far as combinations go I would be much more iffy w/ a steeper pav than yours - if you were going to "miss" you erred in the right direction

Ultimately it's not a crisis - you always have options.


ETA: For "more fire" - more coloured light return in various lighting environments (at the expense of some white light return) compared to stones with other proportions flavours - aim for a small table, high crown, large pavilion mains, and high optical symmetry.

 

[firespark]

Re: Diamond Delemna - are steep deeps with a bad HCA ever OK

Agreed your vendor wants you to be happy with your purchase - he wants you to return for future purchase, he wants you to recommend his establishment to family and friends... you lose nothing by talking about your concerns

1. What type of setting are we talking about? Removing and replacing a stone in a bezel setting might well not be possible without significant re-work, but resetting a stone into a standard prong setting will be a much simpler operation. I suggest calling your jeweller immediately and asking to have work halted whilst you decide how to proceed.

2. Post the GIA report number for this stone, or the entirety of the proportions diagram. A GIA EX is NOT going to be a doozy... and you saw it in-person and you loved it, and there's definite value to that!! As far as combinations go I would be much more iffy w/ a steeper pav than yours - if you were going to "miss" you erred in the right direction

Ultimately it's not a crisis - you always have options.

1) It's just a classic 6 prong setting. So ideally not so much trouble there. I actually don't mind the idea of steep/deep so much (which is why the question about bad HCA, LOL). In fact, I kinda like it as I've specifically picked this setting to show off the whole of the stone, so you can see the sides and a bit of extra depth I think is charming and I'd enjoy seeing from the side view of the diamond.

2) Proportions diagram is attached.

 

[pfunk]

Re: Diamond Delemna - are steep deeps with a bad HCA ever OK

I'm glad to hear that you have an open style setting. That will allow light to enter from the pavilion as well, which can help "fill in" some of the light lost due to leakage in a steep/deep stone.

Trust your eyes. If you love it, don't overthink it. There are many different types of diamonds and what is beautiful to some is less beautiful to others. Garry likes shallow stones more than deep ones, and the HCA tool reflects that by giving your diamond a harsh score. The score, however, doesn't mean the diamond won't be beautiful to you. You said the one you chose looked far better than the others that you saw, and if the others included diamonds closer to an ideal cut and you still chose the steep/deep then no worries. Enjoy it!

 

[WinkHPD]

Re: Diamond Delemna - are steep deeps with a bad HCA ever OK

I'm glad to hear that you have an open style setting. That will allow light to enter from the pavilion as well, which can help "fill in" some of the light lost due to leakage in a steep/deep stone.

Trust your eyes. If you love it, don't overthink it. There are many different types of diamonds and what is beautiful to some is less beautiful to others. Garry likes shallow stones more than deep ones, and the HCA tool reflects that by giving your diamond a harsh score. The score, however, doesn't mean the diamond won't be beautiful to you. You said the one you chose looked far better than the others that you saw, and if the others included diamonds closer to an ideal cut and you still chose the steep/deep then no worries. Enjoy it!

Since you have the advantage of working with a local jeweler why wouldn't you take the opportunity to see more than one diamond, including one that is similar in size, but not so steep and deep. I am not sure that I agree with Pfunk that having an open style setting will allow light to enter from the pavilion to "fill in" some of the light lost from leakage.

What I think is that if you see a stone that is better cut side by side with this one, even if you do not know which one is which, that you will like the better cut one better. I think this is especially going to be true if you look at the diamonds in several lighting conditions.

Since you are having qualms, it seems to me that the experience of choosing the one that you like best from two to four diamonds would be an extraordinary confidence builder.

Wink

 

[firespark]

Re: Diamond Delemna - are steep deeps with a bad HCA ever OK

Thanks for the replies again.

I did choose from multiple diamonds, but I do not have an idea of the HCA score of all of them. I'm wondering if it will even be noticeable if there's light leakage or if my personal preferences are just not a match to the HCA (which may be why it got GIA ex despite bad angles?)

Does anyone know offhand some threads with pictures or videos that show the difference between diamonds with a bad HCA score (like 4-5) vs better ones?

I've been looking around quite a bit and can't really find anything like that.

 

[pfunk]

Re: Diamond Delemna - are steep deeps with a bad HCA ever OK

I am not sure that I agree with Pfunk that having an open style setting will allow light to enter from the pavilion to "fill in" some of the light lost from leakage.

The reason I said that is because I have seen in mentioned here several times in some of the threads the experts have been involved in. Here is a quote from Garry in an old thread...

"When set in high 4 claw ring settings deep leaky stones are able to get some light from underneath and behind - so the leakage zones do not look too dark- and light sources from partial leakage are from light entering close to the critical angle - which can emerge out the crown as broadly dispersed firey flashes."

Also from Garry in the same thread...

"1. Steep deeps show a dark ‘ring of death’ zone just inside the table when they are set in rubbed in settings (you can see that in the top left image in the first post), or pendants, earrings and very low ring settings, because no light can get in the leakage area. We identify this as a negative effect in larger diamonds; in very small diamonds our eye can not resolve the ugly dark ring.

2. This dark zone produces fewer bright sparkles (but fire can be good from this zone in high open set rings – see the little image below in the top left corner of the big picture)."

And a link to this particular thread...

https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/simple-science-is-shallow-or-deep-better.44007/

 

[yssie]

Re: Diamond Delemna - are steep deeps with a bad HCA ever OK

Duplicate

 

[yssie]

Re: Diamond Delemna - are steep deeps with a bad HCA ever OK

Do you have a Crafted by Infinity or Hearts on Fire dealer nearby? If so, your best bet to compare and contrast and find out what's important to you is really to see more stones in-person make an appointment, let them know you'd like to see stones of similar size and colour as yours, and see what you think! Both are top-of-the-line brands that are stocked and sold by other distributors, vs. many of the other PS favourite that are only available in-house from one vendor.

 

[WinkHPD]

Re: Diamond Delemna - are steep deeps with a bad HCA ever OK

Thanks for the replies again.

I did choose from multiple diamonds, but I do not have an idea of the HCA score of all of them. I'm wondering if it will even be noticeable if there's light leakage or if my personal preferences are just not a match to the HCA (which may be why it got GIA ex despite bad angles?)

Does anyone know offhand some threads with pictures or videos that show the difference between diamonds with a bad HCA score (like 4-5) vs better ones?

I've been looking around quite a bit and can't really find anything like that.

I do not currently have any stones available with HCA of 4 to 5 and rarely see such stones any more as they just are not what I work with since I specialize in diamonds that are all AGS 0 cut grades. However, I will book mark this thread, and when I get one of those rare opportunities I will see if I can capture the obvious eye visible differences on a video for you.

I will say this though, to Pfunk's surprise and pleasure I am sure, that I have seen HCA 4's and 5's that are visually beautiful. I used to have a Value Select line on my site and I had one HCA 5 stone that was just stunning. I do not remember the numbers on it, but it was that needle in a haystack diamond that performed admirably, even though it was cut for weight retention.

On second thought, I will not worry about that video too much. Even if I find a GREAT AND PERFECT example of what I normally think about steep deep doggy doo diamonds, it will still only be an anecdotal proof of my opinion and not a true scientific proof of my thoughts. Having once sold, proudly, a beautiful HCA 5 diamond, I can not say they do not exist, but I can say, truthfully, that there are very darn few of them, especially when compared to a top of the grade AGS 0 cut grade diamond.

Wink

 

[WinkHPD]

Re: Diamond Delemna - are steep deeps with a bad HCA ever OK

Do you have a Crafted by Infinity or Hearts on Fire dealer nearby? If so, your best bet to compare and contrast and find out what's important to you is really to see more stones in-person make an appointment, let them know you'd like to see stones of similar size and colour as yours, and see what you think! Both are top-of-the-line brands that are stocked and sold by other distributors, vs. many of the other PS favourite that are only available in-house from one vendor.

Good morning Yssie. What an excellent suggestion for our OP. If he compares his stone versus a Crafted by Infinity or a Hearts on Fire diamond he will be looking at a top of the grade AGS 0 cut diamond and then he will know if he likes one flavor better than the other. If he, in a "blind taste test," likes the diamond he already chose better, then he can be completely confident that he has made the best choice for him.

Thank you.

Wink

 

[pfunk]

Re: Diamond Delemna - are steep deeps with a bad HCA ever OK

Do you have a Crafted by Infinity or Hearts on Fire dealer nearby? If so, your best bet to compare and contrast and find out what's important to you is really to see more stones in-person make an appointment, let them know you'd like to see stones of similar size and colour as yours, and see what you think! Both are top-of-the-line brands that are stocked and sold by other distributors, vs. many of the other PS favourite that are only available in-house from one vendor.

Good morning Yssie. What an excellent suggestion for our OP. If he compares his stone versus a Crafted by Infinity or a Hearts on Fire diamond he will be looking at a top of the grade AGS 0 cut diamond and then he will know if he likes one flavor better than the other. If he, in a "blind taste test," likes the diamond he already chose better, then he can be completely confident that he has made the best choice for him.

Thank you.

Wink

I agree, this is the best way to find out what YOUR eyes prefer. I would add one suggestion though. I would make sure the comparison stones are actually within the constraints of your budget and factor in that important 5th c, cost. You can be sure that a HOF or CBI stone of the same color, clarity, and carat will be more expensive and might not be doable for your budget, so you may have to sacrifice somewhere. Fortunately, you won't need to match carat weight as the HOF or CBI stone will be cut to look its weight and you can get away with less carat and still have equal diameter.

 

[firespark]

Re: Diamond Delemna - are steep deeps with a bad HCA ever OK

Thanks for the links and further explanation. It sounds like it is possible this could simply be the diamond we like the look of despite it being a bit of a dog.

I don't have a dealer of those types of stones near to me. I did have a look through another vendors list and saw one that hits 1.5 HCA at better spec (excellent pololish and VS1). I find it hard to believe though at the price there's not something else problematic with it.

Since I'm not shopping online, maybe the HCA score should just simply be out of my mind!

 

[Dancing Fire]

Re: Diamond Delemna - are steep deeps with a bad HCA ever OK

Here's my daughter's GIA steep/deep stone. A better cut stone of its size should be .10mm larger in diameter..
[URL='https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/my-daughters-gia-xxx-steep-deep-e-ring.203566/']https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/my-daughters-gia-xxx-steep-deep-e-ring.203566/[/URL]

Is it a dog?, No.
could her then BF have pick a better stone?, yes.
could I see the difference b/t her's and her mom's top ideal cuts? yes.

 

[Dancing Fire]

Re: Diamond Delemna - are steep deeps with a bad HCA ever OK

Thanks for the links and further explanation. It sounds like it is possible this could simply be the diamond we like the look of despite it being a bit of a dog.

I don't think your stone will be a dog. The worse part about a deep stone is losing diameter. I'd prefer a deeper stone (61.5 to 62%) compared to other members here.

 

[gm89uk]

Re: Diamond Delemna - are steep deeps with a bad HCA ever OK

Prior to seeking advice on pricescope I got a diamond that was a 36.5/41.2 with 57.5% table and 63.4% depth. It is, a fair amount deeper than yours. I did think this diamond looked beautiful in the store under the strong halogen lights, and had an excellent scintillation and fire. I did "look under different lighting conditions" but only just moving around the store (but it's hard to get away from those lights!) However I was advised to examine the diamond thoroughly on a cloudy day and in a normal lit room round the back away from the strong focused lights and the story completely changed for me. It was much more lifeless and dull.

Deep set diamonds with higher crowns will tend to excel in jewellery store lighting environments that will bring out their fire. I just advise that you really look in all lighting environments thoroughly as I thought I had initially but not sufficiently and this ended in disappointment and troubles with refunds etc. I wish you the best with your purchase

 

[diamondseeker2006]

Re: Diamond Delemna - are steep deeps with a bad HCA ever OK

I skimmed the thread and may have missed this, but what is the diameter? A deep stone often faces up like a smaller stone. That would be a prime reason I would avoid it aside from the potential light return issues. For example, this well cut .74 stone is over 5.8mm in diameter. What is the diameter of the stone you are looking at?

If this was for me, I would absolutely tell the jeweler I wanted a better cut diamond. Here are specs that usually land in ideal cut territory.

table 54-58

depth 60-62.3

crown angle 34-35.0

pavilion angle 40.6-41.0

 

[firespark]

Re: Diamond Delemna - are steep deeps with a bad HCA ever OK

Prior to seeking advice on pricescope I got a diamond that was a 36.5/41.2 with 57.5% table and 63.4% depth. It is, a fair amount deeper than yours. I did think this diamond looked beautiful in the store under the strong halogen lights, and had an excellent scintillation and fire. I did "look under different lighting conditions" but only just moving around the store (but it's hard to get away from those lights!) However I was advised to examine the diamond thoroughly on a cloudy day and in a normal lit room round the back away from the strong focused lights and the story completely changed for me. It was much more lifeless and dull.

Deep set diamonds with higher crowns will tend to excel in jewellery store lighting environments that will bring out their fire. I just advise that you really look in all lighting environments thoroughly as I thought I had initially but not sufficiently and this ended in disappointment and troubles with refunds etc. I wish you the best with your purchase

I imagine you switched this diamond then?

I'll see what I can do about explaining to the jeweller my concerns and ensure to get a very good look in dimmer lights and cloudy environment. The ring is already set so I will check it out today and see if there's any negatives.

 

[firespark]

Re: Diamond Delemna - are steep deeps with a bad HCA ever OK

I skimmed the thread and may have missed this, but what is the diameter? A deep stone often faces up like a smaller stone. That would be a prime reason I would avoid it aside from the potential light return issues. For example, this well cut .74 stone is over 5.8mm in diameter. What is the diameter of the stone you are looking at?

If this was for me, I would absolutely tell the jeweler I wanted a better cut diamond. Here are specs that usually land in ideal cut territory.

table 54-58

depth 60-62.3

crown angle 34-35.0

pavilion angle 40.6-41.0

Thanks for the advice on measurements and the example of your daughter's ring! It really does look nice, so maybe I definitely shouldn't be so worried.

The measurements are: 5.76 - 5.78 x 3.63 mm

So it's not terribly off 5.8.

 

[firespark]

Re: Diamond Delemna - are steep deeps with a bad HCA ever OK

As it turns out, the diamond is looking absolutely incredible. I'm glad not to have gone too wild bothering the jeweller about it as I may have missed out on one that suits quite well!

There's a few things to be said about it. I think that the colour of it really does help. Because it's a D, it's just always blazing white. Perhaps it would be even better without light leakage, perhaps not (and perhaps, it doesn't have any at all, I'll never put it through a fancy scanning tool so I'll never know). However, looking at the photo of the other steep/deep and especially looking at Kelli's former steep/deep, it seems like the colour can help to cause dark spotting potentially?

Also, the diamond's inclusion is right smack in the middle of the table (as far as I could tell, can't figure as to how deep down it is). It is a crystal inclusion and was pretty hard to see. Potentially this affects the diamond as well. I'm going to buy a loupe so I can look a bit more now in my own leisure as I'm curious about it.

The only time it's not really doing much for the eye is in very overcast, but even then it's very, very bright. I'm not sure a much better cut would necessarily help with the overcast light conditions.

 

[decisively_unsure]

Yes sometimes stones hammered by HCA are awesome in real life. I didn't let a 5.7 HCA score put me off. There are so many more variables than HCA looks at. I trust GIA Excellent more than HCA.

 

[firespark]

Re: Diamond Delemna - are steep deeps with a bad HCA ever OK

Yes sometimes stones hammered by HCA are awesome in real life. I didn't let a 5.7 HCA score put me off. There are so many more variables than HCA looks at. I trust GIA Excellent more than HCA.

Good to hear you've gotten a nice non-HCA compliant one as well!

I think I'm leaning towards trusting both a bit. If I was shopping sight unseen, I'd probably lean towards the HCA for sure. I'm not sure, but it looks like mine may be quite good in terms of optical symmetry. I can see the arrows quite clearly and in fact a shine against an arrow can go straight out of the deep and into the end of the diamond which is pretty cool. Having said that, it can kinda illustrate what might happen if it was not optically symmetric. EG the streak of light would start at the beginning of an arrow and miss the arrowhead, which could look kinda lame as it doesn't follow out and gets stuck in the deep, if that makes sense.

I suspect that the optical symmetry means a lot and if you get one that is bad on the HCA then you really need the optical symmetry to carry it forward. If you get one that is good on the HCA, even if it is a bit non-symmetrical then it can still manage to be a pretty kicking diamond.

I'm sure others who know more on this topic may be able to let me know if that's a misconception or not