shape
carat
color
clarity

Eyeing a preloved ring -- advice?

newtojewels

Brilliant_Rock
Joined
Jul 16, 2020
Messages
1,094
Hello, and thank you in advance for any advice!

I am wrapping up my PhD and would like to get something special to commemorate it. I am also a total beginner who has never spent more than a few hundred dollars on a piece of jewelry. My only CS pieces are a pair of raw emerald dangly earrings that I bought after passing my qualifying exams and certainly overpaid for (but I do still love them!) and small opal cartilage earrings. I am eyeing this ring and would like a sanity check. It has been on consignment for a long time and I have been admiring it for almost as long. I had a Zoom appointment with Grace who says she feels like it hasn't sold because the ring style is polarizing, but I think I like it! Although it is on consignment, it has apparently never really been owned or worn -- it was apparently a gift that fell through (maybe the polarizing style?). One issue that still needs to be resolved is that the owner believed the main stones were tourmalines but the David Atlas appraisal says spinels, so she is sending it back to DA to confirm.

Obviously I would be getting this as a completed piece, am paying for it being an RDG hand-forged ring, and no one else has bought it yet so I know it isn't the deal of the century. I just don't want to make a big mistake. Luckily it is exactly my size and I have long fingers so I feel like it might not look too ridiculous? I have never tried on a similar style of ring but did make one approximately-to-scale out of paper. I would not be wearing this 24/7 but I would want to wear it regularly. I will have a 100% computer desk job post-graduation and obviously will take it off for sleeping, cooking, working out, etc. and it's a very low setting. I am worried it might look a little 'much' as I'm almost always in jeans/t-shirts during the day, though. The jewelry I already own is simple in rose gold and white metals, not a lot of stones. For whatever it's worth, I imagine having a teal Montana sapphire for my ER when the time comes.

So, sanity check please? I have a spreadsheet of other jewelry items I am considering -- mostly branded pieces because I'm a bit of a sucker for that -- and would plan to have a shopping day where I go to other jewelry stores in my city within the return period and see if I like anything more. Unfortunately Grace's return period is short and I would have to pay for shipping both ways...

Here are a few photos, but the link above has Grace's entire album including videos. Please excuse the dry hands and nails in my paper ring photo, I just came back from a hiking trip where I stupidly let my hands get sunburned.

mfsm66j.png


B5kuf5F.jpg


0D1rEVJ.jpg


sFlUL67.jpg
 
First of all, congrats on your PhD! I have been there, and it feels like such a relief and an accomplishment when it’s finished. So kudos to you!

This is just my humble opinion, of course, but I just think that price point is very high for Tourmaline. Tourmaline is a relatively soft stone so might not stand up to super regular wear. With a $5000 price tag I just feel like you can do better but YMMV. I do love that style of moi et toi. I’m trying to tag a colored stone expert for you but can’t find the name. I will get it momentarily – getting ready for work right now.
 
I think the size and shape would look great on your hand. I found the link and the price does look a little high (https://www.jewelsbygrace.com/colle...n-stone-ring-by-robinson-designer-jewelry-rdg). For me, I think it would be too much for the stones, but it really depends on what you’re comfortable with. Sometimes your heart is just set on something. I wonder if it’s really been consigned for so long she might be open to offers?
 
Tourmaline - expensive
Spinel - reasonable

As you said, pricing is on the high side due to the setting. If spinel, it can be a daily wear ring with the caveats mentioned (no housework). I would wear tourmaline with more care.
 
First of all, congrats on your PhD! I have been there, and it feels like such a relief and an accomplishment when it’s finished. So kudos to you!

This is just my humble opinion, of course, but I just think that price point is very high for Tourmaline. Tourmaline is a relatively soft stone so might not stand up to super regular wear. With a $5000 price tag I just feel like you can do better but YMMV. I do love that style of moi et toi. I’m trying to tag a colored stone expert for you but can’t find the name. I will get it momentarily – getting ready for work right now.

I haven't finished yet! This is my procrastination on actually writing things up :) but thank you!

I think the size and shape would look great on your hand. I found the link and the price does look a little high (https://www.jewelsbygrace.com/colle...n-stone-ring-by-robinson-designer-jewelry-rdg). For me, I think it would be too much for the stones, but it really depends on what you’re comfortable with. Sometimes your heart is just set on something. I wonder if it’s really been consigned for so long she might be open to offers?

I did ask about offers with it being for available for a while, but she said the most she can do is the current 5% sale and another 5% off for wire/Zelle payment, so $4417.50 + $65 shipping. I would obviously prefer for it to cost less!

Tourmaline - expensive
Spinel - reasonable

As you said, pricing is on the high side due to the setting. If spinel, it can be a daily wear ring with the caveats mentioned (no housework). I would wear tourmaline with more care.

What do you think would be involved in 'more care' for tourmaline? I've looked up what others have said but there seems to be such a wide range from 'desk jobs are fine, just pay some attention to your hands as you do things' to 'only wear it for an hour or two to dinner and then immediately remove'. The only ring I ever wear now is a small engraved 18k signet ring that still looks totally new but I've had it for less than a year.
 
Tourmaline would not be a ‘regular to wear’ ring for me. Me specifically, tho.

Price - does it matter if they are rubellites vs magenta tourmaline? I’m not sure. But that’s been said about this ring years ago by the owner, and I doubt they are spinel. Unfortunately - imo- but worth double checking on.

But - to recreate this ring today, even in cast, that’s where I would begin to start looking at
If I wanted to justify the cost.

Congratulations on your achievement!!
 
Last edited:
Oh I have seen this piece before- I like it, too!

What would be a happy budget for you? Or does it depend on the item?
 
Tourmaline would not be a ‘regular to wear’ ring for me.

Price - does it matter if they are rubellites vs magenta tourmaline? I’m not sure. But that’s been said about this ring years ago by the owner, and I doubt they are spinel. Unfortunately - imo- but worth double checking on.

But - to recreate this ring today, even in cast, that’s where I would begin to start looking at
If I wanted to justify the cost.

Congratulations on your achievement!!

Oh, was there a post about this ring initially? I was hunting for previous discussion on it but was unable to find anything. I assume that they are indeed tourmalines and not spinel and that David Atlas made a mistake, but it's worth the ask I think.

I was looking things up to try to get some idea of comps for what it would cost to have something like this made. I wouldn't do that personally because I wouldn't want to copy another designer's work, but AfricaGems has a 1.39 ctw 'rubellite' pair for $515 and a 2.74 ctw pair for $1115. Both seem more pink and less red than these, but that could just be photography (just in case they're spinels, a light pink spinel pair of comparable weight is $1100 and a bright red pair is $1900, also from AfricaGems). A custom single halo seems to range from $1000-$5000+ and I assume doing two halos would bump the price up (double halos on James Allen and Whiteflash seem to be $2k+), but I'm sure you all have a better idea on setting pricing than I do. So maybe $2-3k to recreate it in cast assuming tourmaline and more for hand forged? Does that seem right?

Oh I have seen this piece before- I like it, too!

What would be a happy budget for you? Or does it depend on the item?

Happy budget definitely does depends on the item! I don't mean to be, but I am a sucker for designer pieces, ideally secondhand -- my daily jewelry includes a Tiffany locket and bracelet, for example. Currently my list of possible items ranges from ~$1k for a Brian Gavin DBTY bracelet to the $4.5k for this ring. I was planning to try on a few things at VCA, Cartier, Tiffany, and the local high end jewelers to see if there's anything else that calls to me, and I would definitely take this ring into the stores if I order it. I've also thought about getting something from Yvonne. Too bad opals are even more fragile than tourmalines, or something like this ring from Black Opals Direct would also be on the list.

TatianaRG_Ring_1.47ct.png


I know I want a ring or bracelet so I can see it, and if a ring I want it to look definitely different from the potential Montana sapphire ER but still kind of fit. This is a bad MS paint mash up of a Gemfix sapphire and an Erika Winters set next to the RDG ring -- that feels different enough but still harmonious to me, but others may disagree!
a6AD0Xw.png
 
Ask JbG if you can have a little/reasonable extended viewing time if three days (I think?) isn’t enough?
You stated you’ve looked at this ring for quite a while. The shipping back and forth (if you return it) is what, below $175? Is that maybe worth it to really know you might love it, or to know you don’t love it and it’s put out of your mind after being in your mind for years?

If doing something similar- (let’s not broach the copying aspect because that’s not really what we are doing in this case - we are talking about the price set of a preloved piece)
Aurelia Gems has a nice pair of Rubellite pears for reference. Maybe a tad bigger than the ring. $1000
If you want rubies instead of diamond melee - that’s going to be the kicker. Getting very well matched in color and cut. Meaning as well as matching to the pears, not getting 10 different table sizes and no chips/dings ( :x2 ). …… $500 ballpark might do you quick and dirty at YR, but that doesn’t guarantee nearly perfectly cut/matched. It may be much much more….
Cast in platinum - $1500-1800 absolute ballpark guess, plus all the tax and shipping of’s the to and from. Quality of finish probably not the same in macro viewing to macro viewing of inspo.
How much those little tiny details/finish that may not happen/may go awry - does it matter to you for the savings?

It’s ready made.
It’s your size.
It’s designer /hand forged and nicely put together/done.
The convenience is there that it already exists.
It’s not a ‘deal’ of a buy. But someone who hypothetically assembles my mock example and ends up with a ring that’s not quite just like a RDG piece, especially if they might care in looking at macro photos to macro photos, may not be that happy about it- in the end. Especially if one is typically leaning towards designer/branded pieces.

Only you can answer that for your own peace of mind.
I just like to play devils advocate. :)
 
Last edited:
Since the main stones' identification is in conflict, and in consideration of the price point, I'd ask Grace to send it to GIA or AGL, both of which will examine mounted stones.
 
Also I’ve seem this shape of ring on the real real before.
 
Tourmaline would not be a ‘regular to wear’ ring for me. Me specifically, tho.

Price - does it matter if they are rubellites vs magenta tourmaline? I’m not sure. But that’s been said about this ring years ago by the owner, and I doubt they are spinel. Unfortunately - imo- but worth double checking on.

But - to recreate this ring today, even in cast, that’s where I would begin to start looking at
If I wanted to justify the cost.

Congratulations on your achievement!!

I was going to say the same about creating it. Yes more work involved but getting some pretty pears and having someone make it would mean that you could pick some pretty stones - the PS community would help you for sure :) I love the shape etc. - I just find it so expensive!!
 
Just saw the other comments - don't know why they didn't load before. So this design isn't something that is one of a kind, a moi toi vertical pear is something I would not consider "copying".

I just noticed that Atlas said spinel. Hmmmmm. So which is it??? Did you ask Grace about that discrepancy?

I think buying pink/red pears and having them surrounded by diamonds instead of rubies would be AMAZING.
 
I’m going to play devil‘s advocate. Since you say you like branded pieces, would you be happy if you could recreate this piece for $3K but it didn’t have the cache of a RDG piece? What if the recreation was a little different/off? Could you love the new ring if you looked at it and thought that it didn’t have the finesse of the RDG piece? What about color? If a recreation is a darker red or lighter pink could you love it or is it this color that makes your heart sing?
Either way, if you decide to proceed I agree with the other poster to ask for a longer return period. I think 7d is more fair.
 
Ask JbG if you can have a little/reasonable extended viewing time if three days (I think?) isn’t enough?
You stated you’ve looked at this ring for quite a while. The shipping back and forth (if you return it) is what, below $175? Is that maybe worth it to really know you might love it, or to know you don’t love it and it’s put out of your mind after being in your mind for years?

If doing something similar- (let’s not broach the copying aspect because that’s not really what we are doing in this case - we are talking about the price set of a preloved piece)
Aurelia Gems has a nice pair of Rubellite pears for reference. Maybe a tad bigger than the ring. $1000
If you want rubies instead of diamond melee - that’s going to be the kicker. Getting very well matched in color and cut. Meaning as well as matching to the pears, not getting 10 different table sizes and no chips/dings ( :x2 ). …… $500 ballpark might do you quick and dirty at YR, but that doesn’t guarantee nearly perfectly cut/matched. It may be much much more….
Cast in platinum - $1500-1800 absolute ballpark guess, plus all the tax and shipping of’s the to and from. Quality of finish probably not the same in macro viewing to macro viewing of inspo.
How much those little tiny details/finish that may not happen/may go awry - does it matter to you for the savings?

It’s ready made.
It’s your size.
It’s designer /hand forged and nicely put together/done.
The convenience is there that it already exists.
It’s not a ‘deal’ of a buy. But someone who hypothetically assembles my mock example and ends up with a ring that’s not quite just like a RDG piece, especially if they might care in looking at macro photos to macro photos, may not be that happy about it- in the end. Especially if one is typically leaning towards designer/branded pieces.

Only you can answer that for your own peace of mind.
I just like to play devils advocate. :)

Thank you so much for this very detailed and helpful answer! It gives me a lot to think about. Insured shipping both ways would be $130 through JbG, which is so much less than the cost of the piece. I'm definitely leaning towards ordering it so I *know*. Maybe I'll actually hate it in real life.

Since the main stones' identification is in conflict, and in consideration of the price point, I'd ask Grace to send it to GIA or AGL, both of which will examine mounted stones.

I'll definitely ask about it if David Atlas says spinels again -- if he thinks they're tourmalines this time and that he made a mistake last time, would it still be worth sending it in? I would think not...

Also I’ve seem this shape of ring on the real real before.

I have definitely seen similar before, though not all one color like this. Good point that it isn't a totally unique design, so maybe worth thinking about recreating with a sturdier stone if these do turn out to be tourmalines...

I was going to say the same about creating it. Yes more work involved but getting some pretty pears and having someone make it would mean that you could pick some pretty stones - the PS community would help you for sure :) I love the shape etc. - I just find it so expensive!!

I do find some 'mind clean' value in knowing who exactly made the ring and that they've gone on to do such special work. Here's the instagram of their current venture, for those who aren't aware (not that you aren't, Mreader!). But yes, it is very expensive, which is why I'm asking here!

Just saw the other comments - don't know why they didn't load before. So this design isn't something that is one of a kind, a moi toi vertical pear is something I would not consider "copying".

I just noticed that Atlas said spinel. Hmmmmm. So which is it??? Did you ask Grace about that discrepancy?

I think buying pink/red pears and having them surrounded by diamonds instead of rubies would be AMAZING.

Yes, I asked Grace and she's sending the ring back to Atlas to check -- I'll know in a week or so what he says. I actually like the monochrome rather than diamond halo, which would definitely make this more difficult to emulate. I think the same thing in all diamonds would be pretty, though, and would be much easier! Rose cuts with a single cut halo in rose gold for a more subtle overall look....Hmmmm, worth thinking about (I know this is the wrong forum for that!)..... Or imagine all paraiba with cabochon pears! That would be a knockout in looks and budget :)

I think this preference might be because my mother has the classic blue oval sapphire with diamonds around it, so it feels like her jewelry and not mine, if that makes sense.

@Rfisher omg those stones look niiiiiice. I'm linking for OP

Yes, I found these after Rfisher mentioned them! Very pretty stones to my untrained eye. If I were to make my own version, though, I would probably do spinels or corundum or diamond for the wearability.

I’m going to play devil‘s advocate. Since you say you like branded pieces, would you be happy if you could recreate this piece for $3K but it didn’t have the cache of a RDG piece? What if the recreation was a little different/off? Could you love the new ring if you looked at it and thought that it didn’t have the finesse of the RDG piece? What about color? If a recreation is a darker red or lighter pink could you love it or is it this color that makes your heart sing?
Either way, if you decide to proceed I agree with the other poster to ask for a longer return period. I think 7d is more fair.

Yes, I thought about that too! I think if I were to recreate, it might have to be with one of the other handforged benches and not attempt to do the same colors to feel like it has equal worth to me. So similar shapes but not attempting the same overall look. And that would also potentially make it expensive than the original RDG because it would be new instead of secondhand, no matter how good of a deal I got on the stones....

I'll definitely ask for a longer period if I order, thank you all for suggesting it!
 
I didn't get much sleep last night, and keep missing things. I didn't realize it was a designer piece. Lol. That certainly changes the situation. And of course if they are spinels, that definitely changes it too.
 
If the stones are spinels rather than tourmalines, I think you have a winner. Tourmalines are too soft for me personally to wear as a ring or bracelet except going to church/dinner/party, and I still managed to chip mine.

In terms of recreating, I recently spent a year looking for red melee that matched. Of course mine were different sizes, but it was still expensive to get what I wanted and hard to source.
 
I wouldn't do that personally because I wouldn't want to copy another designer's work

This is not a unique design. It has a designer name on it, but it's basically a two stone ring with halo and pave. This arrangement of the stones, being set vertically, rather than next to each other or bypassing, used to be quite popular at some point in history. I can probably pull dozens of images from google of similar vintage rings, and a good deal of them would be a lot more intricate and detailed.

That's not to say this isn't a beautiful ring - it absolutely is. I'm saying, if it's not precisely what you want, you can do something similar (or entirely different) which fits your vision fully. Because, as it's already been mentioned, this ring is by no means a good deal. Especially if the stones are tourmalines. What you'd be paying for is basically the name of the designer and the price of the manual labour that went into making it. Is that important enough for you to spend 5k on it? Only you can make that judgement.
 
I've admired that ring before! I don't necessarily think style is polarizing (but I like it, so what do I know?). The discrepancy between spinel and tourmaline is what made me not consider it. The price seemed reasonable for spinel, but overpriced for tourmaline. Like other people have mentioned, I would ask for report before purchasing.
 
This is a beautiful ring... I can see why you like it so much. I'm also not someone who wears tourmalines in rings for fear of damaging them. I regularly peruse Ivy New York's site and there are similar rings (not exactly the same, but similar aesthetic) that are made with spinels and garnets so I thought I'd share, since branded jewelry is something you said you appreciated. I thought of this one, for example:
This one is closer to the JbG one (with mandarine garnets, though), but you'd have to ask for the price:
And more, with stones of different colors:

Anyway, this might cement the fact that you like the JbG and nothing else will do, or it might mean that other things are available out there. The style is certainly not unique, and you could have something similar made to your own specifications too, should you choose to go that route!
 
I didn't get much sleep last night, and keep missing things. I didn't realize it was a designer piece. Lol. That certainly changes the situation. And of course if they are spinels, that definitely changes it too.

Let's hope! :)

If the stones are spinels rather than tourmalines, I think you have a winner. Tourmalines are too soft for me personally to wear as a ring or bracelet except going to church/dinner/party, and I still managed to chip mine.

In terms of recreating, I recently spent a year looking for red melee that matched. Of course mine were different sizes, but it was still expensive to get what I wanted and hard to source.

Thank you for sharing your experience with red melee! I took a quick look through your posts to see if I could find a final piece but was unsuccessful. Do you have a link?

This is not a unique design. It has a designer name on it, but it's basically a two stone ring with halo and pave. This arrangement of the stones, being set vertically, rather than next to each other or bypassing, used to be quite popular at some point in history. I can probably pull dozens of images from google of similar vintage rings, and a good deal of them would be a lot more intricate and detailed.

That's not to say this isn't a beautiful ring - it absolutely is. I'm saying, if it's not precisely what you want, you can do something similar (or entirely different) which fits your vision fully. Because, as it's already been mentioned, this ring is by no means a good deal. Especially if the stones are tourmalines. What you'd be paying for is basically the name of the designer and the price of the manual labour that went into making it. Is that important enough for you to spend 5k on it? Only you can make that judgement.

I guess the question is that I don't know yet if it's precisely what I want... Obviously it being spinel would help, but I'm not holding out hope for that. And regardless I think I would have to see it in person to know for sure. It would be easier if I had seen something similar on my hand before!

I've admired that ring before! I don't necessarily think style is polarizing (but I like it, so what do I know?). The discrepancy between spinel and tourmaline is what made me not consider it. The price seemed reasonable for spinel, but overpriced for tourmaline. Like other people have mentioned, I would ask for report before purchasing.

I don't understand how it could be polarizing either!

This is a beautiful ring... I can see why you like it so much. I'm also not someone who wears tourmalines in rings for fear of damaging them. I regularly peruse Ivy New York's site and there are similar rings (not exactly the same, but similar aesthetic) that are made with spinels and garnets so I thought I'd share, since branded jewelry is something you said you appreciated. I thought of this one, for example:
This one is closer to the JbG one (with mandarine garnets, though), but you'd have to ask for the price:
And more, with stones of different colors:

Anyway, this might cement the fact that you like the JbG and nothing else will do, or it might mean that other things are available out there. The style is certainly not unique, and you could have something similar made to your own specifications too, should you choose to go that route!

Thank you for those links! That's a website I haven't seen before in my online window shopping, and it's always fun to have something new to admire!
 
Dumb question, but if there are no eye-visible or macro-phone-camera-visible scratches on my 18k rose gold signet ring that I wear on the same finger as I would wear this ring, would that mean I'm at least somewhat gentle with jewelry? I've worn the signet ring less carefully than I would wear this ring (I don't always take it off in the shower or to sleep, for example), but I have had it for a little less than a year so it isn't exactly long-term evidence. And I don't know what's typical for level of visible wear on jewelry, which is why I'm asking!
 
Visually, it's a cool design,
But I'd be concerned about the practicality of it.
The mechanical stability of that design gives me cause for concern. :think:

Such long extensions from the relatively small connection point increases the odds that some day one or both lobes will encounter force that bends it or snaps it off.
Perhaps small stresses over the years will result in cumulative metal fatigue.

I'd consult a degreed mechanical engineer on this.
 
Visually, it's a cool design,
But I'd be concerned about the practicality of it.
The mechanical stability of that design gives me cause for concern. :think:

Such long extensions from the relatively small connection point increases the odds that some day one or both lobes will encounter force that bends it or snaps it off.
Perhaps small stresses over the years will result in cumulative metal fatigue.

I'd consult a degreed mechanical engineer on this.

I just reached out to a friend who is a civil structural engineer about your concerns. He says "I think if you're wearing this ring in a situation where this might be an issue, you need to rethink where you're wearing this ring" -- though he is not an expert in metals and jewelry, of course. He did ask about whether the top end would stick out if I make a fist (Wolverine-style!), but my hands are big enough that I don't anticipate that happening. I'll give it a try if I order the ring.

Speaking of, signing up for emails and texts gets you free shipping at JbG -- so that at least reduces the risk if I decide to see it in person. Again, it will be a while before we hear the Atlas update. If he still thinks spinel, I will ask Grace about sending it into a lab. I still expect him to say tourmaline, though, and that the initial appraisal was a mistake. I will keep you all posted!
 
Let's hope! :)



Thank you for sharing your experience with red melee! I took a quick look through your posts to see if I could find a final piece but was unsuccessful. Do you have a link?



I guess the question is that I don't know yet if it's precisely what I want... Obviously it being spinel would help, but I'm not holding out hope for that. And regardless I think I would have to see it in person to know for sure. It would be easier if I had seen something similar on my hand before!



I don't understand how it could be polarizing either!



Thank you for those links! That's a website I haven't seen before in my online window shopping, and it's always fun to have something new to admire!
Here you go! No thread.
650CFEBC-1110-4DF8-BFEC-3D8010BCCA3A.jpeg
 

Attachments

  • 7054DEEF-6DA8-4BA6-971F-0C08FAB284C6.jpeg
    7054DEEF-6DA8-4BA6-971F-0C08FAB284C6.jpeg
    718.1 KB · Views: 7
  • CEEED924-A118-4D08-9411-C0FE96044921.jpeg
    CEEED924-A118-4D08-9411-C0FE96044921.jpeg
    858.5 KB · Views: 6
  • E72DA97B-960B-41D1-94C1-C3D09729BCFC.jpeg
    E72DA97B-960B-41D1-94C1-C3D09729BCFC.jpeg
    964 KB · Views: 6
Here you go! No thread.
650CFEBC-1110-4DF8-BFEC-3D8010BCCA3A.jpeg

That's lovely! And I can see why trying to match those different sizes would have been a real challenge.
 

It's on its way to me! Should arrive on Friday, and I will post photos as soon as it does. Unfortunately David Atlas said tourmalines after all, but regardless we'll see what I think in person. I have the Yvonne Raley Paraiba from Loupetroop and a secondhand Tiffany Victoria Vine ring (this one), and will have to decide what to do. I can't reasonably keep all three, though I could keep the Tiffany and the Paraiba for less than this RDG....

Decisions, decisions!
 
It's on its way to me! Should arrive on Friday, and I will post photos as soon as it does. Unfortunately David Atlas said tourmalines after all, but regardless we'll see what I think in person. I have the Yvonne Raley Paraiba from Loupetroop and a secondhand Tiffany Victoria Vine ring (this one), and will have to decide what to do. I can't reasonably keep all three, though I could keep the Tiffany and the Paraiba for less than this RDG....

Decisions, decisions!

looking forward to hand shots :appl:
:appl: :appl:
 
GET 3 FREE HCA RESULTS JOIN THE FORUM. ASK FOR HELP

Featured Topics

Top