Ebay's neutrality under pressure

[Edward Bristol]

Tiffany has sued Ebay for willingly (all eyes closed) profiting from counterfeiting and trademark infringements.

So far it looks as if Tiffany has done its homework and Ebay’s business model of a ‘neutral’ market organizer is jeopardized, and right so, I think.

In a specific case they tracked down a ring of companies in the same street on Rhode Island who give each other positive feedbacks to maintain credibility for the faked jewelry they source together.

Though exposed, Ebay did not do anything against them.

Tiffany says out of the 200 items they bought under cover 150 were faked. 75%!
How high is that number in the gemstone section?

Of course, we know gemstones are even more difficult to judge than jewelry and they have no trademarks, and no doubt, we also know that many honest people sell on Ebay but in the big picture, the majority of stones sold (not offered) on Ebay smell bad.

The cheer volumes make the business: A lot of small but unhappy clients can be perfect profitable.
Return policies? Yes, sure, but who sends a stone back that he bought for $20, when the reenlisting fee is $10 and the transport $5, plus the bother to pack and go to the post etc.? However these people are mostly not sure whether what they got is real or not.

At the end of the day, these buyers are frustrated and turn away from stones on the web.

I hope Tiffany is getting through and Ebay will at least have to take complains more seriously.

Ebay argues that they are not specialists in any product categories but only a ‘neutral’ website specialist. Yes, true, but they could have definitely afforded someone with know-how who once in while checks out the obvious questionable offers, but instead they even simply ignoring complains of cheated buyers.

The point is they didn’t want to, because they care more about the seller than the buyer.

And that is not neutral at all!

Edward Bristol
www.wildfishgems.com

 

[PrecisionGem]

Nice post Ed, very true.
One of my wife''s friends is a big time ebay jewelry buyer. She thinks she is buying pieces worth $100''s and only paying $30 or so, what she is getting for the most part is pure junk. There are so many man made stones being sold even in brick and mortar jewelry stores, and the jewelers don''t even know it thay are fake, just image the deception on ebay!

 

[valeria101]

And it could be so good! Gems on the web...

Maybe one day.

You may find this intriguing - about how much is trust worth (on the cheap end)

 

[DiamondExpert]

This may be the first real crack in what could be a house of cards if the legal profession can find general issues of liability...the piranhas may smell blood...they love class action.

 

[aljdewey]

Date: 1/30/2006 9:30:13 PM
Author:Edward Bristol

In a specific case they tracked down a ring of companies in the same street on Rhode Island who give each other positive feedbacks to maintain credibility for the faked jewelry they source together.

Though exposed, Ebay did not do anything against them.

I agree this is wrong, and I think that ebay should remove them simply for manipulating the feedback system. I can see where eBay cannot assume responsibility for the authenticity of goods, but they *can* assume responsibility for fraudulent use of their feedback system.

Date: 1/30/2006 9:30:13 PM
Author:Edward Bristol

Return policies? Yes, sure, but who sends a stone back that he bought for $20, when the reenlisting fee is $10 and the transport $5, plus the bother to pack and go to the post etc.? However these people are mostly not sure whether what they got is real or not.

Ed.......c''mon. Really? You think anyone paying $20 for a Tiffany stone reeeeeeeeeeally thinks it''s real? If he does, he''s likely getting fleeced by more than just eBay.

Date: 1/30/2006 9:30:13 PM
Author:Edward Bristol

At the end of the day, these buyers are frustrated and turn away from stones on the web.

Perhaps so.....but I''d suggest that if customers'' perceive everything on the web to be equivalent to eBay, then other web-based companies haven''t done a solid enough job educating potential customers about why they are different.

Date: 1/30/2006 9:30:13 PM
Author:Edward Bristol

Ebay argues that they are not specialists in any product categories but only a ‘neutral’ website specialist. Yes, true, but they could have definitely afforded someone with know-how who once in while checks out the obvious questionable offers, but instead they even simply ignoring complains of cheated buyers.

The point is they didn’t want to, because they care more about the seller than the buyer.

I just don''t agree with this. It''s not eBay''s job to force common sense on someone who has otherwise abandoned it. At the end of the day, it''s up to the consumer to be smart about purchases....caveat emptor. Whether or not they can afford to is really irrelevant; it''s not their job to save someone from their own poor judgment or risk-taking.

eBay is a giant flea market. What''s offered there may be a great deal, or it may be junk. It''s up to the consumer to do their own diligence and buy responsibly.

 

[Richard M.]

Date: 1/31/2006 9:24:10 AM
Author: aljdewey
It''s not eBay''s job to force common sense on someone who has otherwise abandoned it. At the end of the day, it''s up to the consumer to be smart about purchases....caveat emptor. Whether or not they can afford to is really irrelevant; it''s not their job to save someone from their own poor judgment or risk-taking.

Egads! If they crack down on EBay for allowing fraudulent ads, what''s next -- the TV networks and political advertising?

A little knowledge can be a very dangerous thing whether in regard to politicians or gem purchases. I agree generally with aljdewey that it''s up to consumers inform themselves and perform due diligence. Usually a con job has two willing participants: the con artist and a buyer who thinks they''re about to ''steal'' something by getting the best of an expert. That happens about as often as pigs are seen soaring with the eagles.

Like people who buy used cars through newspaper classified ads, EBay gem shoppers should be aware of little clues. Cars sold "as is" send up a warning flare, as does reluctance to let a 3rd party mechanic have a look before purchase. So do gems sold without a reasonable return option or a with a restocking fee, or with the promise of getting much greater value than the price indicates. Shoppers should also learn to read critically and carefully. One of my favorite exercises is reading EBay ads touting low-priced "black opals" and seeing how long it takes to find the word "doublet" or "triplet" in the sea of fine print. There''s nothing wrong with either one but they''re not "black opal" and sell for a lot less.

Richard M.

 

[Edward Bristol]

I totally agree that Ebay can’t be held responsible for every deal that is done on their site.

And I also agree that there are borderlines of buyer stupidity that can’t be helped.

But we also all know that buying a gemstone is probably the most complicated of all purchases even in a real shop. And online you say: “Hey, that’s a buyer decision. We can’t help.”?

I don’t think it does any good to leave these yet unexperienced buyers unprotected into a professional shark fish pond and see who survives (no surprises there).

I feel that this is why gem dealers in the movies always come together with drug- and weapon dealers (and the audience is not surprised either).

Edward Bristol
www.wildfishgems.com

 

[open culet]

On Tiffany and eBay: I deplore fakes and knock-offs, but I like the eBay concept and it is not possible to control what is going on without a negative impact on eBay.

I do have a comment on Tiffany. I think that the Tiffany name has become, to many, associated with mainly cheap, sterling jewelry, rather than true fine jewelry. This sterling jewelry that Tiffany sells tons of is not really jewelry, just an affordable way to buy something at this famous store, and walk out with a blue bag. Silver is cheap and these designs are easy to knock off. I don''t mean to imply that Tiffany deserves what is happening. Just an observation.

 

[aljdewey]

Date: 1/31/2006 7:53:29 PM
Author: Edward Bristol

But we also all know that buying a gemstone is probably the most complicated of all purchases even in a real shop. And online you say: “Hey, that’s a buyer decision. We can’t help.”?

I don’t think it does any good to leave these yet unexperienced buyers unprotected into a professional shark fish pond and see who survives (no surprises there).

Well, that''s an interesting perspective, Ed, but here''s the problem: the "unprotected, unexperienced buyers" are the ones who are SO arrogant that they REALLY BELIEVE they are going to get the deal of century......despite the fact that they know NOTHING about the product.

If the "professional shark fish pond" was the ONLY place to buy gemstones, then I''d be more empathetic. But there ARE reputable places to buy jewelery, and the poor little consumers KNOW of their existence. They choose not to go there because they realize they can''t get something for nothing from them.

I''m sorry, but a novice trying to scour the offerings of eBay hoping to get a phenominal deal is just a poor idea, period....but you can''t tell them that. There have been at least two dozen folks here over my 3 years here who come asking about eBay and get all the cautionary "it''s a shark tank", buyer beware, and "do you reeeeeeeeeeally think you''re gonna find a decent stone there" admonitions.....which they willfully ignore.

There are folks who know their stuff, and *those* folks are possibly likely to get a passable (not OUTRAGEOUS) deal on eBay. The rest? No. And if they think otherwise, they are probably also the same type who think that merely donning a pair of mechanic''s overalls qualifies them to work in a pit-crew.

 

[AGBF]

Edward, I am not sure why you chose to post this in Colored Gems, but I am glad that I saw it. When, "The New York Times" did a front page article on the subject a few days ago, I started a thread in Hangout. As you can see, in this thread eBay got far more sympathy from Pricescopers than either eBay buyers or people whose goods were copied and then sold on eBay! I do not know why. I think because Pricescopers resent ignorant consumers.

I feel that consumers will do better if they are aware (in any venue), but that it is unconscionable for eBay to profit from fraud that has been pointed out to them!

Here is a link to the thread I started.

eBay Thread in Hangout

Deborah

 

[movie zombie]

i''m really torn on this issue:

1-eBay is a giant flea market and, as always, let the buyer beware.
2-but at a flea market, i see the item, pick it up, examine it, and then walk away if i want: let the buyer beware in action, if you will.

movie zombie

 

[valeria101]

Date: 2/1/2006 2:37:12 PM
Author: movie zombie

2-but at a flea market, i see the item, pick it up, examine it, and then walk away if i want: let the buyer beware in action, if you will.

This would amount to Ebay imposing a standard return policy from all sellers... intriguing...

I am with you that online presentation of many things falls short of hands-on, but also, non-virtual flea markets are not foolproof just because buyers get to see what they buy literally. After all, one just sees what they know to look for. With precious stones, seeing the object in person doesn''t help all that much. Maybe it makes it clear whether one likes the goods or not, but it doesnt help with pricing and identification. [ PS: This is why AGS''s offer seemed such good news.]

Now, what a flea market does and Ebay doesn''t - is look like a flea market. Flea markets may be more well known to be a not-so-safe bet place to shop, while Ebay may not have acquired the same reputation yet. If this is found to be true - it may amount to some (in)voluntary misleading about the service provided... However, Ebay has been around for a while, and it seems to me that it is still down to buyers suffering from chronic wishful thinking to get precisely what they are looking for.

I don''t think Ebay can institute any kind of certification or policing without defeating its purpose. I am surprised that certification services are not more in demand... What do you think?

My 2c

 

[Richard M.]

Date: 1/31/2006 7:53:29 PM
Author: Edward Bristol
I don’t think it does any good to leave these yet unexperienced buyers unprotected into a professional shark fish pond and see who survives (no surprises there).
I feel that this is why gem dealers in the movies always come together with drug- and weapon dealers (and the audience is not surprised either).

Okay Edward, just how far does a buyer''s own responsibility go?

One of the gem publications I receive tells the tale of a tourist in Thailand who wanted to save a lot of money by buying a sapphire ''at the source.'' She found a beautiful blue stone with the appearance of fine Ceylon sapphire. The Thai jeweler (as truthfully as I think his limited English skills would allow) told her it was a "flame sapphire."

Back home her gullible local jeweler appraised the gem at $5,000 but a second, hired to set the stone, became suspicious. He sent the stone to a professional lab which confirmed it as a flame fusion synthetic, worth much less than $5,000 -- probably somewhat less than she paid for it ''at the source.''
The lady could have saved herself lots trouble and money by taking advantage of the AIGS'' services in Bangkok. She probably figured there was no need because the ''natives'' are ignorant and buying gems overseas -- or anywhere -- is a simple matter. Hubris and greed can be a dangerous combination.

 

[MJO]

Does Ebay it''self or with Governmental proding owe it to the public to save them from themselves? Is the Goverment?

Our federal government was established to protect us from outside enemies that''s all. All this other stuff was not contemplated by the founding fathers and shouldn''t be handled by them. The more we ask the politicians to do the worse the problems. We have a duty as citizens to do what we can for ourselves. There isn''t enough manpower or money to ask the goverment to do everything (besides they waste the money and never get it right anyway). It was the duty of the states to provide a good local economy and the responsibility of churchs and neighbors to help us out in times of need.

We were personally responsible for our own actions and choices and must learn to live with the consiquenses. It seems now no one wants to take responsibility for anything. It''s societies fault we live in the conditions we do. It''s the teachers fault our kids didn''t learn in school. My child is a good boy, someone must have planted that gun on him and forced him to hold up that liquor store. At court I never hear an accused say they are guilty. If we are waiting for someone else to do a job the job will never get done. If someone is too greedy and not willing to pay for the advice of a professional then he is placing a bet on the outcome. Paying a professional to look out for you is insurance. If you drive without insurance and hit a tree who''s fault is it if you are out financially? If you bought the insurance you would be whole.

That said. I do think that in the case of copyright and patent infringement cases ebay should take action. In this case an outside 3rd party is injured not just the buyer and seller. In NYC if a store is selling counterfit items the city can seize the building from the landlord if they don''t do anything about it.

Sorry for the ranting, It''s neen a long day.


Regards,
Maurice

 

[Edward Bristol]

Richard,

You are completely right: there are people who just don’t deserve different and no one will help them, nor should.

I remember a discussion on a message board where someone had bought a 1ct+ Alexandrite with a good color change (on the pic, haha!) for $2.99 and then swore by the death of his children that he will burn down the dealer’s house if it wasn’t a genius gemstone.
Of course, it was not, and I have zero pity. Even for 1K that would have been a bargain!

I do not feel Ebay should intervene in such a case as long as it is a single happening, but if the Alex seller is doing this professionally, earning on the overcharged transport or packaging etc., than that is bad for all (incl. Ebay, in the long run).

Like on a flea market, one must except that people try to get their best deals or sell well, but every flea market organizer and the other honest participants will not allow professional cheaters on their turf, because they will fear a bad reputation for the market.

Or to stay with your example: The tourists are easy prey for the Bangkok gem scoundrels. Thus the honest shop owners run a “Say NO” promotion in the hotels to stop the Tourists from buying on the street and the Police is ordered to chase people from selling gems illegally on the streets. (The right thing to do, though now too late since the Lonely Planet warns of buying gems in Thailand at all and I have no doubt that most shop owners participate just in order to rip the Tourists off inside their own shops)

However I hope the internet will become a more civilized trade place than the streets of Bangkok. The bad reputation of gems on Ebay jeopardizes the online gem-trade in general and I have to spend so much time to regain peoples trust after they have been ripped of once (mostly on Ebay but also elsewhere online).

Thus I feel Ebay must, for his own sake and for the sake of other honest sellers, become really neutral and actually protect both buyer and seller.

Edward Bristol
www.wildfishgems.com

 

[sylvesterii]

Date: 2/2/2006 7:47:44 PM
Author: MJO
Does Ebay it''self or with Governmental proding owe it to the public to save them from themselves? Is the Goverment?


Our federal government was established to protect us from outside enemies that''s all. All this other stuff was not contemplated by the founding fathers and shouldn''t be handled by them. The more we ask the politicians to do the worse the problems. We have a duty as citizens to do what we can for ourselves. There isn''t enough manpower or money to ask the goverment to do everything (besides they waste the money and never get it right anyway). It was the duty of the states to provide a good local economy and the responsibility of churchs and neighbors to help us out in times of need.


We were personally responsible for our own actions and choices and must learn to live with the consiquenses. It seems now no one wants to take responsibility for anything. It''s societies fault we live in the conditions we do. It''s the teachers fault our kids didn''t learn in school. My child is a good boy, someone must have planted that gun on him and forced him to hold up that liquor store. At court I never hear an accused say they are guilty. If we are waiting for someone else to do a job the job will never get done. If someone is too greedy and not willing to pay for the advice of a professional then he is placing a bet on the outcome. Paying a professional to look out for you is insurance. If you drive without insurance and hit a tree who''s fault is it if you are out financially? If you bought the insurance you would be whole.


That said. I do think that in the case of copyright and patent infringement cases ebay should take action. In this case an outside 3rd party is injured not just the buyer and seller. In NYC if a store is selling counterfit items the city can seize the building from the landlord if they don''t do anything about it.


Sorry for the ranting, It''s neen a long day.



Regards,

Maurice

here, here!