Tmissy
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Don't Ask Don' Tell being repealed....
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davi_el_mejor
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Tmissy
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lulu
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Tmissy|1291160511|2783453 said:
Because cutting the baby in half never makes anybody happy. Clinton enacted it in a sad half-assed attempt to mitigate the violently homophobic original policies which made it possible to court-martial soldiers for their orientation, basically legislating that so long as you stayed in the closet, you could take the closet to the front with you.
Needless to say, this didn't make anybody happy. I am so very glad that we're finally moving forward .....
Guilty Pleasure
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Tuckins1
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Imdanny
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Imdanny|1291211629|2784020 said:
Funny you should mention him. I know very little about ancient history. Although history was my original field of study, I never took any classes on ancient history and when I when I was expected to teach the history of ancient Greece and Rome to ninth graders I had to teach myself first! A few weeks ago, however, I picked up a book from my late mother's night table, Thomas Cahill's Desire of the Everlasting Hills. I learned a great deal more than I had had to learn already about Alexander the Great from it! (Of course, being trained as an historian, I am forced to take some of this with a grain of salt unless I check out its veracity!)
I do like discussing history and politics...and it really need not be divisive, Danny! I appreciate other members, like you, sharing their knowledge!
Hugs,
Deb
swimmer
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I served in the IDF just after Israel lifted their ban on gays serving in intelligence and other high security areas. The response was overwhelming relief. To deprive your military of keen minds and bodies because of their sexual orientation is foolish if your military is to be competitive. The officer I directly reported to remains enlisted and is the toughest woman I have ever met. She and her wife are both career officers and you just can't find a more determined, creative, and clever soldier. She diffused situations that really needed her intuition and communication skills. I'm proud to have served with openly gay soldiers and glad as a US citizen that the US is moving towards embracing all members of society in the military.
From what I have read, the overwhelming number of soldiers who were removed from service because of their orientation were in intelligence, medical, or translating positions, those that we need the very most.
If the US is fighting to show the world that we are a country of equality and justice, it is only fitting that our service reflect that reality.
From what I have read, the overwhelming number of soldiers who were removed from service because of their orientation were in intelligence, medical, or translating positions, those that we need the very most.
If the US is fighting to show the world that we are a country of equality and justice, it is only fitting that our service reflect that reality.
Selkie
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I wish somebody would explain why there is such concern over "gradually" repealing the policy. It's like being a little bit pregnant: it can't happen. Either you allow gays or you don't. Either you respect civil rights or you don't. The first Marine to be seriously injured in Iraq (Staff Sgt. Eric Alva was wounded in 2003) is gay; it's not coming as a surprise to anyone that there are already gay and lesbian service members.
Imdanny
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I"ll say upfront that I am a strong advocate of gay rights and think that they deserve to be able to serve in the military like anyone else.
That being said, I have some concerns over their safety. I've talked to a few vets and various military people who mostly enlisted at young ages and went through boot camp etc (i.e. not the officers who come in post college etc). And the environment, while very vastly improved from what it once was, is still very "fraternity" like in that there seems to be a lot of harassment (verbal and physical) in the name of hierarchy and order etc. Guys make fun of each other, get drunk together, and every now and then things get way out of hand and people get badly hurt.
While I'm so happy that the policy is being repealed, I am honestly concerned over safety issues. It would be such a shame for the military to officially endorse fairness, but then not enforce it and let those who do come of the closet face harassment and possibly physical harm. It wasn't so long since I was in high school, and I remember all the harassment that occurred. I'm genuinely concerned for those openly gay soldiers who are in vulnerable positions in the military. I feel like if they report harassment to their superiors, they may just be told to "suck it up or just leave", and in that way be pressured into leaving the military.
Am I just being cynical in my concern?
That being said, I have some concerns over their safety. I've talked to a few vets and various military people who mostly enlisted at young ages and went through boot camp etc (i.e. not the officers who come in post college etc). And the environment, while very vastly improved from what it once was, is still very "fraternity" like in that there seems to be a lot of harassment (verbal and physical) in the name of hierarchy and order etc. Guys make fun of each other, get drunk together, and every now and then things get way out of hand and people get badly hurt.
While I'm so happy that the policy is being repealed, I am honestly concerned over safety issues. It would be such a shame for the military to officially endorse fairness, but then not enforce it and let those who do come of the closet face harassment and possibly physical harm. It wasn't so long since I was in high school, and I remember all the harassment that occurred. I'm genuinely concerned for those openly gay soldiers who are in vulnerable positions in the military. I feel like if they report harassment to their superiors, they may just be told to "suck it up or just leave", and in that way be pressured into leaving the military.
Am I just being cynical in my concern?
y2kitty
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MakingTheGrade|1291238035|2784403 said:I"ll say upfront that I am a strong advocate of gay rights and think that they deserve to be able to serve in the military like anyone else.
That being said, I have some concerns over their safety. I've talked to a few vets and various military people who mostly enlisted at young ages and went through boot camp etc (i.e. not the officers who come in post college etc). And the environment, while very vastly improved from what it once was, is still very "fraternity" like in that there seems to be a lot of harassment (verbal and physical) in the name of hierarchy and order etc. Guys make fun of each other, get drunk together, and every now and then things get way out of hand and people get badly hurt.
While I'm so happy that the policy is being repealed, I am honestly concerned over safety issues. It would be such a shame for the military to officially endorse fairness, but then not enforce it and let those who do come of the closet face harassment and possibly physical harm. It wasn't so long since I was in high school, and I remember all the harassment that occurred. I'm genuinely concerned for those openly gay soldiers who are in vulnerable positions in the military. I feel like if they report harassment to their superiors, they may just be told to "suck it up or just leave", and in that way be pressured into leaving the military.
Am I just being cynical in my concern?
No, you're not at all, and without specific non-discrimination policies (something they're not planning to have), I think there is going to be discrimination.
fwiw, I don't think they're repealing it now, or voting on it now. My understanding is this hasn't happened and might not.
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I'm gay and went through boot camp in the mid 70s when attitudes were even more polarized than they are now.
I had no problem realizing I had to behave a certain way to blend in.
Straight guys had to behave a certain way to blend in too.
Boot camp is about stripping away your individuality and conforming anyway.
Not swishing around in stilettos and a boa was not that hard to figure out.
I had no problem realizing I had to behave a certain way to blend in.
Straight guys had to behave a certain way to blend in too.
Boot camp is about stripping away your individuality and conforming anyway.
Not swishing around in stilettos and a boa was not that hard to figure out.
zoebartlett
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I have several issues with this policy, but my real issue is that "don't ask don't tell" is only part of the story. Before the last year, if you were accidentally found out, the military would investigate you and discharge you, even if you were trying to live your life in the closet.
I know a handful of gay people who are serving or retired in the military. They basically had to pretend their SO did not exist. If a service member gets promoted, their spouse usually pens them. But if you are gay in the military, you SO cannot even come and see that ceremony in person. Because of the frequent moves, the military has lots of social event where spouses/families are invited. The gay/lesbian member with a partner always has to go to those events alone. I knew one high ranking officer (who is now retired and open about his relationship), who always lived in fear that someone would have a problem with his work decisions and take revenge by reporting his sexual orientation. I don't think someone should have to go to work with that fear.
I know a handful of gay people who are serving or retired in the military. They basically had to pretend their SO did not exist. If a service member gets promoted, their spouse usually pens them. But if you are gay in the military, you SO cannot even come and see that ceremony in person. Because of the frequent moves, the military has lots of social event where spouses/families are invited. The gay/lesbian member with a partner always has to go to those events alone. I knew one high ranking officer (who is now retired and open about his relationship), who always lived in fear that someone would have a problem with his work decisions and take revenge by reporting his sexual orientation. I don't think someone should have to go to work with that fear.
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"Breaking News Alert
The New York Times
Thu, December 09, 2010 -- 4:13 PM ET
Defense Bill With 'Don't Ask, Don't Tell' Repeal Falls Short in Senate"
OH, FOR CRYING OUT LOUD!
How can so many senators be such a bunch of big babies?
THE MILITARY wants it repealed, for God's sake!
Just when I think we're making progress, and everyone will finally focus on what makes us all the same, they pull this kind of thing.
Well, Congress never did actually pass the ERA, so what can you expect, really? I'm still steamed at them about that!
Buffoons . . .
The New York Times
Thu, December 09, 2010 -- 4:13 PM ET
Defense Bill With 'Don't Ask, Don't Tell' Repeal Falls Short in Senate"
OH, FOR CRYING OUT LOUD!
How can so many senators be such a bunch of big babies?
THE MILITARY wants it repealed, for God's sake!
Just when I think we're making progress, and everyone will finally focus on what makes us all the same, they pull this kind of thing.
Well, Congress never did actually pass the ERA, so what can you expect, really? I'm still steamed at them about that!
Buffoons . . .
Tuckins1
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iLander|1291986702|2793081 said:"Breaking News Alert
The New York Times
Thu, December 09, 2010 -- 4:13 PM ET
Defense Bill With 'Don't Ask, Don't Tell' Repeal Falls Short in Senate"
OH, FOR CRYING OUT LOUD!
How can so many senators be such a bunch of big babies?
THE MILITARY wants it repealed, for God's sake!
Just when I think we're making progress, and everyone will finally focus on what makes us all the same, they pull this kind of thing.
Well, Congress never did actually pass the ERA, so what can you expect, really? I'm still steamed at them about that!
Buffoons . . .
This country is so back asswards! Seriously, this is a serious issue?!? We "need" this law? For goondess sake, don't we have better things to worry about than "gays" in the military!?! If they want to put their lives on the line- let them!!!!!! Who cares who they like to look at naked?
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