Feeling motivated and unprepared

[BrilliantNikki]

So after five save the dates arriving in my mailbox this month and the phone call from my best friend today about her engagement I am feeling ready to pull my hair out talk to my BF about a getting engaged. But - what do I say and when do I say it?... I have been thinking about this for a LOOOOOOONG time now but I just don''t know how to approach the topic. Since I know you lovely ladies give such wonderful advice I knew I could turn to you.

BACKGROUND:

My BF (26) and I (25) just celebrated our five year anniversary last month - and we have been living together for the past 3 years (I should mention that I moved half way across the country and away from my only family to be out here with him ... and I actually expected an engagement at that point... fast forward three years and I still have a naked fourth finger)...

For all intents and purposes we are practically already married. We bought a house, we share the expenses (but without a joint account), we ... well you get the idea. He and I both have stable jobs that pay decently so there is no "real" problem financially. He is a great guy that treats me like a queen and will be a great husband. So whats the issue?

Well - he loves to spend money on stuff for himself. He just bought a new (used) car for himself (in addition to his truck and two motorcycles) because he wanted a car that was "fun" to drive and has been equipping it with all the extras recently. And on op of that huge expense he is constantly buying himself new electronics (MP3 player, computer components, video games...).

Now truth be told I am becoming resentful towards him because I feel that at this point on our relationship he should at least be considering moving towards marriage SOON. I do think that if I got the courage to talk to him about how I feel that he would put the money towards a ring - I just can''t figure out how to talk to him about this. He is really big on not being told "what to do" and i really don''t want to come off as pushy or even worse make him feel like I am giving him an ultimatum.

On top of my insecurities about what to say it seems like every time I get the courage to talk to him about this it turns out to be poor timing (i.e. today he just got really bad news about his job).

I don''t know maybe this is just an good way for me to vent (sorry for the long post but WOW it feels good to get this all out into an open forum) but if you guys have any advice for how to talk to him or when a good time would be I would really appreciate it.

 

[KimberlyH]

No yelling, no threatening, no saying things you don't mean/will regret:

"Honey, I love you and I want to spend my life with you. After five years together I think it's time that we start discussing our future. Where do you see us headed?

If he provides you with a vague answer such as "married sometime in the future" I'd follow up with:

"Here's what I envision, we are engaged within (insert time here, e.g. 3 months, 6 months, etc.) and married within (insert time here). How do you feel about this? Do you think this is reasonable? If not what would be reasonable to you?"

And on you go...

ETA: As for when is best, everyone has good times and bad times. If I approach my husband with a serious topic, that doesn't need to be immediately addressed, at 8pm on Friday night I'm not going to get a whole lot out of him. If I approach him in the morning when he's at his best then,we're going to have a productive conversation. So what are his best times to talk? Dinner? On a walk in the afternoon with no distractions? That's when I'd bring it up.

 

[~*Alexis*~]

I think it is long overdue to have a conversation with him about it. There is never a "right" time to discuss these types if things. Mainly because there will always be speed bumps in the way. You are going on towards 30 in the next few years....are you thinking about a family awhynytime soon??

Its one of those where do you see us in 2 years conversations...or its a so an so just got engaged...when do you want to get married?

In his mind why buy the cow when you can get the milk for free kind of thing...he has to too good. Personally I would have put my foot down way earlier than 3 years. This is a conversation that is way past due.

He may not deal well with ultimatums, but I think it is time to remind him of what you have sacrificed in order to be with him and now it is his turn. NOT in an ultimatum voice but I am really concerned voice.

If he is unwilling to give up his toys for your one bling...its time you two had a heart to heart. Good Luck!!

 

[ktdid]

I totally agree with Alexis! Word for word. Talk to that boy!

 

[aljdewey]

Nikki, it seems you think the ring isn''t forthcoming because he wants to spend money on himself instead. However, I don''t see anything in your synopsis that even suggests you''ve ever talked about marriage at all.

Before you determine that his ''problem'' is selfish spending, you should be asking some basic questions.

Is marriage something you want/see for yourself?
If so, when do you think you''d begin to consider it?
Do you see our relationship moving in that direction?

I disagree that this conversation is necessarily ''long past due'' just based on five years together. Five years together in your late 20s/early 30s is far different from five years together in your early 20s.

Most men today don''t imagine themselves even THINKING about marriage before they''re 30. Most woman are chomping at the bit long before then, largely due to societal and biological pressures.

If you''re mature enough to be contemplating marriage, then you should also be mature enough to recognize the important role that sound communication plays in a relationship. If you''re ready to bind your life to this person, you shouldn''t be afraid to talk with him about something you think is important.

Before you can both arrive at any kind of timeline, you really need to find out what each other wants and when you each think you want it. Use that as a baseline for a conversation about where your relationship is going. From there, you can determine if you do both want the same things and whether or not you can arrive at mutually acceptable time frames.

 

[KimberlyH]

Date: 1/21/2008 9:55:28 PM
Author: aljdewey

I disagree that this conversation is necessarily ''long past due'' just based on five years together. Five years together in your late 20s/early 30s is far different from five years together in your early 20s.


If you''re mature enough to be contemplating marriage, then you should also be mature enough to recognize the important role that sound communication plays in a relationship. If you''re ready to bind your life to this person, you shouldn''t be afraid to talk with him about something you think is important.

Before you can both arrive at any kind of timeline, you really need to find out what each other wants and when you each think you want it. Use that as a baseline for a conversation about where your relationship is going. From there, you can determine if you do both want the same things and whether or not you can arrive at mutually acceptable time frames.

If my mock conversation intimated that a couple should be ready for marriage because they''ve been together for 5 years than I''ve misspoken. Marriage is a decision that should be made by a couple because they are both ready emotionally and financially, not because some arbitrary date has passed. I was just trying to provide a non-confrontational opener, based on the information provided by the OP (she''s ready for marriage and has been for some time, he is seemingly not even thinking about it).

In other words, what she said.

 

[beebrisk]

This post troubles me on a few levels.

First of all, I don''t mean to sound condescending at all, but I am quite a bit older than you (20+ years) and I do feel I can offer some sage advice born of experience and a few hard knocks.

I''ve never felt it was a great idea for a woman to give up her life (in this case moving away from your family) to go live with a man, be financially bound to him (you own a house together) and do it without a commitment. And by commitment, I do mean marriage. It''s one thing when you can go back to "mother''s house" if things get rough, but you are in a position where you''ve built a life around HIM, and he still continues to revolve in his OWN orbit (spending money on toys, instead of your future). Indeed, there is something to be said for not buying the cow because the milk is free... Our grandmothers were wise.

With that said, you are now in this living situation, and you must make your desire for marriage known. It''s hard for me to understand living under the same roof with someone and not feeling comfortable enough to approach the subject of marriage and future. You should, at this point, be able to talk to him about anything. Of course, that''s easier said than done, but it''s disturbing that you''ve never talked about it and that you fear the conversation!

You should not be resentful toward him...You are a responsible adult who made the decision to move across the country to live with him. This was your choice. You may have ''thought'' you''d be engaged by now, but did you actually TALK about it before you moved in together? Did you two talk about the path you''d like to take together...Did you make a plan?

You are just as responsible for this situation as he is. I don''t mean to sound harsh, but unless there''s open communication between the two of you, and unless it happens soon, I can''t imagine this coming to a great conclusion.

I''m not saying to hit him over the head and demand an engagement, but I think you two need to do some growing up together and figure out where this is going. You both need to TALK and now is the time. Find out where he stands. If you are afraid of his reaction, then you might need to take a really close look at where you''re headed and seriously re-evaluate this relationship.

A couple about to be married must be on the same wavelength, and must be moving in the same direction--at the very least. Don''t wait too long. I have friends who have found themselves in your position for years, simply because they they don''t want to rock the boat. Meantime, they are miserable because they want to be married and start a family. You also don''t want to find yourself entangled in a financial situation with a man who won''t fully and completely commit to you. That''s never pretty.

Good luck...Don''t be afraid of talking...it''s the most important thing in any relationship.

Best,
Bee

 

[iheartscience]

Ditto to Bee, Alj and KimberlyH. I think you need to talk to him about this as soon as possible. And if you feel you can''t talk to him about something this important, I would definitely think about why that is.

 

[diamondfan]

I can understand your anxiousness. But also agree if you moved there and live together, A: he should not be taken by surprise that you want to discuss this and B: How could you want to marry someone that you feel cannot be approached about something this important?
It is spilled milk now, but you did move with him without that extra level of commitment. Maybe he just assumes you are fine with the status quo, since you have not really brought the topic up. And yes, he seems to be very self involved where spending is concerned, and I am not sure this is a trait that will likely change. I could be wrong, maybe getting engaged will change his focus on the monetary issues, but I would think that again that is something to iron out sooner rather than later.

If you bring it up without anger or without putting him on the defensive I think he will amenable to having the discussion. To me, I would rather bring it out in the open and let the chips fall, than tip toe around it like a huge pink elephant in the room and not deal with it.

Good luck, take a deep breath and try to focus on being focused and not too emotional, let him know how you feel and listen to him too.

 

[INdmbLove]

I agree with Kimberly- setting up the conversation in that way will give him a clear-cut idea of what you want. Men think in concrete terms- and often like for things to be laid out for them in that way. (note: I did not say told what to do)

One thing I have learned, guys do not read our minds. If there has been a lack of conversation about marriage, I would bet that he assumes you''re not concerned about it. From what I have observed- women typically initiate that conversation. For all you know he''s just waiting for the green light from you to begin saving/looking for a ring. You have to have those conversations in a relationship- even the most charming of the prince charmings don''t read minds and do everything we want- if we don''t tell them what it is that we want.

 

[aljdewey]

Date: 1/21/2008 10:21:03 PM
Author: KimberlyH

Date: 1/21/2008 9:55:28 PM
Author: aljdewey

I disagree that this conversation is necessarily ''long past due'' just based on five years together. Five years together in your late 20s/early 30s is far different from five years together in your early 20s.


If you''re mature enough to be contemplating marriage, then you should also be mature enough to recognize the important role that sound communication plays in a relationship. If you''re ready to bind your life to this person, you shouldn''t be afraid to talk with him about something you think is important.

Before you can both arrive at any kind of timeline, you really need to find out what each other wants and when you each think you want it. Use that as a baseline for a conversation about where your relationship is going. From there, you can determine if you do both want the same things and whether or not you can arrive at mutually acceptable time frames.

If my mock conversation intimated that a couple should be ready for marriage because they''ve been together for 5 years than I''ve misspoken. Marriage is a decision that should be made by a couple because they are both ready emotionally and financially, not because some arbitrary date has passed. I was just trying to provide a non-confrontational opener, based on the information provided by the OP (she''s ready for marriage and has been for some time, he is seemingly not even thinking about it).

In other words, what she said.

Oh, Kimi, my post actually didn''t refer to yours at all. As usual, what you wrote was right on.

My comment about the length of their relationship (five years) pointed back to Alexis'' ''long past due'' comment and to the OP''s comment that they''ve been in relationship five years, living together for 3, and something implying that based on this BF should be considering moving toward marriage soon''.

Both gals seemed to suggest that the length of the relationship already should somehow influence his readiness to marry now, and that''s what I disagreed with.

 

[~*Alexis*~]

I dont think I was necessarily referring to the length of being with another but that the fact that the conversation had not taken place for so long and that they had not had that conversation before they made those life changing investments i.e moving away from family, buying a house, living together.

The time factor was brought up mainly because if they wished to start a family, they would possible have only a few good years to ttc. Of course that depends on the length of engagement, wedding planning, ttc and the 9 month wait for birth.

However I do think that conversation is long over due. Three years and making that sort of financial dependency on someone with no family or a back up plan is something in which that conversation should have transpired already.

None the less....talk to the man. He will never understand unless you lay it out for him. You need to be straight forward with him, sometimes men just dont understand the run around of conversations.

 

[BrilliantNikki]

OK - WOW, thanks ladies for the good advice. There are a lot of mixed reactions on this post and I think that is due in part to my failure to fully explain everything (for fear of being long winded). So a few things:

1) I haven''t really been "pushing" for getting married up until now because I have been content the way things have been. I made the choice to move out here because I needed to see if things would continue to be "wonderful" as they had been the first two years we were together (all 2 years were long distance). I am also an advocate of living with someone before you marry them. So making that commitment was a conscious one with all the costs and benefits weighed. I agree that it may be a "bad" idea to make that financial tie to him that way with out any legal binds like marriage - but it has been working out OK.

2) On a financial note, I made him sound very irresponsible - that was spite talking. He is waaaaay more responsible with his money than I am, and he puts a lot of money out there for our home and for living expenses. I do think that a lot of his spending is frivolously spent on toys (Its obvious that at this point I would rather him be saving money for a ring/wedding).

3) We have talked about marriage in the past. Several times actually, particularly around the time that I was planning on moving out here; this is the main reason I thought he was going to ask me then (I should also point out that I wasn’t devastated that he didn’t ask me back then). We have also talked about it more recently, but we typically only touch briefly on the subject, as most of our conversations about the future revolve around having children. I have "set a time line" re: children. My dream is that I would be finished having kids by 30 - not likely now, but one by then would be fine.

We both agree that not much would be different from our daily lives if we were to get married. And I think in part that he does think I am perfectly content they way things are – which is admittedly my fault. I have come to realize that at this point I need him to make that commitment to me.

I think that you all provided me with some wonderful insights into my situation and have allowed me to do some self appraisal. I do think that I have put myself into this situation by being afraid to approach the situation. I typically get very emotional regarding stuff like this and I try so hard to have this tough exterior that I refuse to put myself into situations where I get teary (but WOW that’s a whole other topic for another forum

)

We are going on a mini trip this week (leaving this afternoon) and I think that this will be a good time to talk to him about how I feel. There are several posts on here that having given me a good outline on how I need to say things.

 

[~*Alexis*~]

Good luck with your trip and your conversation. I hope he understands. Good Luck...you may come back with an announcement!!

 

[bee*]

Best of luck on the trip and definitely have a chat with him. When I was having the same chat with D, I just sat him down and basically asked where he saw his future and was it with me, what age etc did he think that he''d like to get engaged. Even though we had been together nearly 6 years at that stage, he hadn''t actually thought about getting engaged at all

Granted we started going out when we were 17/18 so I had only thought about it in the past little while before then. I wasn''t ready myself to get engaged at that stage but I just wanted to make sure we were on the same page. I hope that your chat is successful!

 

[anchor31]

Date: 1/21/2008 11:27:59 PM
Author: beebrisk
This post troubles me on a few levels.

First of all, I don''t mean to sound condescending at all, but I am quite a bit older than you (20+ years) and I do feel I can offer some sage advice born of experience and a few hard knocks.

I''ve never felt it was a great idea for a woman to give up her life (in this case moving away from your family) to go live with a man, be financially bound to him (you own a house together) and do it without a commitment. And by commitment, I do mean marriage. It''s one thing when you can go back to ''mother''s house'' if things get rough, but you are in a position where you''ve built a life around HIM, and he still continues to revolve in his OWN orbit (spending money on toys, instead of your future). Indeed, there is something to be said for not buying the cow because the milk is free... Our grandmothers were wise.

With that said, you are now in this living situation, and you must make your desire for marriage known. It''s hard for me to understand living under the same roof with someone and not feeling comfortable enough to approach the subject of marriage and future. You should, at this point, be able to talk to him about anything. Of course, that''s easier said than done, but it''s disturbing that you''ve never talked about it and that you fear the conversation!

You should not be resentful toward him...You are a responsible adult who made the decision to move across the country to live with him. This was your choice. You may have ''thought'' you''d be engaged by now, but did you actually TALK about it before you moved in together? Did you two talk about the path you''d like to take together...Did you make a plan?

You are just as responsible for this situation as he is. I don''t mean to sound harsh, but unless there''s open communication between the two of you, and unless it happens soon, I can''t imagine this coming to a great conclusion.

I''m not saying to hit him over the head and demand an engagement, but I think you two need to do some growing up together and figure out where this is going. You both need to TALK and now is the time. Find out where he stands. If you are afraid of his reaction, then you might need to take a really close look at where you''re headed and seriously re-evaluate this relationship.

A couple about to be married must be on the same wavelength, and must be moving in the same direction--at the very least. Don''t wait too long. I have friends who have found themselves in your position for years, simply because they they don''t want to rock the boat. Meantime, they are miserable because they want to be married and start a family. You also don''t want to find yourself entangled in a financial situation with a man who won''t fully and completely commit to you. That''s never pretty.

Good luck...Don''t be afraid of talking...it''s the most important thing in any relationship.

Best,
Bee

I''m much younger than BeeBrisk (even younger than you!), but I have to say I agree completely with her post. Moving across the country for him and buying a house with even an engagement was a huge risk you took, and by the looks of it, he seems to be quite content with the status quo. You live as though you''re married, so what motivations does he have to actually do it?

In your last post, you mention that your timeline for children will most likely not hold because of his "feet-dragging"... It makes me very sad. It looks to me (based on what you''ve posted so far, of course) like although you''ve been sacrificing so much and working so hard to build an "us", he''s still very focused on "me". At this point in the relationship, decisions (including the ones about buying cars and fancy accessories) should be taken jointly, because married or not you are living together and sharing finances, and from what I gather they''re not.

One thing I always tell new LIWs that ask for this kind of advice (I was told the same thing over 2 years ago) is that men can''t read our minds. You expected a proposal when you moved across the country for him (and I don''t blame you!), but did you specifically tell him so? Because you associated a commitment from you with a commitment from him doesn''t mean he did. You believe it''s time for a proposal after 5 years (I don''t blame you for that either), but that doesn''t mean he does either. So good luck with you talk, the best thing you can do is tell him exactly what you want (proposal by X time, marriage by Y). And like BeeBrisk said, you shouldn''t be afraid to talk to him! Not after five years, not after you''ve made such big commitments, and certainly not about things this important.

 

[Keepingthefaith21]

I just went though a similar situation with my SO. I think I understand your anxiety in having a talk with him: you are afraid of pushing him away. It’s funny because I hear a lot of ladies say similar things and feel that if they speak up, their BF’s are going to freak out on them and run away screaming. I am sure there have a been a few men who have done this but I think generally speaking (or at least in my experience and observation among friends) most men are open to having an adult discussion about where your relationship is heading especially after a considerable length of time together.

However, allow me to emphasis the adult portion of the discussion. Temper tantrums aren’t going to fly (I mean, would you really listen to him if he was standing across from you crying?). Comparing your relationship to other couples probably isn’t a great idea either. When it came time for my SO and I to have our talk, we sat at the dining room table and I very calmly explained my thoughts: we own a home together, we make decisions as a married couple would, we want a family together…we’re basically hovering at the finish line. All I wanted to know from him was what it would take for us to just cross the line. I’ll admit, the conversation got difficult at times…after all, as a rather sensitive gal, I find myself crying over Hallmark commercials so you can only imagine the number of times I felt tears coming on when trying to have such a big talk. When I felt myself losing control of my emotions, I walked away from the conversation. When he felt himself getting frustrated or angry, he did the same. The conversation was painfully long to have but we both kept our heads level which ultimately allowed us to understand each other much better.

My secret weapon: before I even began the talk with him, I had confirmed to myself that although I do love him and do want to spend the rest of my life with him I knew in my heart I was okay with needing to leave and stand on my own two feet if he was not on the same page as me. As some ladies on this board can attest to, sometimes you have to be willing to turn away to show how serious you are about what YOU want out of YOUR life.

 

[BrilliantNikki]

OKAY - so I have to vent really quickly that I just typed up a very long update re: the results of my discussion with BF this past weekend and the company I work for just rebooted my computer and I lost the entire thing!! Erg!

Well anyway, I will retype it up and send it out later today.

In the meantime, I will extinguish any hopes that I have an announcement to make. I am still on the list ladies

 

[repartee]

Damn technology!

*waiting*

*blink blink*

 

[BrilliantNikki]

UPDATE:

So, while we were on your mini vacation I talked to my BF about where our future was going in regards to timing. It was pretty easy to actually get the conversation going (I was surprised!) because we happened to be visiting an area where we have talked numerous times about moving to so that we could raise a family there.

I found it easiest to work backwards for the timeline. We always talk about having kids and I just went ahead and asked him when we plan on doing that. I also expressed my concern that I have always wanted to be finished having children by the time I turn thirty and that it seemed that it was highly unlikely at the pace we are going that I would reach that goal.

We actually sat down and plotted out (in Excel – I am such a dork) what the next five years might look like for us. And he wanted to make sure that we plotted out what having two kids by thirty would look like.

If we DID have two kids in that time span and have a 1-2 year engagement then by HIS deductions we should have gotten engaged last October. I personally found that quite ironic. I was really glad that we sat down and figured all of this out, especially because (like I told him) left to his own devices we would get engaged on my 29th birthday, married three months later and I’d be giving birth on my 30th birthday. Which according to him was “having kids by thirty.” – Not quite what I had in mind. BUT, it seems that once he started really thinking about it with me he realized that we really did need to get a move on.

The only bummer about this conversation was his reluctance to give me a timeline for getting engaged. He did admit that we should already be engaged but wouldn’t tell me when we would be engaged. It seems to me that he still has romanticized notions about proposing and wants it to be a surprise to me; which for all intents and purposes I can appreciate. While I am antsy as hell about getting a move on I still want him to sweep me off my feet and all that jazz.

So all in all I am pretty pleased with the result of my probing – I still don’t know when things will happen but at least I know that he is thinking about it and feeling that he should work with some haste.

Thank you ladies for you help and I will continue to post about our progress!

 

[Sabine]

It''s great that you worked out a possible timeline for your future together. However, I hear you say that your bf knows that YOU want to have kids by 30, but you didn''t mention whether he agree and that HE wanted kids at that point, or even whether he wanted to get married before then. You said he agree that you SHOULD have gotten engaged, but again, not whether he actually WANTS to get engaged. Has he actually told you want he wants?