Freedom of speech?????????

[ruby59]

http://www.theblaze.com/news/2017/02/01/teacher-berates-7th-graders-pro-trump-shirt-compares-it-to-swastika-and-that-was-the-last-straw/

 

[luv2sparkle]

Hey, sounds just like PS!

 

[AGBF]

Teaching school is not easy. One has to walk a tightrope. Good teachers try very hard to make their classrooms places where children and adolescents can actually learn, not simply be indoctrinated.

AGBF

 

[telephone89]

I think it's actually very similar to a swastika. An innocent symbol (or words), used by a hateful person that have now become incredibly racist and hurtful. If there was a child with undocumented family in the country that would be very upsetting. Doesn't make the bullying ok, but yeah. Just wanted to address the swastika comment.

 

[momhappy]

This particular issue is more complicated because while it's political, it's also related to school dress codes (which most schools have now days). Most dress codes indicate that students can't wear graphic/offensive shirts, so I guess that one could argue that his shirt was offensive. I'm not saying it's right or wrong, just saying that it could be interpreted that way. As far as a teacher comparing it to a swastika, I think it's clear that the teacher was not a Trump fan and that was the motivation for the censorship. I do not agree that it's comparable to a swastika and I wouldn't say it's fair to say that the boy wearing the shirt is a "hateful" person.... I think the teacher handled it poorly. However, the main goal in school is to get an education and if clothing (any clothing) is a distraction, then it shouldn't be worn.

 

[Tekate]

http://www.theblaze.com/news/2017/02/01/teacher-berates-7th-graders-pro-trump-shirt-compares-it-to-swastika-and-that-was-the-last-straw/

Well, if you want your kid to be ostracized allow him to wear a 'Build the Wall' t shirt.. that statement is NOT unifying nor is it appropriate for school. In the same vein, would you allow your kid to wear a tshirt that says 'Grab the Pussy!" I mean that shows support for Trumpie too. How do you feel about kids wearing gang t shirts? The ones that incite kids to hate?

The kid has the right to wear the shirt, but what comes down to him from other kids is what kids do..

In my sons schools in Texas you were not allowed to wear tshirts with anything on them, no bud lite, no red tshirts with gang signs on them.

We should be better than to support our kids hateful words. But again, he has that right to wear the divisive t shirt.

 

[ksinger]

Yes to the distraction presented to a class of middle schoolers, by a shirt that would cause strong feelings in adults. As my husband said when I told him of this yesterday....

"(snort)....first of all, if it gets to a certain point admin generally interviews the other kids in the class as to what was said", (the article was only talking about what the kid said the teacher said - likely away from other kids so there can be no corroboration), and what mom said the kid said the teacher said - lot of he-said-she-said going on here), and "They're middle schoolers - they are upset and distracted by humidity changes, crickets, and dust motes. They're worse than cats."

And another thing, we talk about free speech rights of kids, well, teachers do not actually give up their own free speech rights when they enter the school building. Granted it can be a gray area and tricky to navigate while there, but this is something to keep in mind.

 

[momhappy]

This thread reminded me of another thread a while back that involved teachers wearing their BLM shirts to school. My opinion is the same across the board....if a piece of clothing is a distraction in class, it shouldn't be worn (and that includes students and school staff). I don't think a student should wear a "Trump - Build the Wall" shirt any more than a teacher show;d wear a BLM shirt.

 

[House Cat]

I wonder how the Mexican children felt while this young man flaunted his "build the wall" t-shirt. Maybe this teacher was witnessing some hurt feelings or sick stomachs on their parts. Like it or not, this kid WAS perpetrating against a certain population when he was wearing this shirt to school.

Of course, because it is written by the Blaze, this article is one sided.

 

[bunnycat]

This thread reminded me of another thread a while back that involved teachers wearing their BLM shirts to school. My opinion is the same across the board....if a piece of clothing is a distraction in class, it shouldn't be worn (and that includes students and school staff). I don't think a student should wear a "Trump - Build the Wall" shirt any more than a teacher show;d wear a BLM shirt.

I'm in agreement with momhappy on this.

 

[AnnaH]

Agree with MomH and Bunny, no distracting clothing. No BLM or Wall or I'm w/her. That's the rule in many, if not most, schools. However, if it's accurate that a teacher wore a Hillary shirt, then the kid should not have been disaplined.
That said, I'm not a fan of yard signs and bumper stickers, either. Don't know that I've ever seen a lot of that, but almost none this election. Have not seen a single Trump hat.

 

[redwood66]

With the way things have been this election there should have been no political type clothing in an elementary school, by teachers or students. The he said/she said is hard to discern in these situations which is disheartening.

 

[AnnaH]

Red, you were missed!

 

[smitcompton]

Hi,

Red, I , too, am glad you're back. I didn't catch what was written, but I'm sorry you felt bad.

Annette

 

[momhappy]

Hi Red I've not been posting much here lately, so I wasn't sure if you have been back for a while...

 

[redwood66]

Hi ladies! Thank you! I am just back today after my hiatus.

I'll take this opportunity to apologize for my lack of self control and that you had to read it. I did read all the nice comments though and appreciate it.

 

[Arcadian]

I agree that political shirts have do not belong in a school where they can cause disruption on the part of students and teachers.

But hey I feel the same way about religious paraphernalia too. Too distracting, too hot button, has no place.

 

[the_mother_thing]

I think it's actually very similar to a swastika. An innocent symbol (or words), used by a hateful person that have now become incredibly racist and hurtful. If there was a child with undocumented family in the country that would be very upsetting. Doesn't make the bullying ok, but yeah. Just wanted to address the swastika comment.

But, but, but ... wouldn't the teacher's comment re: the swastika be a 'red herring' (aside from such an insensitive & illogical comparison)?

Regardless, while the final 'wall' plans aren't available yet for public review, I'm assuming they don't/won't involve erecting camps for mass genocide. But if you or someone else has evidence to the contrary, please do share it because that would sway my opinions on the prez's immigration strategy.

“She asked, ‘How would you feel if someone wore a T-shirt with a swastika on it?’” Fischer told the paper. “He said, ‘You can’t compare my shirt to wearing a swastika. They aren’t the same thing.’”

Fischer told the Herald that Jack’s teacher asked him to stay in her class during lunch to talk about his shirt. Kennewick School District officials told the paper Jack wasn’t forced to do so, in contrast to some claims on social media.

During their chat, the teacher reportedly told Jack wearing clothes with political messages was inappropriate, the Herald said — but Jack added that he saw a math teacher wearing a Barack Obama shirt.

And then, when the teacher didn't win her argument ... ... she sought other 'angles' from which to try belittle & squash his views. Perhaps she should have stuck to curriculum vs. political banter.

Hey, sounds just like PS!

Yep!

No public admission of fault/wrongdoing, apology, etc. Just a little detail buried in an obscure news outlet: (http://www.tri-cityherald.com/news/local/education/article129304414.html):

Later, Fischer spoke with Chinook’s Principal Kevin Pierce, and was told there wasn’t anything wrong with the shirt.

 

[Tekate]

With the way things have been this election there should have been no political type clothing in an elementary school, by teachers or students. The he said/she said is hard to discern in these situations which is disheartening.

I'm so happy to see you I agree with you.

 

[the_mother_thing]

Hi ladies! Thank you! I am just back today after my hiatus.

Welcome back!

 

[bunnycat]

But, but, but ... wouldn't the teacher's comment re: the swastika be a 'red herring' (aside from such an insensitive & illogical comparison)?

=> During their chat, the teacher reportedly told Jack wearing clothes with political messages was inappropriate, the Herald said — but Jack added that he saw a math teacher wearing a Barack Obama shirt.<=

Actually, the bolded part is the red herring. An analogy and a red herring are two differnt things. The red herring argument is the classic one seen so often of "so and so did it so that proves I can do it to...." or "you can't say such and such is wrong because look at x and y that happened before"

From a list of logical fallacies:

"Attempting to redirect the argument to another issue that to which the person doing the redirecting can better respond. While it is similar to the avoiding the issue fallacy, the red herring is a deliberate diversion of attention with the intention of trying to abandon the original argument."

 

[the_mother_thing]

But, but, but ... wouldn't the teacher's comment re: the swastika be a 'red herring' (aside from such an insensitive & illogical comparison)?

=> During their chat, the teacher reportedly told Jack wearing clothes with political messages was inappropriate, the Herald said — but Jack added that he saw a math teacher wearing a Barack Obama shirt.<=

Actually, the bolded part is the red herring. An analogy and a red herring are two differnt things. The red herring argument is the classic one seen so often of "so and so did it so that proves I can do it to...." or "you can't say such and such is wrong because look at x and y that happened before"

From a list of logical fallacies:

"Attempting to redirect the argument to another issue that to which the person doing the redirecting can better respond. While it is similar to the avoiding the issue fallacy, the red herring is a deliberate diversion of attention with the intention of trying to abandon the original argument."

Maybe it was a comparative analogy AND a red herring.
https://literarydevices.net/red-herring/

Red herring is a kind of fallacy that is an irrelevant topic introduced in an argument to divert the attention of listeners or readers from the original issue. In literature, this fallacy is often used in detective or suspense novels to mislead readers or characters or to induce them to make false conclusions.

 

[bunnycat]

But, but, but ... wouldn't the teacher's comment re: the swastika be a 'red herring' (aside from such an insensitive & illogical comparison)?

=> During their chat, the teacher reportedly told Jack wearing clothes with political messages was inappropriate, the Herald said — but Jack added that he saw a math teacher wearing a Barack Obama shirt.<=

Actually, the bolded part is the red herring. An analogy and a red herring are two differnt things. The red herring argument is the classic one seen so often of "so and so did it so that proves I can do it to...." or "you can't say such and such is wrong because look at x and y that happened before"

From a list of logical fallacies:

"Attempting to redirect the argument to another issue that to which the person doing the redirecting can better respond. While it is similar to the avoiding the issue fallacy, the red herring is a deliberate diversion of attention with the intention of trying to abandon the original argument."

Maybe it was a comparative analogy AND a red herring.
https://literarydevices.net/red-herring/

Red herring is a kind of fallacy that is an irrelevant topic introduced in an argument to divert the attention of listeners or readers from the original issue. In literature, this fallacy is often used in detective or suspense novels to mislead readers or characters or to induce them to make false conclusions.

Either way- the teachers approach needed work. I'd have kept it to simple "school policy". Any back talk and you can go visit the principle. Best to leave personal feeling out of it. Middle schoolers are walking pods of emotion and hormones as it is.

 

[the_mother_thing]

Middle schoolers are walking pods of emotion and hormones as it is.

Ain't that the ever loving, stinking truth!

 

[ruby59]

I agree that political shirts have do not belong in a school where they can cause disruption on the part of students and teachers.

But hey I feel the same way about religious paraphernalia too. Too distracting, too hot button, has no place.

When I was no more then a very young child, I was given a Star of David necklace that I have never taken off.

It is a part of who I am that I would never remove.

 

[ruby59]

But, but, but ... wouldn't the teacher's comment re: the swastika be a 'red herring' (aside from such an insensitive & illogical comparison)?

=> During their chat, the teacher reportedly told Jack wearing clothes with political messages was inappropriate, the Herald said — but Jack added that he saw a math teacher wearing a Barack Obama shirt.<=

Actually, the bolded part is the red herring. An analogy and a red herring are two differnt things. The red herring argument is the classic one seen so often of "so and so did it so that proves I can do it to...." or "you can't say such and such is wrong because look at x and y that happened before"

From a list of logical fallacies:

"Attempting to redirect the argument to another issue that to which the person doing the redirecting can better respond. While it is similar to the avoiding the issue fallacy, the red herring is a deliberate diversion of attention with the intention of trying to abandon the original argument."

Maybe it was a comparative analogy AND a red herring.
https://literarydevices.net/red-herring/

Red herring is a kind of fallacy that is an irrelevant topic introduced in an argument to divert the attention of listeners or readers from the original issue. In literature, this fallacy is often used in detective or suspense novels to mislead readers or characters or to induce them to make false conclusions.

Either way- the teachers approach needed work. I'd have kept it to simple "school policy". Any back talk and you can go visit the principle. Best to leave personal feeling out of it. Middle schoolers are walking pods of emotion and hormones as it is.

Too bad it is not that simple. Kids seem to have more rights then the teacher and they know it. Try to discipline a middle schooler without getting something thrown at you. And if a teacher touches him, he/she will get suspended.

 

[ksinger]

Too bad it is not that simple. Kids seem to have more rights then the teacher and they know it. Try to discipline a middle schooler without getting something thrown at you. And if a teacher touches him, he/she will get suspended.

You're right, no school is simple, or cut and dried. But your other statements here are blanket and just...wrong. Middle schoolers can be and are, controlled all day long without items getting hurled. They can be touched to the point of being picked up and physically moved or restrained, when necessary, so that whole business of can't touch 'em, is bogus. Now, if the type of touching you're thinking of, includes wailing on them, then no, you can't do that. But then teachers are not technically supposed to be in the business of determining and administering disciplinary actions anyway, even if classroom control does tend to overlap a bit where discipline is concerned.

 

[lovedogs]

Too bad it is not that simple. Kids seem to have more rights then the teacher and they know it. Try to discipline a middle schooler without getting something thrown at you. And if a teacher touches him, he/she will get suspended.

You're right, no school is simple, or cut and dried. But your other statements here are blanket and just...wrong. Middle schoolers can be and are, controlled all day long without items getting hurled. They can be touched to the point of being picked up and physically moved or restrained, when necessary, so that whole business of can't touch 'em, is bogus. Now, if the type of touching you're thinking of, includes wailing on them, then no, you can't do that. But then teachers are not technically supposed to be in the business of determining and administering disciplinary actions anyway, even if classroom control does tend to overlap a bit where discipline is concerned.

Yup, can confirm that things don't regularly get thrown (I've worked with that age group a great deal--and many of them with disabilities). Restraining (when necessary) is entirely fine and used when children are dangerous to themselves or others.

 

[redwood66]

With the way things have been this election there should have been no political type clothing in an elementary school, by teachers or students. The he said/she said is hard to discern in these situations which is disheartening.

I'm so happy to see you I agree with you.

Aww. Thank you.

 

[redwood66]

Hi ladies! Thank you! I am just back today after my hiatus.

Welcome back!

Glad to be back to help out.