Even more on the

[sandia_rose]

I''m addicted to a late-night radio program called Coast to Coast AM, and this weekend, they had a psychologist on there discussing the child man syndrome and why so many men are unmotivated and won''t grow up. Anyone out there listen to Coast and/or heard this? Check this out:

http://www.coasttocoastam.com/shows/2008/02/16.html

I started to listen to it but ended up falling asleep. I do have a subscription that lets me listen to the show online, and I''m going to get into that later on today (I listen in work sometimes as background). The psychologist also has a website: http://www.boysadrift.com/.

What do you ladies think? This is even more comprehensive than the MSNBC article that someone posted a few weeks back.

Bridget in Connecticut.

 

[Mediterranean]

Interesting stuff!

There''s a lot going on socioeconomically that keeps boys from becoming "Men"....with a big ''ol capital M.

Think about what''s going on in our society: At this point people are graduating from college with a debilitating debt-load (student loans) that prolongs their dependence on their parents, OR that eats up so much of their disposable income that its impossible to go out and have a social life.

So, you''ve got a lot of young men who play video games, chat online (because, for the most part, these activities are cheaper than the "dinner/drinks/movie/club" variety of socializing).

So, Young Mr. Entry Level Job has to live at home or with roomies to pay the bills. He has to sit at home and play on the computer to save money if he ever wants any money in his bank account, besides the basic bill-paying amount.

It''s a juvenile existence, but what else is a young man to do? Work two jobs so he can afford to go out? It''s crazy!

Most of the young men I know are chomping at the BIT to be independent, and to be treated like men, but financially, they''re STUCK because student loan debt in this country is so big today, that it compares with the 1950''s and 60''s equivalent of having a full-on mortgage at age 21!!!

The debt situation in general is slowing things down for a lot of young people (men and women). The worst thing about it is, this generation didn''t create these problems, but they''re sure paying for them!!! Painfully!

This thing with the boy-men is just one symptom of the larger problem....

 

[sandia_rose]

I'm listening to the show right now. It's interesting that they're diving deeper into the (potential) environmental causes of unmotivated men. For example, the use of mood-altering drugs in children and estrogens created from plastic bottles. Not that TV has anything to do with reality, but I'm also a CSI Vegas freak. One show discussed the case of a researcher that was murdered because he was doing fish research. The researcher had uncovered the true cause of female cancers and gynomastia (men with feminine sex characteristics) in a rural area via this research: a corporation's dumping estrogen waste into the water table. The fish were literally changing sexes or becoming ambiguous due to all of the crap in the water....and the same things were happening to people. And the corporation obviously didn't want to get "outed," so they killed the researcher in hopes that the info wouldn't get out.

Part of my problem, I'm realizing, is that my "male role model" growing up was my grandfather. My dad passed when I was a kid, and my grandfather was who I learned about what A Real Man "should" be from. A lot of what I look for and expect in a man is as a result of who my grandfather was. The only problem is that this is not the 1940s/1950s - they don't "make them like that" anymore. My grandfather was a hard-working, blue collar "man's man." He was married to my grandmother for 63 years....and he had no problem proposing to her when the time came (she basically told him to "poo or get off the pot" after dating for a year). But times are different today and I know that. I am trying to reconcile what is ingrained in me verses what is realistic to expect. And to make the problem worse, I was raised by a mother who married young, depended on a man for her welfare, and got screwed because he died and she had no idea how to care for herself. So she raised me a lot like a man in the sense where she expected me to get an education, be fully able to care for myself, etc. She meant well, but being an independent woman with a brain doesn't help when the men you're given to choose from are child men -- or if not, are not in any position to settle down and commit for one reason or another.

Bridget in Connecticut.

 

[Mediterranean]

Oh, wow, we''re a LOT alike!! My dad passed away when he I was 12, and my grandfather was my male role model, too! Even though my Grandpa had a non-physical-labor kind of job (my grandparents owned a travel agency) he did the "physical" stuff as hobbies: on his days off he built cabinets out of his little woodworking bench in his basement, he worked on cars, laid tile, fixed electrical doo-hickeys around the house. And he was definitely the killer-of-spiders and the reacher-of-things-on-high-shelves when I was little.

Also, my Grandparents are Puerto Rican, so in their culture, back in the 1930''s (when they dated) there simply was no "dating around." Old-school Latinas were only allowed to date with "chaperones" and once they were seeing a boy for a few months, exclusively, then the girl''s dad sat him down and (basically threatened him. hee hee, kidding) told him that if his intentions weren''t to marry the gal, then "run along, sonny.." Plus, the culture on the island was such that, if there WAS a boy who decided to "get off the pot" as opposed to "Poo''ing" as your grandma says

then it was the BOY''s reputation that got ruined. People would talk about such a boy like "Why didn''t he want to marry her? Is he gay? Is he broke?" I''m not saying it was a good thing to force young people into marriage, but the old-school Latin, Catholic point of view is VERY different from the Hugh Hefner mentality that is the prevailing sentiment these days.


I listen to Coast-to-Coast, too, but usually only to the Art Bell show, LMAO! UFO conspiracies usually beat what''s on TV at that hour

I''ve heard from those in the dairy farming industry that the hormones with which we inject cows are having a DEFINITE effect on kids. I mean, it makes sense: you''re pumping a two-ton milk producing mammal with MEGA loads of hormones to keep her producing milk when she''s not pregnant.

Those hormones are certainly being excreted in the cow''s milk, and human male children are therefore drinking enough female hormones for a two-ton female cow. I mean that''s GOTTA have an effect on their hormonal development!!!! Drugs that affect brain chemistry are another scary thing altogether. I don''t have any children, so I can''t say for sure whether kids really are ADHD or whether they''ve simply got too much pent-up energy because they aren''t physically active, or because they aren''t being challenged by their studies. But I do worry that doctors and parents are quick to prescribe brain-chemistry altering drugs that don''t even have as much as a single generation''s worth of anecdotal evidence regarding their long-term effects! It''s a weird phenomenon: On the one hand, we''re very anti-drug when it comes to kids, but on the other hand they get this mixed message that somehow the mind-altering drugs you get from the doctor are better than the mind-altering drugs you buy fom the dude on the street corner. I fear more heath Ledger-type incidents because of this particular double-standard.

So, I''m wondering what we do with raising boys now, so that future generation of girls don''t have to deal with the ambiguity of the relationship situation?

 

[ladypirate]

I have had this discussion so many times--my mom and her friends are always asking why the guys in my and my sisters'' generation are so effeminate. I think the hormones are a big part of it. Kris was raised on almost entirely natural food (we''re the children of the hippie generation, I guess

) and doesn''t seem to fall under this whole "man-child" thing (he''s pretty masculine), but a lot of my other guy friends (who ate a lot of processed foods) do. It''s scary how little most people think about what they put in their bodies! And Med, I''m with you on the overmedicated kids thing. I don''t understand why we are giving kids drugs to prevent normal childhood behavior.

On the other hand, I think it''s at least partly societal. One of my male friends pointed out (in regards to initiating relationships) that now that women are equal, it''s only fair that they should have to bear equal weight in asking men out, proposing, etc. IMHO, I have no problem with doing it equally, but it seems to have gotten to the point where women are doing ALL the work. Also, I think someone pointed out that children these days are being discouraged from doing a number of sports because they might be dangerous, which I don''t think is a great idea. All that pent up energy is bound to come out somewhere (and we wonder why so many kids are being diagnosed as ADHD).

I guess the best thing we can do is raise our kids on a low-hormone diet (how scary that we have to think about that) and teach them that being masculine (or feminine) is not a negative thing--men and women are two sides of the same coin.

 

[LegacyGirl]

Date: 2/19/2008 6:56:29 PM
Author: ladypirate
I have had this discussion so many times--my mom and her friends are always asking why the guys in my and my sisters'' generation are so effeminate. I think the hormones are a big part of it. Kris was raised on almost entirely natural food (we''re the children of the hippie generation, I guess

) and doesn''t seem to fall under this whole ''man-child'' thing (he''s pretty masculine), but a lot of my other guy friends (who ate a lot of processed foods) do. It''s scary how little most people think about what they put in their bodies! And Med, I''m with you on the overmedicated kids thing. I don''t understand why we are giving kids drugs to prevent normal childhood behavior.

On the other hand, I think it''s at least partly societal. One of my male friends pointed out (in regards to initiating relationships) that now that women are equal, it''s only fair that they should have to bear equal weight in asking men out, proposing, etc. IMHO, I have no problem with doing it equally, but it seems to have gotten to the point where women are doing ALL the work. Also, I think someone pointed out that children these days are being discouraged from doing a number of sports because they might be dangerous, which I don''t think is a great idea. All that pent up energy is bound to come out somewhere (and we wonder why so many kids are being diagnosed as ADHD).

I guess the best thing we can do is raise our kids on a low-hormone diet (how scary that we have to think about that) and teach them that being masculine (or feminine) is not a negative thing--men and women are two sides of the same coin.

I have a friend that does this and I''m amazed at how well behaved and responsible her children are. I asked her about it and she told me she''s very careful with what they eat. It''s all organic and nonprocessed. They''re allowed to eat candy but she buys them all natural chocolates and sweets and tends to stay away from all the chemical crap. It makes me really want to eat that way. I''ve been looking more and more into incorporating mostly whole foods into my diet and even trying to eat more raw. It''s supposed to improve your life and your health greatly. That show on BBC "You are What You Eat" is really inspiring.

 

[ladypirate]

Date: 2/20/2008 1:41:22 PM
Author: LegacyGirl

Date: 2/19/2008 6:56:29 PM

Author: ladypirate

I have had this discussion so many times--my mom and her friends are always asking why the guys in my and my sisters'' generation are so effeminate. I think the hormones are a big part of it. Kris was raised on almost entirely natural food (we''re the children of the hippie generation, I guess

) and doesn''t seem to fall under this whole ''man-child'' thing (he''s pretty masculine), but a lot of my other guy friends (who ate a lot of processed foods) do. It''s scary how little most people think about what they put in their bodies! And Med, I''m with you on the overmedicated kids thing. I don''t understand why we are giving kids drugs to prevent normal childhood behavior.


On the other hand, I think it''s at least partly societal. One of my male friends pointed out (in regards to initiating relationships) that now that women are equal, it''s only fair that they should have to bear equal weight in asking men out, proposing, etc. IMHO, I have no problem with doing it equally, but it seems to have gotten to the point where women are doing ALL the work. Also, I think someone pointed out that children these days are being discouraged from doing a number of sports because they might be dangerous, which I don''t think is a great idea. All that pent up energy is bound to come out somewhere (and we wonder why so many kids are being diagnosed as ADHD).


I guess the best thing we can do is raise our kids on a low-hormone diet (how scary that we have to think about that) and teach them that being masculine (or feminine) is not a negative thing--men and women are two sides of the same coin.

I have a friend that does this and I''m amazed at how well behaved and responsible her children are. I asked her about it and she told me she''s very careful with what they eat. It''s all organic and nonprocessed. They''re allowed to eat candy but she buys them all natural chocolates and sweets and tends to stay away from all the chemical crap. It makes me really want to eat that way. I''ve been looking more and more into incorporating mostly whole foods into my diet and even trying to eat more raw. It''s supposed to improve your life and your health greatly. That show on BBC ''You are What You Eat'' is really inspiring.

Yeah, we''re big slow foodies--I can''t even eat most of that processed stuff.

 

[sandia_rose]

Date: 2/20/2008 3:48:44 PM
Author: ladypirate

Date: 2/20/2008 1:41:22 PM
Author: LegacyGirl

Date: 2/19/2008 6:56:29 PM

Author: ladypirate

I have had this discussion so many times--my mom and her friends are always asking why the guys in my and my sisters'' generation are so effeminate. I think the hormones are a big part of it. Kris was raised on almost entirely natural food (we''re the children of the hippie generation, I guess

) and doesn''t seem to fall under this whole ''man-child'' thing (he''s pretty masculine), but a lot of my other guy friends (who ate a lot of processed foods) do. It''s scary how little most people think about what they put in their bodies! And Med, I''m with you on the overmedicated kids thing. I don''t understand why we are giving kids drugs to prevent normal childhood behavior.


On the other hand, I think it''s at least partly societal.

We overuse medication FOR EVERYTHING....not just for kids. I don''t know too many people who are not on something - be it Prozac, something for cholesterol, migraine meds, etc. I worked with a woman who was clinically depressed and on meds for years....but whaddya know? Once she got divorced and was free of her controlling, oppressive, constantly-complaining husband, she "miraculously" did not need meds anymore. A fill-in doctor at the practice she went to was smart enough to evaluate her need for the meds...and determined that her "problem" was her environment AND NOT something organic. I''m with her there. I''m not a big drinker, but I do notice that when I am sad, feeling hopeless or in a situation I don''t feel powerful in, I drink measureably more. I really wish doctors would try harder to find the real causes of health issues as opposed to throwing medication at the symptoms.....but then again, the pharmaceutical companies and insurance companies make it lucrative for them to get as many people medicated as possible.

My son and I don''t eat a lot of processed foods. Ever since he was a baby, I''ve given him choices of fresh fruit, cheese, crackers or yogurt for snacks, and he will choose those now -- even when offered ice cream and candy by others. I have also noticed that his behavior markedly changes when he is exposed to certain food additives and dyes. He ate a bag of Skittles that he got from a neighbor once and was holy hell for almost 4 hours afterwards. Needless to say, no more Skittles. My son is also a high-spirited boy who likes roughhousing and has occasionally created "issues" in the classroom. His teacher was dumb enough to suggest to me that maybe I should get him evaluated for ADD. I told her that this was HER challenge, not mine. She is allegedly the trained educator, and my son is one of those kids that will act up when bored. He is 8 and reads on a 6th grade level, so if he is not being adequately challenged in the classroom, medicating him is NOT the answer. I also had a similar talk with my BF about his daughter. She is ADD/ADHD and has been diagnosed bipolar. Those are legit issues. However, she has some other personality traits that I can see through observation that she has picked up from contact with her mother. Those are environmental issues, not medicatable issues.

Having said that, I think a lot of the child-man issue (not all) is societal. I was getting ready to send the link to a friend of mine who was complaining about men to me the other day and came upon a feed from NPR (you can click the Listen Now button on the link to hear the report) about this:

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=18482794


Bridget in Connecticut.

 

[sandia_rose]

Date: 2/19/2008 6:20:54 PM
Author: Mediterranean


I listen to Coast-to-Coast, too, but usually only to the Art Bell show, LMAO! UFO conspiracies usually beat what's on TV at that hour

RIGHT! I am unfortunately a night owl who's had some insomnia, and that show is my lifeline on nights when I can't sleep. I have a StreamLink membership that lets me download MP3s of the show when I can't listen live. It's not all about UFO conspiracies, though. I like it that they cover a full range of interesting topics. I don't agree with everything presented on the show and some of it is even too whacked out for me....but it's really worthwhile to listen to.

Anyone else who is reading this thread, check it out: http://www.coasttocoastam.com


Bridget in Connecticut.