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Diamond Light Performance – Marketing Spin or Diamond Shopping Essentials?

Texas Leaguer

Ideal_Rock
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Jul 27, 2009
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If you visit an online diamond forum, or otherwise use the internet to do your due diligence when shopping for a diamond, you have probably come across the term light performance. Most people think of fine diamonds as having brilliance and fire, and these are clearly fundamental attributes of diamond beauty. But is there more to this concept of light performance, or is it just something inherent to all diamonds by virtue of their unique physical properties?

Brilliance and fire are terms we have all heard forever in describing diamond beauty, and we tend to think about them interchangeably. But if you actually break the terms down you find that that they are distinct attributes. And you discover that they are driven by components such as contrast, brightness, leakage and scintillation that taken together result in the fire and brilliance we perceive. A diamond is essentially a tiny sculpture of mirrors, and like an orchestra performing a piece of music, the system of mirrors in a diamond act on light rays to create a visual performance. And all the visual “instruments” need to be in alignment for that performance to be to be worthy of an ovation!

Like an orchestra, diamonds can perform different styles of visual performance depending on their shape and facet configurations. The same shape and facet configuration can also deliver different flavors depending on specific details of their proportions and facet angles.

How far down this rabbit hole should I go?
Everybody is different when it comes to how technical they want to get. But one reason many decide to look deeper into light performance is that most gemological laboratories only offer a basic overall cut grade that does not take into account things like facet precision and 3D symmetry, which can have a significant impact on light performance. And when it comes to fancy shape diamonds (non-round shapes such as oval, cushion, radiant, etc), most laboratories including GIA, provide no overall cut grade on their reports. So a shopper is forced to make an assessment independent of laboratory guidance.

Tools for Light Performance Assessment
There are a number of tools that provide more information about a diamond’s light performance than can be gleaned from a laboratory report.
ASET is a tool developed by AGS Laboratories that informs visually about how a diamond is handling light, showing brightness, contrast, and light leakage in a color coded graphical display. *Note: AGS Laboratories was recently acquired by GIA.

IdealScope is a slightly narrower view of diamond light return, light leakage, and contrast that is most widely used on round brilliant diamonds. Being less complex than ASET it is also somewhat easier to interpret.

Hearts and Arrows is a tool to assess a round diamond’s optical precision. Only when all facets are aligned properly in three dimensions will a precise pattern of hearts (from table view) and arrows (from pavilion view) be exhibited.


1722288190257.jpeg

Fancy Shape Assessment
When it comes to fancy shapes, cut quality assessment is uncharted territory to a large extent. As mentioned, the world’s best known gem laboratory (GIA) does not yet provide an overall cut grade on non-round shapes (*with their acquisition of AGS Laboratories light performance-based cut grading technology this is evolving). Some laboratories that do provide cut grading use parameter-based methods that do not take into account the contributions of all facets, or factor in things like 3D facet alignment. Small differences in facet angles, pointing direction (azimuth) and length to width ratio can have significant impacts of light performance in fancies.

Online tools and cut estimators use parameters found on lab reports, which are themselves rounded and averaged, to peg a cut grade to a predefined table. This is not a direct assessment and is only capable of eliminating known bad parameters. The best among them for round diamonds, and the only one transparent about its methodology, is the Holloway Cut Advisor (HCA). But within a broad range that “pass” these tools, more information (e.g an IdealsScope image) is still necessary to have a firm enough grasp on actual light performance to make an informed decision.

While ASET can provide important information about how a fancy shape is handling light, learning to interpret widely varied ASET signatures for different shapes and facet configurations is something few people have the experience to do well.

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The Importance of High Quality Video
For diamonds of all shapes, high quality video is essential to shopping online. Not only can you see clarity features, but you can see aspects of the diamond’s facet structure and light performance in motion. This gives you the ability to assess things like eye-clean and bowtie, and to identify different flavors of light performance such as ‘crushed ice’.

But the value of both video and advanced light performance imaging is hampered by lack of uniformity across the web. The process can vary dramatically from website to website, as well as the execution. In many cases it adds little or no value in understanding the nuances of cut quality.

Video taken in both diffuse and spot lighting environments is particularly helpful as you can see the diamond’s clarity features as well as its brightness and potential for fire.

1722288397314.jpeg

Video in Diffuse Lighting (left) and Spot Lighting (right)​

Transparency and Light Performance
As more diamond shoppers have begun to appreciate the critical role cut quality plays in the beauty of diamonds, many have become obsessed with finding the perfect cut. And this is a worthy goal, considering how important precision cutting is to the magical beauty of diamond. But one thing that is generally overlooked by shoppers seeking out diamonds with optimal light performance is transparency. We naturally think of diamonds as a transparent material, but clarity features can sometimes diminish a diamond’s ability to fully propagate light and in some cases render a diamond hazy and lifeless, even if perfectly cut. This happens in both lab grown and natural diamonds. To date, no gemological laboratory is providing a measure or grade for diamond transparency.

Lab grown diamond production today is mostly in the upper clarity grades, but two things can still cause a lab diamond to have compromised transparency; strain and striation. These issues arise from irregularities in the carbon lattice during the growth process and can leave a diamond, even one with a high clarity grade, with a subtle blurriness that prevents the material from achieving optimal performance. With natural diamonds it is usually clarity features that cause diminished transparency, and it is usually in the Si and below grades where we see this problem. Light scattering inclusion types like twinning wisps, graining and clouds (especially in combination) can conspire to rob a diamond of its crispness, no matter how well cut.

Transparency is not a yes/no proposition but rather like color, clarity and fluorescence, is a factor on a continuum. In many cases the effect is subtle enough to require a trained eye to accurately assess. The diamond on the left below has diminished transparency causing it to be slightly hazy. Photos such as this one taken in diffused light from above show only slight difference in transparency. Directional lighting from the side tends to show the effect more readily. *None of the gemological laboratories currently measure or grade transparency on their reports.

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Shopping for Top Performers without having to get an Advanced Degree in Gemology
Most shoppers fall into the category of being motivated to get the most beautiful stone but without wanting to dedicate an undo portion of their lives to the process! The best approach is to use the convenient cut estimator tools, such as the HCA, as “rejection tools” to eliminate candidates with known proportion faults. Then request advanced light performance images to acquire more information about how the diamond is handling light and how precisely it is faceted, with the understanding that the particular merchant may or may not be able to supply them. And finally, as is always a good approach anytime you are shopping for an important product, deal with a merchant you can trust and who has the expertise and reputation for customer care that will give you confidence in your purchase.
 
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A well cut and designed diamond creates an ever changing painting with light that is pleasing to the viewer.
Then when moved they make a light show.

The key word is light, different lighting environments change the picture and the show.
The difference between seeing fire and brilliance for any given diamond is light!
Different shapes and designs have different lighting range where they show fire vs brilliance.
Some will show fire across a wider range of light conditions and some narrower but the fire from both in lighting highly conductive to fire could be just as awesome!

When we discuss light environments that not only includes the lighting present but the viewing distance and even what color shirt you have on.
In the real world you may rotate your diamond just a couple degrees and it can go from brilliance to fire or even a mix of them. A fun game is to get 1/2 the diamond showing fire and 1/2 showing brilliance at the same time.

Thank you Bryan for an excellent start to a discussion of an often misunderstood topic.
 
When we discuss light environments that not only includes the lighting present but the viewing distance and even what color shirt you have on.
In the real world you may rotate your diamond just a couple degrees and it can go from brilliance to fire or even a mix of them. A fun game is to get 1/2 the diamond showing fire and 1/2 showing brilliance at the same time.

I really like doing this outside in my yard

My neighbors probably (know) think I'm crazy when I take my whole collection outside to play with
 
A well cut and designed diamond creates an ever changing painting with light that is pleasing to the viewer.
Then when moved they make a light show.

The key word is light, different lighting environments change the picture and the show.
The difference between seeing fire and brilliance for any given diamond is light!
Different shapes and designs have different lighting range where they show fire vs brilliance.
Some will show fire across a wider range of light conditions and some narrower but the fire from both in lighting highly conductive to fire could be just as awesome!

When we discuss light environments that not only includes the lighting present but the viewing distance and even what color shirt you have on.
In the real world you may rotate your diamond just a couple degrees and it can go from brilliance to fire or even a mix of them. A fun game is to get 1/2 the diamond showing fire and 1/2 showing brilliance at the same time.

Thank you Bryan for an excellent start to a discussion of an often misunderstood topic.

Important observations Karl.
It's really intriguing to me how many flavors of light performance there are, and how different they can be. From brilliant to crushed ice to the unique show that step cuts put on. And each has its devoted fans!
 
I really like doing this outside in my yard

My neighbors probably (know) think I'm crazy when I take my whole collection outside to play with

Certain outdoor scenarios are fantastic to appreciate what a diamond can do!
But outdoors can also be fickle.
 
Under a big leafy tree is one of the most amazing ways to view gemstones of all kinds.
Direct sunlight not so much.

Interesting point to the leafy tree - they work best on a bright cloud covered day.
The principle was developed into a device made (patented?) by Marty Haske, MIT rocket scientist.
A series of hundreds or thousands of pin holes as tiny light sources which i suspect Michael Cowing now owns as seen in his images:
Polo Ralph Lauren and Diamonds.png
I used the polo in a linked in post - ignore it :-)
 
^ "Ignore the unrelated horse in the right half of this image" = all that I can focus on :lol-2:
 
^ "Ignore the unrelated horse in the right half of this image" = all that I can focus on :lol-2:
OK, a bad distraction on Bryan's post - here is the article on LI - it is about branding and diamonds:
 
Brilliance and fire are terms we have all heard forever in describing diamond beauty, and we tend to think about them interchangeably. But if you actually break the terms down you find that that they are distinct attributes. And you discover that they are driven by components such as contrast, brightness, leakage and scintillation that taken together result in the fire and brilliance we perceive. A diamond is essentially a tiny sculpture of mirrors, and like an orchestra performing a piece of music, the system of mirrors in a diamond act on light rays to create a visual performance. And all the visual “instruments” need to be in alignment for that performance to be to be worthy of an ovation!
Fun topic Bryan, thanks for kicking it off and apologies for my deviations. so thought I best add some value as well as some fun.
The unspoken and non-understood large factor is human vision and human perception (2 different things).
In this image (one of very many) you can see how our perception is totally different to what each eye sees (try it).

1722309039575.png
This is taken from a 10 year old article that is still 20 years ahead of its time:

 
Thanks a lot to Bryan, Karl and Garry

Such a big disappointment I feel when customers are looking for certain light properties in a diamond, like fire and there is not enough simple quick explanation to help them choose.

let's imagine we face a customer who is looking for great Fire in his/her diamond but he/she actually wants to wear the diamond 90% of the time in office lighting, so the customer searches a lot and spends a lot to buy a piece of diamond which can not show the ultimate Fire under scattered light, and also because the customer emphasized on Fire, it's most likely that the selected diamond doesn't have the amazing brilliance.

also, the market is greatly suffering from lack of an accurate guide for selecting a diamond for different kinds of jewelry.

Vendors and Labs are promising that they are selecting or pointing out the best cut diamonds but for what kind of purpose??
A good diamond for a Ring may not be good anymore for an Earring, a great diamond for an Earring may not be great for a Bracelet.



If you wanna go deeply scientific a good diamond for a dark-skinned person must be different from a light-skinned person.

a good diamond for those with short hair is not interesting enough for those who have very long curly hair


Do you suggest the same round diamond for a ring setting for these guys?
gfhfgh.pngUntitled.png


Unfortunately, I know NO vendor or lab that suggests different diamonds for these two persons, does anyone know one?


@Serg @Garry H (Cut Nut) @Texas Leaguer @Karl_K
 
The unspoken and non-understood large factor is human vision and human perception (2 different things).
In this image (one of very many) you can see how our perception is totally different to what each eye sees (try it).
As I recall this was sort of a "known unknown" (as one former defense secretary used to say) that the AGSL grappled with in development of their light performance system. But the computing power at the time was insufficient to do the calculations in a reasonable time frame. Initially the ray tracer took like 30 minutes to run on their current "mono vision" model. Or as @Serg would say "cyclops vision". ;-)

If you are running a laboratory and hope to do volume even the 30 minutes would be unsustainable. But with technology advances they were able to bring that down to a few minutes for each stone.

The other thing to recognize is that this effect is pretty much confined to close up viewing. At a fairly short viewing distance away stereo vision gives way to monovision and the stone becomes a point that both eyes are seeing essentially the same.

One of the things that AGSL research brought forward in their peer reviewed publications was the active role the observer plays in the light performance equation. From head shadow to clipping of individual colored sparkles by the observers pupil. There is a lot of human perception information included in that material. And, of course, it is a subject that has been studied and written about extensively by you and the researchers at Octonus.

With all the variables involved, including those unique to the observer, it is no wonder that that people have different tastes and preferences in diamonds.
 
Such a big disappointment I feel when customers are looking for certain light properties in a diamond, like fire and there is not enough simple quick explanation to help them choose.

let's imagine we face a customer who is looking for great Fire in his/her diamond but he/she actually wants to wear the diamond 90% of the time in office lighting, so the customer searches a lot and spends a lot to buy a piece of diamond which can not show the ultimate Fire under scattered light, and also because the customer emphasized on Fire, it's most likely that the selected diamond doesn't have the amazing brilliance.
It's important to consider lifestyle factors and preferences in choosing a diamond. There are some factors that are very individual -specific as you point out.

As for understanding "fire", I liken it to seeing a rainbow after a rain shower. Not every rain is followed by a rainbow - the conditions have to be just right. But when you do see it the effect is magical. So fire is a potential attribute. If the lighting environment is conducive, you can potentially see lots of colored sparkles (fire). And it is possible to evaluate a diamond for that potential.
 
It's important to consider lifestyle factors and preferences in choosing a diamond. There are some factors that are very individual -specific as you point out.

As for understanding "fire", I liken it to seeing a rainbow after a rain shower. Not every rain is followed by a rainbow - the conditions have to be just right. But when you do see it the effect is magical. So fire is a potential attribute. If the lighting environment is conducive, you can potentially see lots of colored sparkles (fire). And it is possible to evaluate a diamond for that potential.

This is an important point regarding fire. I think folks sometimes think that from the moment you open the ring box, the diamond should light up like it is on fire! It will - if the lighting conditions are right - but they need to understand that it is dependent on cut and lighting!
 
This is an important point regarding fire. I think folks sometimes think that from the moment you open the ring box, the diamond should light up like it is on fire! It will - if the lighting conditions are right - but they need to understand that it is dependent on cut and lighting!

I have arguments with my team when they make ring box opening videos to send to clients for pieces we just completed. The lid obscures half the available illumination making my diamonds look and feel sad!
 
The other thing to recognize is that this effect is pretty much confined to close up viewing. At a fairly short viewing distance away stereo vision gives way to monovision and the stone becomes a point that both eyes are seeing essentially the same.
Loved your rainbow after rain analogy Bryan!
The stereo brilliance effect is of course way stronger from closer up.
Re viewing distance becoming monoscopic - just did the experiment with a 1ct stone.
At 2 foot away it is impossible to see the largest flashes of fire coming from direct sunlight with both eyes.
Some strong white flashes were white with one eye and colored with the other - but the white was the only thing visible with both eyes open.
 
Thanks a lot to Bryan, Karl and Garry

Such a big disappointment I feel when customers are looking for certain light properties in a diamond, like fire and there is not enough simple quick explanation to help them choose.

let's imagine we face a customer who is looking for great Fire in his/her diamond but he/she actually wants to wear the diamond 90% of the time in office lighting, so the customer searches a lot and spends a lot to buy a piece of diamond which can not show the ultimate Fire under scattered light, and also because the customer emphasized on Fire, it's most likely that the selected diamond doesn't have the amazing brilliance.

also, the market is greatly suffering from lack of an accurate guide for selecting a diamond for different kinds of jewelry.

Vendors and Labs are promising that they are selecting or pointing out the best cut diamonds but for what kind of purpose??
A good diamond for a Ring may not be good anymore for an Earring, a great diamond for an Earring may not be great for a Bracelet.



If you wanna go deeply scientific a good diamond for a dark-skinned person must be different from a light-skinned person.

a good diamond for those with short hair is not interesting enough for those who have very long curly hair


Do you suggest the same round diamond for a ring setting for these guys?
gfhfgh.pngUntitled.png


Unfortunately, I know NO vendor or lab that suggests different diamonds for these two persons, does anyone know one?


@Serg @Garry H (Cut Nut) @Texas Leaguer @Karl_K

We had these discussions often with Bruce Harding, who sadly has gone to G-d.
Yes - it is another of the human variables along with individual focal distance - which changes in most people over time.
 
I liken it to seeing a rainbow after a rain shower. Not every rain is followed by a rainbow

Thanks Bryan
I like this analogy and I do agree with you, But a customer won't figure it out by taking a look at vendors' websites or explanations from labs.

do you agree?

We had these discussions often with Bruce Harding, who sadly has gone to G-d.
Yes - it is another of the human variables along with individual focal distance - which changes in most people over time.

Thanks Garry
Yeah for sure most of people need different kinds of diamonds when they get older.

I really like to know your own experience comparing your 20s and now, please.


This is an important point regarding fire. I think folks sometimes think that from the moment you open the ring box, the diamond should light up like it is on fire! It will - if the lighting conditions are right - but they need to understand that it is dependent on cut and lighting!

I would say that "Labs and Vendors make/cause the folk to think like that"


@Garry H (Cut Nut) and @Texas Leaguer would you please help me understand if labs and vendors do this intentionally (manipulating customers) or if it's just about something else?? Please
 
@V_sh
The problem is its complex and complex does not drive sales.
That is why a basic 4c presentation is simple and easy to explain in a few simple words at the sales counter or a website.

Lets talk about fire.....
First you have to explain what fire is and that its 100% lighting dependent, then you have to lecture about different lighting types.
Then you have to talk about the different types of fire and different cuts.
Large fire(EC) small fire(Crushed ice) or mixed(MRB)
This goes along with the concept of different diamonds across the entire range of lighting will display fire in smaller and larger portions of the range.
In general stones producing small fire will only show it in very specific lighting and those producing large fire will show it in a wider range.
How many people in the outside of PS will even read my simple outline much less a full tutorial?

Diamonds are a mass market item and advertised as such.

Where the labs are really letting consumers down is not grading transparency, that is a much larger problem than not going into a huge discussion about fire.

Here is an example I was helping someone select a stone.
I started to explain a bunch of things and he said,
I dont need to know that stuff but I'm glad you do.
So I can't really blame the vendors for not digging down in the details.
For the few that do go on a deep dive I will bet the pages explaining the complex topics deeply get far fewer hits than the simpler advertising pages.

What it boils down to 4c easy, IS/ASET/H&A images easy show a few bad and a few good ones, video wow pretty, while fire is extremely hard.
 
V sh:
"Thanks Garry
Yeah for sure most of people need different kinds of diamonds when they get older.

I really like to know your own experience comparing your 20s and now, please."

Not relevant, but from about early 40's presbyopia kicked in and I required specs for close up reading and work.
By age 70, last year, my short vision returned, and this past year I now require specs for distance and driving.
 
Unfortunately, I know NO vendor or lab that suggests different diamonds for these two persons, does anyone know one?

Hi!!!! As part of our vetting process when working with our clients we always ask about things like skin tone, age and demographics of the recipient. I’d guess that other, independently owned dealers - or smart salespeople- also consider these factors.

Overall, light performance is a subject near and dear to me.
I’ve fought against the terminology forever.
Lab diamonds have caused me to completely reevaluate my position.
When the parameters of a diamond purchase was determined by De Beers ( figuratively) many compromises needed to be made.
Lab diamonds have changed all that.
It’s so much easier to find the exact size, color, clarity for livable prices. This means I don’t need to use as much of my own judgement to fit a diamond into a budget when selecting stones.
Caused me to dust off my DiBox and start using ASET for round diamonds.
I admire perfection in cut. Still don’t thing the “P” word is most applicable because of the demographic issues.
A radiant can never “perform “ as well as a round by these standards…..
Are people who want a radiant cut “settling” for a stone that underperforms ??
That is the issue for me.
 
Hi!!!! As part of our vetting process when working with our clients we always ask about things like skin tone, age and demographics of the recipient. I’d guess that other, independently owned dealers - or smart salespeople- also consider these factors.

Overall, light performance is a subject near and dear to me.
I’ve fought against the terminology forever.
Lab diamonds have caused me to completely reevaluate my position.
When the parameters of a diamond purchase was determined by De Beers ( figuratively) many compromises needed to be made.
Lab diamonds have changed all that.
It’s so much easier to find the exact size, color, clarity for livable prices. This means I don’t need to use as much of my own judgement to fit a diamond into a budget when selecting stones.
Caused me to dust off my DiBox and start using ASET for round diamonds.
I admire perfection in cut. Still don’t thing the “P” word is most applicable because of the demographic issues.
A radiant can never “perform “ as well as a round by these standards…..
Are people who want a radiant cut “settling” for a stone that underperforms ??
That is the issue for me.

No need to fight against the term light performance. BUT a diamond has to be evaluated for light performance against its peers. That is, shape and faceting style. The performance of an olympic diver cannot be evaluated by the same criteria as an olympic swimmer.

And things like dance performances are still "performances" but are much more into the artistic elements which entail more subjectivity on the part of those doing the judging.

It's true that a diamond merchant should be very thoughtful of all the personal factors and tastes that a client brings to the table in order to guide them to a diamond that really suits them and that they will love. And helping them to understand their diamond's unique properties enables the client to fully appreciate owning it.
 
I'll throw this out for further discussion on this topic - scintillation.

It's one of those terms that we tend to use interchangeably with brilliance, and of course it is related, but it also has a life all it's own. (pun intended :-)) A diamond can have essentially the same levels of brightness and contrast but have very different flavors due to differences in scintillation - small and fast on/off blinking or larger/slower flashes.

As key to diamond appearance a scintillation is, it is interesting to note that it is NOT one of the things measured in the AGS light performance grading system! (brightness, contrast, leakage, dispersion)

Why do you think that is?
 
BUT a diamond has to be evaluated for light performance against its peers.

You're making my point very well.
In your comparison, diving needs to be judged subjectively ( like a diamond) whereas a swim race is won by the fasted swimmer. Nothing to interpret.

The diver might do a belly flop, which might actually please some onlookers more than a perfect swan dive....are they wrong?
But if Michael Phelps swam the 100 faster than all the competitors, his performance is NOT subjective.
In the Olympics, we're allowing the diving judges to subjectively assess the performance.
I don't feel that consumers should allow diamond sellers that same leeway to decide which "performance" is best.
It's a semantic difference- and your company surely does offer substance to back up your subjective opinions.
But by and large, no, the term is misused IMO
 
Scintillation is a dance.
Never the exact same twice.
Open to preference and interpretation.
 
No need to fight against the term light performance. BUT a diamond has to be evaluated for light performance against its peers. That is, shape and faceting style. The performance of an olympic diver cannot be evaluated by the same criteria as an olympic swimmer.

And things like dance performances are still "performances" but are much more into the artistic elements which entail more subjectivity on the part of those doing the judging.

It's true that a diamond merchant should be very thoughtful of all the personal factors and tastes that a client brings to the table in order to guide them to a diamond that really suits them and that they will love. And helping them to understand their diamond's unique properties enables the client to fully appreciate owning it.
I disagree Bryan.
A mistake that AGS made - all diamonds should be compared to the market leader.
The Tolkowsky round brilliant cut.
For spread
Fire
light return
scintillation
Whatever
 
I disagree Bryan.
A mistake that AGS made - all diamonds should be compared to the market leader.
The Tolkowsky round brilliant cut.
For spread
Fire
light return
scintillation
Whatever

I very strongly disagree Garry.
The make everything a mrb is destructive and the wrong direction.
Changes in lighting will leave the mrb behind eventually is a part of the reason.
Another is the destruction of diversity for different preferences.
 
I disagree Bryan.
A mistake that AGS made - all diamonds should be compared to the market leader.
The Tolkowsky round brilliant cut.
For spread
Fire
light return
scintillation
Whatever

Ha! When was Tolkowsky ever the market leader! Tell that to the American cutters who were using essentially the same propotioning and trying to get the industry to cut for beauty over weight, well before Tolkowsky wrote his thesis. Until recently that goal has been consistently thwarted by the "market leaders".

But in the information age consumer understanding of cut quality and light performance has proliferated and given new life to those who have struggled to get the industry to adopt a more consumer-centric philosophy. Even GIA was convinced to add a cut grade to their reports, and when they did, cutting improved overnight. At least for rounds.

Maybe now that they have the AGSL tools they will do the same for fancy shapes.
 
Thanks Bryan
I like this analogy and I do agree with you, But a customer won't figure it out by taking a look at vendors' websites or explanations from labs.

do you agree?
Depends on how hard they look.
Today's consumers are self-educating and information hungry. There are vendor websites and laboratory websites providing good info about light performance. But, to your point, it is not as easy to find as it should be.
 
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