Down the rabbit hole... help me be realistic

[diamonddaddy]

Hi all,

First time caller here.

To put it bluntly, I have done hours upon hours of research about RBC (round cut brilliant diamonds) as I am searching for a stone for my future fiancée.

I work with numbers all day in my job and naturally, I find comfort in them albeit know their limitations when it comes to the GIA reports.

From browsing Reddit, this forum, multiple websites, the JANNPAUL YouTube channel education videos and then building a spreadsheet to rank diamonds, I have gone quite deep in my search.

My goal is simple: Find the sparkliest (balance of fiery and bright) diamond with the highest carat weight within my budget ($19.5k AUD stone only).

The main reason I have done all of this is because many jewellers in AU who are 'wholesalers' don't carry physical stock and instead turn to their computer and show you stones they can order in for you.

I am now at the point where I may be overdoing it with respect to how 'strict' I am being with the parameters that I have set out.

For context, these are a mix of the member recommended proportions from Pricescope and the AGS 'Bullseye' proportions from the Whiteflash website.

Min H colour, SI1, Triple Ex	Lower	Upper	Desired	GIA Rounding
Table (%)	53%	58%		1%​
Depth (%)	59.50%	62%		0.01%​
Pavillion (deg)	40.5	41	40.8	0.2
Crown (deg)	34	35	34.5	0.5
Lower Halves	75%	80%		5%​

The questions I have are the following:
1. I am aware that even if a diamond meets all of these that it is not guaranteed to sparkle however, do these proportions at least somewhat guarantee a higher chance of a diamond sparkling more, than a diamond outside of these?

2. Would requiring jewellers strictly stick to these proportions be too limiting, and could I be missing perfectly sparkling diamonds outside of these parameters? (assuming some leeway for GIA rounding)

3. I have noticed some diamonds outside of these parameters, still show a nice 8-pointed contrast star in the middle, is this any indication (without looking at the GIA cert) that the diamond already has good proportions and would have good scintillation and brightness?

4. The three jewellers I have requested to find stones for me generally provide a 360 video, sometimes H&A as well as GIA cert and inclusion plot - if I were to buy a stone this way and and ASET scope was not available, would you pass on the stone and find one with a scope image, or use other means to verify?

Thank you all and please be as frank as possible should my requirements be 'overcooking it'.

 

[MissGotRocks]

You are not overthinking it if you want the attributes of a super ideal cut stone. Buying one that might be a bit lacking could be ok, but if you are that analytical, you would always be second guessing it.
Numbers are reliable but images tell the complete story. Why not just select a diamond from Whiteflash or Jann Paul and call it a day? Learning nuances of diamonds can take a long time - many of us have been around a long time and are still learning. Many have come here thinking they can game the system by finding a less expensive stone on their own with great super ideal proportions. Doesn’t work out that way. If you don’t need the super ideal cut performance, you could be open to other diamonds. I just don’t get that vibe from your post. You asked for frankness; there it is. The choice is yours of course. These super ideal cut vendors ship overseas as well so no need to limit yourself to just local jewelers. Just be wary though - often times if the locals don’t have or can’t access what you want - they try to claim that none of that matters. It matters!

 

[Dreamer_D]

Your approach will lead to a sparkly diamond. But if you desire to know you have a super ideal cut then I think it will be a painful and frustrating process for a diamond newcomer without the guidance of a similarly cut obsessed vendor.

 

[0-0-0]

I think comparing actual stones in person is necessary to see if any of the details matter to you/your partner and whether you are overdoing it. If I’m starting over as a diamond newbie right now, I would order the cheapest branded lab grown H&A from BG/WF and a matching IGI designated lab grown H&A from virtual inventory (perhaps with help from the lab forum) to compare in person. This should give a pair of well cut H&A to compare in the 0.7 ct range for around 1k usd. They can be used for a pair of earrings should you decide to keep them. This would settle the question of whether the precision of super ideal cuts matter for your purposes for a relatively low cost.

 

[diamonddaddy]

Your approach will lead to a sparkly diamond. But if you desire to know you have a super ideal cut then I think it will be a painful and frustrating process for a diamond newcomer without the guidance of a similarly cut obsessed vendor.

This is what I have found, as when I approached jewellers and were quite forward with them when saying "I want a diamond with these proportions based on some research I have done" a lot of them would say "yeah but if you buy a GIA Triple Ex it'll be fine, the numbers matter less than you think".

Cue me watching YouTube videos of examples with diamonds in the GIA Triple Ex range versus those that simply have the proportions I have specified, and there is an obvious difference i.e fisheye / nail head through the table and lack of brightness when comparing.

Which has made me doubt what jewellers have told me to my face, and naturally I don't like to be "well you're wrong" to someone who has been in the business for years because they're far more experienced than I am. However, I do potentially believe that most customers are less informed or just less picky than I am and will take what the jeweller offers at whatever price, as long as it is within budget.

I'm not necessarily aiming for a 'super ideal cut' i.e your typical WF' - ultimately I just want a diamond within those proportions to avoid the chances of leakages, the H&A doesn't have to be to the micrometer perfect.

 

[MissGotRocks]

This is what I have found, as when I approached jewellers and were quite forward with them when saying "I want a diamond with these proportions based on some research I have done" a lot of them would say "yeah but if you buy a GIA Triple Ex it'll be fine, the numbers matter less than you think".

Cue me watching YouTube videos of examples with diamonds in the GIA Triple Ex range versus those that simply have the proportions I have specified, and there is an obvious difference i.e fisheye / nail head through the table and lack of brightness when comparing.

Which has made me doubt what jewellers have told me to my face, and naturally I don't like to be "well you're wrong" to someone who has been in the business for years because they're far more experienced than I am. However, I do potentially believe that most customers are less informed or just less picky than I am and will take what the jeweller offers at whatever price, as long as it is within budget.

I'm not necessarily aiming for a 'super ideal cut' i.e your typical WF' - ultimately I just want a diamond within those proportions to avoid the chances of leakages, the H&A doesn't have to be to the micrometer perfect.

That’s what jewelers do that don’t have what you are looking for - they just tell you that it doesn’t matter. How do you trust someone to sell you something great when they are telling you that what you have seen with your own eyes doesn’t matter? Many have experience selling diamonds but not experience with very well cut diamonds. Lack of leakage is important but so is pavilion twist, certain inclusions, etc. Diamonds can exhibit hearts and arrow images and still have light leakage. One isn’t necessarily exclusive of the other. You are correct too in that many customers don’t know exactly what to look for - many come here after purchase looking for validation. Always check before you buy to avoid disappointment. Your column of numbers with a 58 table, 35 crown and 41 pavilion angle will be what is called a steep, deep diamond and will very probably have light leakage. The angles have to play well together in order to avoid leakage. You just can’t over generalize the numbers to come up with a winning combo. Go the Whiteflash website and read about their testing and selection of diamonds. There is a lot of information there that can be helpful. If you find a diamond they you would like to consider, post the GIA cert and video image and folks here will be happy to give you their opinion. Check any jewelers upgrade and return policies as well.
What size, color and clarity are you interested in for your diamond purchase?

 

[diamonddaddy]

That’s what jewelers do that don’t have what you are looking for - they just tell you that it doesn’t matter. How do you trust someone to sell you something great when they are telling you that what you have seen with your own eyes doesn’t matter? Many have experience selling diamonds but not experience with very well cut diamonds. Lack of leakage is important but so is pavilion twist, certain inclusions, etc. Diamonds can exhibit hearts and arrow images and still have light leakage. One isn’t necessarily exclusive of the other. You are correct too in that many customers don’t know exactly what to look for - many come here after purchase looking for validation. Always check before you buy to avoid disappointment. Your column of numbers with a 58 table, 35 crown and 41 pavilion angle will be what is called a steep, deep diamond and will very probably have light leakage. The angles have to play well together in order to avoid leakage. You just can’t over generalize the numbers to come up with a winning combo. Go the Whiteflash website and read about their testing and selection of diamonds. There is a lot of information there that can be helpful. If you find a diamond they you would like to consider, post the GIA cert and video image and folks here will be happy to give you their opinion. Check any jewelers upgrade and return policies as well.
What size, color and clarity are you interested in for your diamond purchase?

Thank you for your note re steep / deep - this is another thing I wasn't entirely sure about (steep deep specific angle combos)

And I will take a larger look at the Whiteflash website to get a better idea for sure.

This is an example using the filtering as per my requirements:

Price and quality scores for GIA Number 2497487067

View the fair price estimate, Cut Score® and price history for GIA Certified Diamond 2497487067. Everything you need to know to buy this diamond.

www.stonealgo.com

Just looking at the 360 video via: https://certifiedstone.info/v360/Vision360.html?d=LD24055378

The arrows show up on the face albeit not all points, which I assume is to do with 35.5 crown angle however, depth, pav, symmetry, LW ratio all seem to stack up.

Will appreciate your thoughts

 

[TXwidow]

here are some slightly smaller (but much better "cut") https://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut?carat=1.53,1.8&color=G,I&price=8248,16630

 

[Dreamer_D]

This is what I have found, as when I approached jewellers and were quite forward with them when saying "I want a diamond with these proportions based on some research I have done" a lot of them would say "yeah but if you buy a GIA Triple Ex it'll be fine, the numbers matter less than you think".

Cue me watching YouTube videos of examples with diamonds in the GIA Triple Ex range versus those that simply have the proportions I have specified, and there is an obvious difference i.e fisheye / nail head through the table and lack of brightness when comparing.

Which has made me doubt what jewellers have told me to my face, and naturally I don't like to be "well you're wrong" to someone who has been in the business for years because they're far more experienced than I am. However, I do potentially believe that most customers are less informed or just less picky than I am and will take what the jeweller offers at whatever price, as long as it is within budget.

I'm not necessarily aiming for a 'super ideal cut' i.e your typical WF' - ultimately I just want a diamond within those proportions to avoid the chances of leakages, the H&A doesn't have to be to the micrometer perfect.

You sound like a true pricescoper. We’ve all had that experience with local Jewelers.

 

[diamonddaddy]

You sound like a true pricescoper. We’ve all had that experience with local Jewelers.

It is a bit frustrating, and I know that yes you can get diamonds that still sparkle outside of those dimensions, but realistically when you're effectively buying off a 360 video and GIA cert at a physical jeweller, it's a bit scary if the diamond arrives and its dull despite being 'Triple Ex'

 

[MissGotRocks]

Thank you for your note re steep / deep - this is another thing I wasn't entirely sure about (steep deep specific angle combos)

And I will take a larger look at the Whiteflash website to get a better idea for sure.

This is an example using the filtering as per my requirements:

Price and quality scores for GIA Number 2497487067

View the fair price estimate, Cut Score® and price history for GIA Certified Diamond 2497487067. Everything you need to know to buy this diamond.

www.stonealgo.com

Just looking at the 360 video via: https://certifiedstone.info/v360/Vision360.html?d=LD24055378

The arrows show up on the face albeit not all points, which I assume is to do with 35.5 crown angle however, depth, pav, symmetry, LW ratio all seem to stack up.

Will appreciate your thoughts

That diamond is more of a 60/60 style diamond meaning the table and depth are very close in size and close to 60. Not an ideal cut diamond but rather cut more for brightness than depth. With a crown angle of 35.5, you would expect a much higher crown % than 14.5. The very large table cuts that crown percentage so you have a flat top diamond that shows more brillance than fire. Not a diamond I would recommend.

This diamond is probably more representative of size, color and clarity within your stated budget when paid by wire transfer. Click on the videos and watch the sparkle and brilliance videos. You will see both brightness and fire!https://www.whiteflash.com/loose-di...-vs2-clarity-round-excellent-cut-sku-a4691038

 

[diamonddaddy]

That diamond is more of a 60/60 style diamond meaning the table and depth are very close in size and close to 60. Not an ideal cut diamond but rather cut more for brightness than depth. With a crown angle of 35.5, you would expect a much higher crown % than 14.5. The very large table cuts that crown percentage so you have a flat top diamond that shows more brillance than fire. Not a diamond I would recommend.

This diamond is probably more representative of size, color and clarity within your stated budget when paid by wire transfer. Click on the videos and watch the sparkle and brilliance videos. You will see both brightness and fire!https://www.whiteflash.com/loose-di...-vs2-clarity-round-excellent-cut-sku-a4691038

This is really valuable information, thank you and appreciate the Whiteflash link. I have looked on their site and I'd be an ideal customer given my requirements, the only issue is that setting + purchasing the stone would be an ordeal as not many local jewellers set external stones hence why I am trying to search locally from a jeweller that can pick from global inventory. I know I won't get perfect Whiteflash specs, but close enough or reasonable enough I am happy with.

From your experience, are there any ideal CA/PA pairings you aim for? I know some people can look at a cert and ascertain whether it is a diamond they want to look at further just based on the numbers - what are those numbers for you? (knowing they don't tell the whole story).

Also, would you mind passing your opinion on the following stones? These are ones I have picked which fall within the ranges I had set above, albeit I am not certain whether the pairings for CA/PA/Table/Depth are appropriate:

1. GIA: 2484705706, Video: https://certifiedstone.info/v360/Vision360.html?d=LD24025965 (1.61ct)

2. GIA: 7492508339 Video: https://certifiedstone.info/v360/Vision360.html?d=LD24056029 (1.71ct)

3. GIA: 7496782627 Video: None available.

3. GIA Cert + Video: https://pck.blob.core.windows.net/i...81211&showMediaType=Image&mediaKey=QX99JES0BU

4. (This one was suggested by jeweller off the cuff without my measurements, solely with budget) GIA Cert + Video: https://pck.blob.core.windows.net/i...588F6F84&showMediaType=HA&mediaKey=QX99JES0BU

 

[MissGotRocks]

This is really valuable information, thank you and appreciate the Whiteflash link. I have looked on their site and I'd be an ideal customer given my requirements, the only issue is that setting + purchasing the stone would be an ordeal as not many local jewellers set external stones hence why I am trying to search locally from a jeweller that can pick from global inventory. I know I won't get perfect Whiteflash specs, but close enough or reasonable enough I am happy with.

From your experience, are there any ideal CA/PA pairings you aim for? I know some people can look at a cert and ascertain whether it is a diamond they want to look at further just based on the numbers - what are those numbers for you? (knowing they don't tell the whole story).

Also, would you mind passing your opinion on the following stones? These are ones I have picked which fall within the ranges I had set above, albeit I am not certain whether the pairings for CA/PA/Table/Depth are appropriate:

1. GIA: 2484705706, Video: https://certifiedstone.info/v360/Vision360.html?d=LD24025965 (1.61ct)

2. GIA: 7492508339 Video: https://certifiedstone.info/v360/Vision360.html?d=LD24056029 (1.71ct)

3. GIA: 7496782627 Video: None available.

3. GIA Cert + Video: https://pck.blob.core.windows.net/i...81211&showMediaType=Image&mediaKey=QX99JES0BU

4. (This one was suggested by jeweller off the cuff without my measurements, solely with budget) GIA Cert + Video: https://pck.blob.core.windows.net/i...588F6F84&showMediaType=HA&mediaKey=QX99JES0BU

You could buy the diamond and have it set at Whiteflash before shipping. If you choose not to buy from them that's fine, but there really is no reason not to.
I don't see the GIA certs in the videos you have included? I didn't see any info on color or clarity either. Those are details that you would need to decided about too before trying to choose a diamond.
Hard to give you a specific set of specs. Initially, I would be looking for 55-56 table, 34.5/35.0 crown and 40.7-40.8 pavilion. However, again, how they all play together makes all the difference. Remember that GIA rounds their numbers so they are not always accurate either. That's why I prefer buying from a company that can assess the diamond individually. If the diamonds are certed by GIA today, and meet the AGS standard for AGS0 cut grade, you would receive a AGS certificate too. AGS assesses light performance. I suspect you are just playing hit or miss with diamond suggestions from your vendors? It is just such a difficult task to buy that way when there are better alternatives. I understand that you want the biggest, brightest, most firey diamond for your money. I also understand that your choices are limited by the jewelers you are visiting. That's why we see so many overseas buyers here as it is a better spend of your hard earned dollars.

 

[diamonddaddy]

You could buy the diamond and have it set at Whiteflash before shipping. If you choose not to buy from them that's fine, but there really is no reason not to.
I don't see the GIA certs in the videos you have included? I didn't see any info on color or clarity either. Those are details that you would need to decided about too before trying to choose a diamond.
Hard to give you a specific set of specs. Initially, I would be looking for 55-56 table, 34.5/35.0 crown and 40.7-40.8 pavilion. However, again, how they all play together makes all the difference. Remember that GIA rounds their numbers so they are not always accurate either. That's why I prefer buying from a company that can assess the diamond individually. If the diamonds are certed by GIA today, and meet the AGS standard for AGS0 cut grade, you would receive a AGS certificate too. AGS assesses light performance. I suspect you are just playing hit or miss with diamond suggestions from your vendors? It is just such a difficult task to buy that way when there are better alternatives. I understand that you want the biggest, brightest, most firey diamond for your money. I also understand that your choices are limited by the jewelers you are visiting. That's why we see so many overseas buyers here as it is a better spend of your hard earned dollars.

I do agree re Whiteflash, I guess the other part of the cost is simply import duty which adds another 5% on top of the 10% sales tax charged for AU.

I think if my jewellers can't give me at least reasonably viable options I'll be forced to consider offshore but for now I'm at least relying on the numbers which I know are rounded, to then filter out stones and hope the jeweller can get me ASET imaging or H&A


My apologies re the links, have adjusted

Option 1 appears to be no longer available.

Option 2: https://www.gia.edu/report-check?reportno=7492508339

Option 3: https://www.gia.edu/report-check?reportno=7496782627

The other links contain a button which has certificate + H&A.

Option 4: attached, 1.52 (having looked at proportions I suspect this one is 'the' pic but happy for further guidance on this.

Option 5: as below

 

[freddyboston]

i would pass on #3 for the clarity comment. You don't want see that in an Si,,,,Notice it's "camera shy" w/no photos ~ most likey hazy/cloudy stone.

 

[pancake]

This is what I have found, as when I approached jewellers and were quite forward with them when saying "I want a diamond with these proportions based on some research I have done" a lot of them would say "yeah but if you buy a GIA Triple Ex it'll be fine, the numbers matter less than you think".

Cue me watching YouTube videos of examples with diamonds in the GIA Triple Ex range versus those that simply have the proportions I have specified, and there is an obvious difference i.e fisheye / nail head through the table and lack of brightness when comparing.

Hi there, I'm in Melbourne and can vouch for this experience many times over. I get deeply down rabbitholes and am highly technical/analytical/detail driven about these things. I have rarely met a local jeweller in person who will engage with me about this stuff. I have sometimes wondered whether it's because they don't know, or whether they just don't know what to do with a customer like this? In any case, perhaps the most telling thing is that every single one of my purchases has been from overseas vendors. The only thing I have done locally is the setting for my engagement ring many years ago (Holloway Diamonds did this for me, mind!) after I sourced the stone myself.

I think the easiest option will be to go with a super cut-focused vendor as above, or to get one of the RB sharks (I mean this in the best way possible!) to find you a stone from virtual inventory.

NB source it overseas. The mark-up in Australia is insane.

 

[TXwidow]

you mentioned the 'added' costs' I am in Texas, as is both Whiteflash and Brian Gavin. If I purchase anything from either of them I pay 8.25% sale tax (even though both their 'stores' are less than 100 miles away from me. That would NOT deter me from purchasing anything from either of them.

 

[TXwidow]

Hi there, I'm in Melbourne and can vouch for this experience many times over. I get deeply down rabbitholes and am highly technical/analytical/detail driven about these things. I have rarely met a local jeweller in person who will engage with me about this stuff. I have sometimes wondered whether it's because they don't know, or whether they just don't know what to do with a customer like this? In any case, perhaps the most telling thing is that every single one of my purchases has been from overseas vendors. The only thing I have done locally is the setting for my engagement ring many years ago (Holloway Diamonds did this for me, mind!) after I sourced the stone myself.

I think the easiest option will be to go with a super cut-focused vendor as above, or to get one of the RB sharks (I mean this in the best way possible!) to find you a stone from virtual inventory.

NB source it overseas. The mark-up in Australia is insane.

Gary Holloway is in Australia and would be someone to contact. As a 'trade' member he is limited in what he is allowed to post in these 'looking for a diamond' posts.