Difference between old mine + european cut?

[mrsctobe]

hi guys! please educate me on all the differences between old mine and old european cut “vintage” stones. i don’t own any vintage cut stones and am very interested in an august vintage ring. do the two have differences in sparkliness, fire, how they appear from a distance etc etc? thank you!

 

[ecf8503]

Are you saying you are looking at the branded August Vintage stones? They are not actually antiques, but rather newly cut stones in a vintage style that have been designed for optical excellence. There are natural (mined) and lab-created versions of both the AV Cushion and the AV OEC (Old European Cut). Rhino (Jon) at Distinctive Gems has so many videos on YouTube!

I have had the privilege of owning both, and you really can't go wrong!

 

[mrsctobe]

Are you saying you are looking at the branded August Vintage stones? They are not actually antiques, but rather newly cut stones in a vintage style that have been designed for optical excellence. There are natural (mined) and lab-created versions of both the AV Cushion and the AV OEC (Old European Cut). Rhino (Jon) at Distinctive Gems has so many videos on YouTube!

I have had the privilege of owning both, and you really can't go wrong!

Yes! Sorry vintage style but newly cut. Trying to understand if eoc or omc is more sparkley or has more fire!

 

[Lisa Loves Shiny]

Both types will be bright and amazing. I think the main difference in sparkle is that the cushion AVs will not sparkle as much as the OECs, but will give off bigger flashes of light and color. The facet shapes of both are so interesting when looking into the diamonds. To me, the OMCs have an almost harlequin pattern that is beautiful, while the OECs have flowery, petal shapes.

 

[ecf8503]

I have owned both, and I would say the OEC's are more lively

 

[mrsctobe]

thank you! super helpful. didn’t realize OECs are generally more lively

 

[ecf8503]

thank you! super helpful. didn’t realize OECs are generally more lively

It does depend - my AVC had the large Maltese Cross faces under the table. Big flashes, but fewer of them. It "shimmered" as opposed to sparkled. Real OMC's don't always have that cross, and may be more checkerboard like. On the DG website, there are OEC, Old Mine Brilliant, Transitional, and August Vintage cushions both square and rectangular. I'd spend some time comparing videos and see what speaks to you.

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

This is no different to any modern brilliant cut - there are good and mostly shocking proportions in old mine cut original stones.
OEC tend not to be overly deep and more frequently perform better in brightness.
The large flashes of fire come at a brilliance and dirty diamond cost.

 

[mrsctobe]

This is no different to any modern brilliant cut - there are good and mostly shocking proportions in old mine cut original stones.
OEC tend not to be overly deep and more frequently perform better in brightness.
The large flashes of fire come at a brilliance and dirty diamond cost.

thank you! would you mind explaining what your last sentence means - the cost?

 

[mrsctobe]

It does depend - my AVC had the large Maltese Cross faces under the table. Big flashes, but fewer of them. It "shimmered" as opposed to sparkled. Real OMC's don't always have that cross, and may be more checkerboard like. On the DG website, there are OEC, Old Mine Brilliant, Transitional, and August Vintage cushions both square and rectangular. I'd spend some time comparing videos and see what speaks to you.

thanks! yes i’m still trying to understand the differences between his OEC, old mine brilliant, August vintage cuts etc…

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

thank you! would you mind explaining what your last sentence means - the cost?

There is a trade off between fire and brilliance in any well cut round diamond proportion range.
Tolkowsky supa dupa ideal tight proportions provide a balance between both. Proportions like 36 crown and 40.6 pavilions do a bit more fire and 32 41.2 do more brightness less leakage and more brilliance.
Random totally out of optimal range old cut styles only produce very few very large fire flashes.

 

[headlight]

Hmmm, with all due respect to @Garry H (Cut Nut) - whom I do greatly respect - I had a pair of vintage OECs that did put off large flashes of fire. Small table, high crown…?

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

Hmmm, with all due respect to @Garry H (Cut Nut) - whom I do greatly respect - I had a pair of vintage OECs that did put off large flashes of fire. Small table, high crown…?

The large flashes in OEC come mainly from the very short lower girdle facets which make the cross which is a bit like two bow ties.

 

[ecf8503]

The large flashes in OEC come mainly from the very short lower girdle facets which make the cross which is a bit like two bow ties.

OMC you mean?

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

OMC you mean?

OOPPPS!!
yes
OMC
OEC has shorter lower girdles too but that is one of the main differences.
GIA have a grade naming statement somewhere on their site

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

Here is some info on OEC etc

Describing 58-facet Round Brilliant-Cut Diamonds at GIA | Research & News

Many beautiful older diamonds are cut to different proportions than modern round brilliants, which makes them a challenge to grade according to modern cut conventions. This article describes how the GIA accommodates these historic gems.

www.gia.edu

 

[mrsctobe]

OOPPPS!!
yes
OMC
OEC has shorter lower girdles too but that is one of the main differences.
GIA have a grade naming statement somewhere on their site

thanks garry! do you prefer OEC or OMC? i have a round brilliant and leaning OMC since it’s “different”.

second question - is it true that OMC faces up much smaller than round brilliant? if i wanted the size of a 2ct round brilliant would i get a much larger OMC?

 

[josieKat]

I have a 1.35ct AVC and it is about 6.8x6.2mm while a round would be up over 7mm. Generally yes the face up size will be smaller although with true OMCs I imagine how far off round and how deep they are will come into play.

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

thanks garry! do you prefer OEC or OMC? i have a round brilliant and leaning OMC since it’s “different”. OEC because they work better.
second question - is it true that OMC faces up much smaller than round brilliant? As JK just posted - huge difference. if i wanted the size of a 2ct round brilliant would i get a much larger OMC?

You can have OEC's in modern brilliant proportions but just shorter Lower Girdle facets to beef up the fire. @Karl_K and @diagem can advise

 

[Karl_K]

Any study of old cuts starts here:

American cut--the first 100 years : the evolution of the American cut diamond, 1860-1960 : Gilbertson, Al M. : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

Partial contents: Old World roots of the American cut -- Mechanization, ingenuity, and Henry Dutton Morse -- More innovations and the emergence of optics --...

archive.org

 

[Karl_K]

Something to keep in mind is modern diamond production is almost exclusively(all)* ring targeted.
Back in the day a greater % diamonds were used in necklaces and tiaras than today.
Many truly old stones have a greater reaction to obstruction than modern stones and clones.
Then you have the differences in lighting, which played a huge role in diamond evolution.
If you took a modern ideal cut back in time and used it to replace a cut of its time, it would likely be the one considered to under perform.
What is interesting is the rise of cfl and heavily diffused led lighting to eventually some type of flat panels.
Some day the walls will be made of addressable lighting panels both light pipe and "led"ish maybe plasma.
These will play to the strengths of the older styles vs the modern ideal cut.

The question of which is better omc vs oec vs modern ideal cut vs optimized old cut styles.
The answer is which one do you love the most and what type of lighting do you have?
The best PS answer is a few of each along with some step cuts and colored gemstones!!!!

*off the top of my head I can not think of mass production examples. There are custom cutters producing some.

 

[Dreamer_D]

I don’t think you can/should necessarily try to judge old cuts using the same kind of approach you would use with modern cuts. It will just cause you pain and suffering as it’s like trying to choose an orange based on the ideal qualities of a banana in some ways! Sure there are oranges out there that more closely match the banana template than others. But good luck finding them! Better to learn what a nice orange looks and tastes like, then trusting your own judgement.

If you are a big nerd. The book American Cut that Karl linked is a great read. It will give you lots of abstract knowledge. But nothing beats actually tasting a real orange The best way to learn is to visit a store that specializes in old cuts and view them in person. Antique and vintage stores are good for this. If that’s not possible then find a vendor who knows their stuff and who you trust and let them guide you.

I have made a lot of threads about buying old cuts over the years if you want to check my archive.

 

[Karl_K]

I don’t think you can/should necessarily try to judge old cuts using the same kind of approach you would use with modern cuts. It will just cause you pain and suffering as it’s like trying to choose an orange based on the ideal qualities of a banana in some ways! Sure there are oranges out there that more closely match the banana template than others. But good luck finding them! Better to learn what a nice orange looks and tastes like, then trusting your own judgement.

Love it.
You rock!