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Finally, an appraiser that knows!

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jszweda

Shiny_Rock
Joined
Sep 17, 2005
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I thought I would update you guys on my quest for an appraiser. The items came back lower than I expected, but they did appraise for more than the agreed upon price for both items. So on that note, I can''t complain.
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I had gone to several places, and nobody wanted to say what both stones were. One is mine, and one is my mothers. There were places in which I went to, and I would show the smaller of the two, and pending on what they said on that, I would then show them the larger of the two.

So what in the world was it that I never said what it was and what was the magical inclusion?
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They are both tourmalines, and nobody disputed that except for one place in which I think that there was something wrong with her equipment, and even she said it was tourmaline for sure. Nobody would say what type of tourmaline it was though. The one place was a little snobby, and I could tell he never louped the thing.

Had these people louped it, they would have seen what appears to be inclusions of tenonite. In laymans terms, CuO2 or cupric oxide needles were visible in a laminar direction. Nobody I know of understands the LMHC definition of these things, and I looked that up. I also went as far as to get in touch with GIA and ask for some imagery for inclusions in tourmaline that are tenonite. The reference desk said that they did not know of anything that was a tourmaline that had tenonite in it except for the copper bearing or "paraiba" tourmalines.

I ordered 2 back issues of Gems and Gemology in which they had micrographs of the inclusions I was trying to confirm. I think what I saw under the loupe was better, but there were consistencies with what I was saying, and what GIA has published in other articles. There is no other indicolite or verdalite that contains tenonite. The only tourmaline that I could find that contains that are the famed paraiba''s.

I have an appraisal on each item from a GG. The smaller of the 2 stones is a little over 5 carats, and the larger of the 2 is a little over 8 carats. When you see them in diffused ambient light, they do have a flurescence to them. Mom''s is a light pool water color, and mine is more on the green side. However in the right light, mine looks like a slightly green pool water color.

In flourescent light, mine does show some strong flurescent blue undertones pending the bulbs color temperature. Under halogen lighting, it''s more of a yellowish green. The crown will appear a more electric green under stronger quartz halogen lights. Mom''s doesn''t have quite as strong of a pleocrhoism, but it can exhibit a little bit of green under the right lighting conditions-however blue is the dominant color in hers from my observation.

The stones were disclosed as being from Mozambique, and based on what I can find, I have no reason to doubt that. They are in fact copper bearing and stated as "paraiba". It''s not the super intense colors like you see from Brazil, but it is a lovely color and it is quite distinctive.

Now if I could only find my AutoCAD disk so I can model a generic shank so I could pencil in all the other details, I could get a wax model going for her!
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Hi Joe,

So glad you finally found out.

What is your mom going to have hers mounted in???

Linda
 
Date: 3/26/2008 4:40:56 PM
Author: Linda W
Hi Joe,

So glad you finally found out.

What is your mom going to have hers mounted in???

Linda
She saw a mounting for hers that she kinda liked, the problem is that they would have to open up the head and rework the basket. Even then, it doesn''t look quite right.

What I was thinking of doing was sketching out a version of the one she liked with some channel sets along the shoulders, and make a variated cathedral mount for it. It''s going to have a high profile no matter what you do because of the sheer size of the thing.

The mounting she saw that she was thinking about has some raised releif along the profile and some channel set diamonds along the shoulder. They would have to open the head up, replace the basket, build a bridge and then size it. After doing that, those channel sets would roll down towards the shank by the time you go through all of that.

I have another idea myself, but I can''t find my AutoCAD disk to model the basic shank. I might use some other 3D modeling software just to get a shank shaped and come up with a few ideas, and then pencil in the rest with the patterns and such.

Oh, I almost forgot. The mounting itself is going to be in white gold, solid cast. The one she saw is in 18K.
 
Sounds beautiful Joe. You will have to show us pictures when it is complete.

Linda
 
Out of curiosity, what test did the Gemologist that did your appraisal use to conclude that your tourmaline is in fact copper bearing?
 
Date: 3/27/2008 12:12:56 AM
Author: The Mole
Out of curiosity, what test did the Gemologist that did your appraisal use to conclude that your tourmaline is in fact copper bearing?
It doesn''t say what test they specificlly used, but I know they could readily determine that it is in fact a tourmaline. As for the copper bearing part, do you know of any other tourmaline that has visible copper needle inclusions in it? GIA doesn''t know of any other variety either, and I have samples of micrographs from there that aren''t as good as what I could see under a loupe.

I am guessing they went by that. I spoke with another GG, and they told me that the presence of that is enough imperical evidence to say that it is copper bearing.
 
Just because of the large value differential between this type of variety call, I would highly recommend sending these stones to a credible laboratory like AGTA for verification. The reason that I asked is that it is my understanding that the term "copper bearing" is determined by chemical composition and not by micrography.

Take a look at this link. It contains Gueblin Labs policy on identification of Paraiba Tourmaline.

http://www.palagems.com/paraiba.htm#followup2



Hope this helps...
 
Date: 3/27/2008 12:40:49 AM
Author: The Mole
Just because of the large value differential between this type of variety call, I would highly recommend sending these stones to a credible laboratory like AGTA for verification. The reason that I asked is that it is my understanding that the term ''copper bearing'' is determined by chemical composition and not by micrography.

Take a look at this link. It contains Gueblin Labs policy on identification of Paraiba Tourmaline.

http://www.palagems.com/paraiba.htm#followup2



Hope this helps...
I''ve read that before..thanks anyways. That may be the policy of Gubelin. However, in the course of that, you can determine the origin since the concentration of copper in the stone and the presence of certain trace elements as galium and lead can be used to determine the exact origin. If you wanted to determine the origin of the stone, then yeah...a chemical test would be in order.

Realistically though, you could view the stone and tell it''s not indicolite. It''s not verdilite, and again..there is no other tourmaline that I am aware of that has tenonite in it. That''s something that GIA has pointed out and they have illustrated that in Gems and Gemology.

Now, if those inclusions weren''t there, and you couldn''t see that under a loupe or microscope, then I would say a chemical composition might be in order. If you compared either stone to say an indicolite or a verdilite, there are obvious visual differences that say this is neither. I guess process of elimination is in order and some visual inspection.
 
If only it were so easy...
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It seems that chemical composition is used for more than just origin. I will post the first point again.

All tourmalines with “paraiba-like” colours are tested for their required chemical composition to qualify [as] cuprian elbaite.


As I said I would highly recommend sending the stones to a lab for verificatiion. The stones as you say are large and definately offset the cost of a report. This will only add providence to your stones.


Good luck!
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Don''t Paraibas have to contain Mn as well?
 
Date: 3/27/2008 10:57:46 AM
Author: Harriet
Don''t Paraibas have to contain Mn as well?
That was my understanding as well...
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Date: 3/27/2008 1:09:36 AM
Author: The Mole
If only it were so easy...
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It seems that chemical composition is used for more than just origin. I will post the first point again.

All tourmalines with “paraiba-like” colours are tested for their required chemical composition to qualify [as] cuprian elbaite.


As I said I would highly recommend sending the stones to a lab for verificatiion. The stones as you say are large and definately offset the cost of a report. This will only add providence to your stones.


Good luck!
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Agreed. If truly Paraibas, I would send the stones to AGTA for verification; the payoff will be great especially for stones above 3 cts. It does not take very long either.
 
Date: 3/27/2008 10:57:46 AM
Author: Harriet
Don''t Paraibas have to contain Mn as well?
It does exist as a trace element. It''s not the main coloring agent, but I think they included that as there are those from Mozambique that have a higher concentration of these things in them that color them to be purple and pink, etc.

Oddly enough though, if you read various reports from various places, one of the things that distinguishes the Nigerian material is that it lacks a lot of the other trace elements that the Brazillian and Mozambique material has.

Regardless, if you look at this one healed fracture under incadescent light at just the right angle, you can see some very small specs of fuschia-which are attributable to Mn.

What is perhaps more interesting, chemically speaking with some exceptions, the Brazillian material has less copper and maganeese in it compared to the other localities for the same thing. That Brazillian stuff has a load more of a gazillion other trace elements in it though.
 
Date: 3/27/2008 11:58:27 AM
Author: Chrono

Date: 3/27/2008 1:09:36 AM
Author: The Mole
If only it were so easy...
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It seems that chemical composition is used for more than just origin. I will post the first point again.

All tourmalines with “paraiba-like” colours are tested for their required chemical composition to qualify [as] cuprian elbaite.


As I said I would highly recommend sending the stones to a lab for verificatiion. The stones as you say are large and definately offset the cost of a report. This will only add providence to your stones.


Good luck!
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Agreed. If truly Paraibas, I would send the stones to AGTA for verification; the payoff will be great especially for stones above 3 cts. It does not take very long either.
Personally, if I were to sent those off to a lab, it would not be AGTA for 2 reasons. One, Gubelin is cheaper. Secondly, I read somewhere that there has been some dispute (I think it was Colored Stone online that wrote this or the other site by that guy who runs the Vegas show) internally within AGTA as to the LMHC definition of paraiba tourmaline.

It has been alleged that certain entities within AGTA have created strife within that particular lab in conforming to the LMHC definition. The reason alleged has been because certain people in that lab supposedly have a vested interest in the outcome of that.

After I read that, and other things like it, I emailed AGTA directly and asked them about that and what their policy is, and their adoptation of the LMHC definition. Some of the things in publication could be dated and certain things that may have changed since may not have been published. So I emailed them and asked them.

I have yet to see a written response from them, nor have I gotten a fee schedule from them directly. I had to go through other sources aside from AGTA to find their price schedule. So given that, and given the controversy surrounding the LMHC definition, and too many people with too many vested interests, for that particular stone, I wouldn''t send it to there. There has been questions as to their independence on that matter alone.

It is also worthy to note that at the conference lead by the LMHC at the Gemological Institute of Thailand recently, the controversy became quite heated. I read that it was so bad, that when the propsed verbige came into discussion, the LMHC basically said to everyone involved, do whatever you want and left it at that.

Based on what we know though about these things, what is the possibility of a given tourmaline bearing tenonite inclusions that wouldn''t have any detectable level of maganeese in it? Has there ever been such an item recorded?
 
My understanding is that the stone must not only contain copper but it must glow in order to be called a paraiba, otherwise it is just a cuprite tourmaline. My paraiba has copper rutile needles and glows as though it has its own internal battery. I hear that the Brazilian paraibas also contain gold? My gut feel is that there may be a combination of minerals that attribute to the glow factor, not just copper.
 
Date: 3/27/2008 1:49:18 PM
Author: Chrono
My understanding is that the stone must not only contain copper but it must glow in order to be called a paraiba, otherwise it is just a cuprite tourmaline. My paraiba has copper rutile needles and glows as though it has its own internal battery. I hear that the Brazilian paraibas also contain gold? My gut feel is that there may be a combination of minerals that attribute to the glow factor, not just copper.

Hey Chrono,

Someone sent me a link to this interesting article. Talks a little bit about the chemical composition and what elements contribute to different colors.


http://www.minrec.org/pdfs/TheMineralogicalRecord_CuprianElbaite.pdf
 
I have great respect for both Gueblin and AGTA.

If you are in the US, the problem with Gueblin labs is the shipping, which you should look into before sending out your stones. This could just balance out the cost differential between the two labs, as well as the security of said shipment during transit.

You seem determined to believe that the Pariaba variety call of Tourmaline can be accomplished with simple magnification. I''m glad that you finally found an appraiser that will agree with you.

Congrats on your stones! I hope that you and your mother wear them in health and happiness!
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Please excuse my straightforwardness, but are you looking for an appraiser with knowledge or one who agrees with you?
 
This GIA reference which I believe you have cited mentions tenorite in the size of 30 µm and dendritic copper in the range of 1 µm whereas a red blood corpuscle is only about 7 µm in size. To accurately identify a mineral inclusion, of that small size, requires high magnification and specific inclusion studies. Even GIA used electron microprobe analysis to confirm it as copper bearing. If it is just for your own satisfaction, go with it. If it is to use for an insurance policy or for selling, the postings recommending lab confirmation are being smart in the long run. JMHO

Jim
 
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