Gemstone show - the best option?

[sapphiredream]

Would you say that attending a gemstone show might provide the highest odds of coming across a nice sapphire at a fair price? I think there is something irrepleaceable about being able to see and compare side by side.

I am considering holding off on a sapphire ring project until March when a gem and mineral show is scheduled in my area.
Then again, I have no idea if they will have sapphires there.

With a project like finding a nice sapphire stone in the 2-3 carat range (vibrant color, sparkly cut) at a fair price - the online buying process can be excruciating.

Trying to guess online what stone is worth ordering to take a look at in the first place, then shipping back and forth becomes costly... plus the nervousness that invariably accompanies this process when so much money is being flown around, with the risk of package getting lost and then having to go through the insurance claim hassle.

After quite a lot of education and extensive research here and on 1000 gem sites - this has become tiring and frustrating.
No longer fun.

Briefly, would you recommend waiting for a show in the region?

 

[marymm]

No, I don't think a show is the best place to count on finding your sapphire, unless you know of specific vendors coming in and can contact them ahead of time to ensure they bring in sapphires meeting your prereqs. "Nice" sapphire and "fair" price are rather subjective too ... if you know what you want, have you already started a "help me find" thread here in the CS forum? That said, any gemstone show is worth attending if only to further educate and delight your eyes; and if you find something you like, more the better. Returns can be tricky though, and I for one can feel some pressure to buy (something, anything) if I'm at a gem show.

 

[elle_71125]

I think that a gem show is a great way to look around and see many beautiful gems but I wouldn't recommend buying anything, unless you are very confident in your purchase. Returns are difficult. There's also the feeling that you have to buy something today or you'll be missing out...which can cause you to spend to much or make mistakes.

Instead, I would recommend starting up a thread with what you're looking for and your budget. There are a lot of people here happy to help you find the perfect gem for you.

 

[sapphiredream]

No, I don't think a show is the best place to count on finding your sapphire, unless you know of specific vendors coming in and can contact them ahead of time to ensure they bring in sapphires meeting your prereqs. "Nice" sapphire and "fair" price are rather subjective too ... if you know what you want, have you already started a "help me find" thread here in the CS forum? That said, any gemstone show is worth attending if only to further educate and delight your eyes; and if you find something you like, more the better. Returns can be tricky though, and I for one can feel some pressure to buy (something, anything) if I'm at a gem show.

Hmmm...interesting points.

I have not started a specific thread for a general sapphire stone search; only one for a pre-owned ring in "Pre-loved" section; but that's a difficult route.

Even if I do - I still have to do the scenario where I order in stones, one by one, to take a look at them, then send back.

 

[Seaglow]

The gem show is worth a shot. Many dealers and wholesalers only sell at gem shows such as Tucson where end users can have access to the goods. The wholesalers I've known do have markets they cater to. Some more in China, some in Japan, some for western countries. You'd see more variety and you can get harder to find gemstones. However, returns might be trickier as dealers from gem mining and trading countries participate and fly to the show, and leave after and go back to their respective countries after the show. But do get contacts as some can have stocks of what you need or new stones that you might like in the future. Prices are all over, if you are lucky, you can get wholesale or first dealer prices that are better than online prices but some also charge to the roof so it's everyone's ballgame.

 

[digdeep]

It depends on what you mean by 'gem show'............there is an organization called International Gem and Jewelry Show which has shows around the country and is totally different than the Tucson mega show. Feel free to go as a spectator but beware that these vendors may not honor returns or anything related to their sales. The best bet is to do some searching online....or take a break! Return when you are rested, and order a returnable gem if it ticks the boxes you want. The chances of finding a perfect gem at a perfect price and having that corroborated by AGL after the fact at a gem show without an expert working on your behalf, seem to be pretty small. Just something to consider........again, take a break to get a clearer view and enlist the searcher's of PS.

 

[T L]

I would never buy a sapphire from a gemshow unless it was

1) a vendor I trust and I know
2) has a rock solid return policy
3) comes with a highly reputable lab report that completely rules out all invasive treatment. A lab report that says something like "indication of heating" DOES NOT rule out other forms of treatment.

 

[Burmesedaze]

I would say I go to gem shows with a wishlist in mind but end up getting other stuff. Depending on the deals available and individual sellers. Some are really offputting and are out to fleece or downright dismissive. You have to know what you are seeing and have a ballpark figure in mind.

I end up with other stuff because these are the better deals from sellers that are nicer to discuss and strike up a convo with.

 

[sapphiredream]

I would never buy a sapphire from a gemshow unless it was

1) a vendor I trust and I know
2) has a rock solid return policy
3) comes with a highly reputable lab report that completely rules out all invasive treatment. A lab report that says something like "indication of heating" DOES NOT rule out other forms of treatment.

Does that mean online - vendors vetted here?
I don't personally know any vendors - so I am not sure who I can trust and who I can't.

I will definitely not rush into purchasing a sapphire but I wouldn't mind making some progress towards the final goal as I have been waiting for over 15 years now.
I will start a search thread soon with specifics.

At this point, I am just wondering what kind of budget would a high quality 3 ct sapphire require, roughly?
By "high quality" I mean vibrant blue color that doesn't gray/blacken up in low light, sparkly/precision cut and no offensive inclusions, heat only OK.

 

[arkieb1]

I would never buy a sapphire from a gemshow unless it was

1) a vendor I trust and I know
2) has a rock solid return policy
3) comes with a highly reputable lab report that completely rules out all invasive treatment. A lab report that says something like "indication of heating" DOES NOT rule out other forms of treatment.

This exactly - buying at gemshows is fine provided that you can return the item for a full refund if it comes back from a lab as something other than what it was sold to you as.

 

[chroman]

It might be a good opportunity to see a wide variety of stones in person, even if theres nothing worth buying. If you've been trying to develop your eye by looking at online photos, seeing things in person can be very helpful in correlating a photo to actual appearance.

Will you likely find the stone of your dreams at a local intergem show? My guess is no, but it can still be a fun and insightful experience!

 

[T L]

Does that mean online - vendors vetted here?
I don't personally know any vendors - so I am not sure who I can trust and who I can't.

I will definitely not rush into purchasing a sapphire but I wouldn't mind making some progress towards the final goal as I have been waiting for over 15 years now.
I will start a search thread soon with specifics.

At this point, I am just wondering what kind of budget would a high quality 3 ct sapphire require, roughly?
By "high quality" I mean vibrant blue color that doesn't gray/blacken up in low light, sparkly/precision cut and no offensive inclusions, heat only OK.

Sapphires, and rubies for that matter, are one of the the most difficult gems to buy because there are so many kinds of treatment they take, and many of those treatments are not detectable without super advanced high end equipment. Most labs can't afford some of this equipment. However, any vendor can produce a lab report with missing data on treatment, and the consumer is under the false pretense that all is good. For example, I bought a sapphire with indications of heating that had an AIGS report. AGL then had to test it with a mass spectrometer ($$$$$ machine), to determine NO diffusion. AIGS would and could not confirm the latter treatment.

Say you go to a gem show and buy a stone, many of those dealers are not very trustworthy and "disappear" until the next gem show. Without going into details, I learned that the hard way,

That being said, some on PS have had great luck with certain vendors, and they may recommend some to you.

The good news is at least you want a blue sapphire, and it's much easier to discern good color than say that of a padparadcha sapphire. The latter, in my opinion, is the most difficult gem to evaluate for quality and treatment.

 

[Seaglow]

Sapphires, and rubies for that matter, are one of the the most difficult gems to buy because there are so many kinds of treatment they take, and many of those treatments are not detectable without super advanced high end equipment. Most labs can't afford some of this equipment. However, any vendor can produce a lab report with missing data on treatment, and the consumer is under the false pretense that all is good. For example, I bought a sapphire with indications of heating that had an AIGS report. AGL then had to test it with a mass spectrometer ($$$$$ machine), to determine NO diffusion. AIGS would and could not confirm the latter treatment.

Say you go to a gem show and buy a stone, many of those dealers are not very trustworthy and "disappear" until the next gem show. Without going into details, I learned that the hard way,

That being said, some on PS have had great luck with certain vendors, and they may recommend some to you.

The good news is at least you want a blue sapphire, and it's much easier to discern good color than say that of a padparadcha sapphire. The latter, in my opinion, is the most difficult gem to evaluate for quality and treatment.

Sorry to hear about your AIGS report experience. Actually, AIGS can do LIBS testing and can determine diffusion. The thing is, they do it on an optional basis for an extra cost. It is up to those who want a report to have it done or not. Thus, they indicate in the report LIBS tested or not LIBS tested. Because the service is optional, it is possible that sellers who are not upfront about the diffused goods can get an AIGS report without LIBS testing.

I agree on padparadscha. So many unattractive colored stones claimed as padparadscha.

 

[sapphiredream]

Thank you all. Great information.

So the show would be more for seeing and learning purposes - but actual purchasing would still have to be done online, through ordering, inspecting and sending back ...until you get lucky and come across just the right one.
So the hassle is still there.

It seems to me though that even if I learn at a show, my problem would still remain.
Sure, I will see real stones IRL at the show - but how would I know how a stone I saw there would have looked online in vendor pictures so I know what to look for when I order in online?

Based on everything I learned over the past few weeks on this board, I think I am starting to get a pretty good theoretical idea of what a desirable sapphire would look like (per market standards).

Vibrant, smouldering blue that doesn't go flat/dark in low light.
I am yet to see one such stone in reality in terms of color - though I DID see how a sapphire can be cut to maximize sparkle.

I recently saw one at home from Dana (mastercutgems). While the stone didn't work out due to an inclusion I'd hoped I could live with (but couldn't) and due to size looking smaller than I'd hoped on my hand - the cut was EXCELLENT.

That little imperfect thing, despite its visible discoid inclusion and color that went gray in low light - was sparkling its head off in good lighting. Most sapphires I saw hardly sparkle at all even in ideal llighting conditions. This one could rightfully be called "brilliant".

So at least I was able to see how a sapphire should be cut to make it brilliant.
Dana is indeed a wizard with his cutting.

Well...looks like it will be a long bumpy ride.

 

[Seaglow]

The bigger gem shows should have good stuffs. Tucson, Hongkong fair, Bangkok fair, Japan fair, and Munich show to name some.

But it is true that some sellers do not participate every year so you may have a problem with returns.

I was able to buy Russian demantoids straight from a Russian mine company, "Zultanite" straight from a Turkish mine company, Pearls straight from pearl producers/farmers, etc.

 

[digdeep]

What do you consider a 'fair price' (your price point) for a 2-3 carat precision cut ideal blue sapphire?

 

[Nosean]

Return policy in a gem show - why???

You see what you buy - you can talk to the vendor - check it in different light conditions. Returns if the stone sold as untreated is treated - o.k. no question..

Maybe o.k. too if you talk to the vendor that you what a period to check and maybe return it.

In Munichshow so Germany no vendor ( not online business!) in a show has to take a stone back and return if you don't like it after a day or two. Return it and choose another one - why not. But money back...

German law - a vendor can do it but is not committed to do it...

And the vendor is not committed to do business in future...

Just my opinion - don't kill me...

And another question if some tell me why vendor should accept returns and money back - why are the sales on Loupetroup are most time "final"?

 

[lilmosun]

I too have decided it's more fun to buy in person than on-line. To me on-line shopping offers more choices in terms of a particular stone, color and faceting and often better prices. So unless its a really large trade show, you may be disappointed in the selection and/or come back with something that isn't what you really wanted. I do think since you are focused on a specific purchase, you will likely do better on-line and with input from others here.

The biggest drawback at gem shows is the the pressure to "buy now", limited reputable vendors that truly specialize in faceted colored gemstones as opposed to general jewelry (Intergem) or minerals (gem and mineral shows) and the inability to spend time and see how the stone will perform in all lights...without a return perod.

Reputable vendors are an issue no matter where you go imo...as are concerns about treatments. But I agree, for a large sapphire, it must be contingent upon a reputable lab report (i.e. AGL) showing no diffusion, filling, etc.. Most gem shows have a link to the vendors that are exhibiting and if you post that, folks can tell you if they have worked with any of them (or in your case, would recommend for sapphires).

For larger purchases on-line or off, I stick with vendors that I know or have solid reputations with knowledgeable people I trust and have been around for a long time. Many at shows will let me take a stone outside and away from ideal lighting to look at (if the vendor doesn't know me personally, I may leave my credit card). Sometimes, I just take down the details, pictures and the vendor's card so I can think about it before buying. If someone else buys it, it wasn't meant to be....there are always more pretties out there if you are patient.

Regardless of where you buy..the important thing is to be educated and know what questions to ask and what to look for. I sense some of your frustration is from this uncertainty and so taking your time and exposing yourself to as much information on-line and off, is a good idea. It CAN be fun and there is nothing like knowing you have found the right stone for you with this information. (And when you do buy - make sure everything that you want guaranteed is detailed in the receipt and that you get any concerns addressed while covered by your credit company...or you may be out of luck depending on the vendor. )

Before joining PS, the thought of buying on-line terrified me - spending money on something that I haven't seen in person and hating to deal with returns. After joining PS, I learned so much (and still have a lot to learn) - not just what to look for but also about so many beautiful gems that you don't typically see except at the larger trade shows. But with that thirst quenched, I am finding that I am buying less on-line and more in person where the fun is in happening across something I love. Now I can do it with a little more knowledge than I had before.

 

[sapphiredream]

What do you consider a 'fair price' (your price point) for a 2-3 carat precision cut ideal blue sapphire?

I wouldn't know, because obviously, I can't name my price. Budget is a different issue.

I just need to know what the market does in this zone (2.5-3.5 cts, vibrant blue , precision cut).

 

[digdeep]

OK......what is your budget? Dana's gem was inexpensive relatively speaking, but you also saw some of the reasons for that.......so is that your budget? If not, then what is the top you'd pay for the sapphire you are hoping for?

 

[PrecisionGem]

For the size stone you are looking for, and of the quality you are expressing, you should expect to pay somewhere between $4000 and $8000 a really nice stone could be over $10,000. You won’t find a “Precision Cut” stone however at most gem shows, almost all will be a native cut with a step cut pavilion. You should be able to find one that is cut well enough however. A true “Precision Cut” stone is only one cut by Precision Gem! I invented the term and now everyone is using it.
Normally at these smaller gem shows that pop up from town to town, you don’t see a lot of nice sapphires in these sizes. These shows are filled with cheap ready made jewelers, beads, mineral samples, cabs, geodes etc, often not that much in better faceted stones.
I have generally found most dealers at shows to be honest people, and nice people.

 

[T L]

Sorry to hear about your AIGS report experience. Actually, AIGS can do LIBS testing and can determine diffusion. The thing is, they do it on an optional basis for an extra cost. It is up to those who want a report to have it done or not. Thus, they indicate in the report LIBS tested or not LIBS tested. Because the service is optional, it is possible that sellers who are not upfront about the diffused goods can get an AIGS report without LIBS testing.

I agree on padparadscha. So many unattractive colored stones claimed as padparadscha.

LIBS isn't as accurate as a mass spectrometer for detecting some diffusion. At the time I sent my stone, AIGS didn't have an LIBS or it wasn't working (I forget).

 

[sapphiredream]

For the size stone you are looking for, and of the quality you are expressing, you should expect to pay somewhere between $4000 and $8000 a really nice stone could be over $10,000. You won’t find a “Precision Cut” stone however at most gem shows, almost all will be a native cut with a step cut pavilion. You should be able to find one that is cut well enough however. A true “Precision Cut” stone is only one cut by Precision Gem!
I invented the term and now everyone is using it.
Normally at these smaller gem shows that pop up from town to town, you don’t see a lot of nice sapphires in these sizes. These shows are filled with cheap ready made jewelers, beads, mineral samples, cabs, geodes etc, often not that much in better faceted stones.
I have generally found most dealers at shows to be honest people, and nice people.

Precisiongem,

This information is really helpful - thank you so much!

On the topic of price ...I have found that most people - buyers and vendors - kind of avoid the topic (or talk about it last).
Yet for those of us without unlimited budgets (which I think is about 99% of the population), price remains important relative to quality. So it's really helpful when we know what to expect and how much our budget can realistically handle. If we really can't fit into a certain bracket, we can start to see where we can lower expectations and how much...or alternatively, what extra efforts we might need to make to get closer to where we want to be.

I learned the term "precision cut" here and browsing on vendor websites. If you invented the technique...thank you!!! - because some of us are sparkoholics.

I don't know anything about specific technical execution and terms ...but my understanding was that the term precision cut is used to describe sparkly stones so that will act "brilliant" and will allow for maximum light return - as opposed to flat, lifeless, silky and just "sitting there".

If I am not wrong I think I made a recent inquiry on your site but you said you don't do commissioned work now.
I will keep looking for just the right sapphire - maybe you will have one at some point.

Your stones do look spectacular and everyone here raves about them.

 

[prs]

I wonder how the polish of a sapphire influences how brilliant it is, or how much it sparkles?

 

[Seaglow]

LIBS isn't as accurate as a mass spectrometer for detecting some diffusion. At the time I sent my stone, AIGS didn't have an LIBS or it wasn't working (I forget).

There are two instruments usually done to detect diffusion and they are LA-ICP-MS and LIBS, and both are ablation process. The process is a partially destructive test, so usually you sign a consent for these tests to be done because for the test to be performed, you must do a laser in a very tiny portion of the stone which will vaporize it to be analyzed by the mass spectrometer. The last time I placed stones at AIGS, they told me the reason it's not automatic is they need the consent for because of the ablation/destructive process.

 

[Seaglow]

@sapphiredream,

A stone can be well cut without being precision cut. A precision cut is done with exact angles (usually you follow a cutting chart to determine the exact angles, some are not cut entirely by a machine) usually for maximum symmetry and light return. A local cut can still be a well cut stone and can still appear symmetrical and sparkly. A good cutter who will not prioritize on weight but on light return can cut a stone nicely and it may not be precision cut. For sapphires and rubies, most are cut with consideration on weight. In fact fine rubies are rare beyond a carat so you would hardly see rubies in precision cut. For fine sapphires, there is a tolerance in the trade to even to have the culet not centered.

I have seen local cuts being recut into precision, while many recutters, if the stone only need a little tweaking, will recut it but not into precision to save weight on a valuable material.

@prs, good point! The sparkle of a stone is usually with the clarity, cut and transparency but a high polish do make a difference and makes the stone look nicer.

 

[mellowyellowgirl]

There are two instruments usually done to detect diffusion and they are LA-ICP-MS and LIBS, and both are ablation process. The process is a partially destructive test, so usually you sign a consent for these tests to be done because for the test to be performed, you must do a laser in a very tiny portion of the stone which will vaporize it to be analyzed by the mass spectrometer. The last time I placed stones at AIGS, they told me the reason it's not automatic is they need the consent for because of the ablation/destructive process.

Yikes!!!! So can you see the bit they vaporize with a loup or is it teeny tiny?

 

[Seaglow]

Yikes!!!! So can you see the bit they vaporize with a loup or is it teeny tiny?

It's usually teeny tiny but you may see a small nick under magnification, usually I see it around or below the girdle.

Also, remember when you sign the consent form, labs may test at different spots of the stone should they see the need in order to arrive at a conclusion but they do in the most inconspicuous areas.

 

[sapphiredream]

I too have decided it's more fun to buy in person than on-line. To me on-line shopping offers more choices in terms of a particular stone, color and faceting and often better prices. So unless its a really large trade show, you may be disappointed in the selection and/or come back with something that isn't what you really wanted. I do think since you are focused on a specific purchase, you will likely do better on-line and with input from others here.

The biggest drawback at gem shows is the the pressure to "buy now", limited reputable vendors that truly specialize in faceted colored gemstones as opposed to general jewelry (Intergem) or minerals (gem and mineral shows) and the inability to spend time and see how the stone will perform in all lights...without a return perod.

Reputable vendors are an issue no matter where you go imo...as are concerns about treatments. But I agree, for a large sapphire, it must be contingent upon a reputable lab report (i.e. AGL) showing no diffusion, filling, etc.. Most gem shows have a link to the vendors that are exhibiting and if you post that, folks can tell you if they have worked with any of them (or in your case, would recommend for sapphires).

For larger purchases on-line or off, I stick with vendors that I know or have solid reputations with knowledgeable people I trust and have been around for a long time. Many at shows will let me take a stone outside and away from ideal lighting to look at (if the vendor doesn't know me personally, I may leave my credit card). Sometimes, I just take down the details, pictures and the vendor's card so I can think about it before buying. If someone else buys it, it wasn't meant to be....there are always more pretties out there if you are patient.

Regardless of where you buy..the important thing is to be educated and know what questions to ask and what to look for. I sense some of your frustration is from this uncertainty and so taking your time and exposing yourself to as much information on-line and off, is a good idea. It CAN be fun and there is nothing like knowing you have found the right stone for you with this information. (And when you do buy - make sure everything that you want guaranteed is detailed in the receipt and that you get any concerns addressed while covered by your credit company...or you may be out of luck depending on the vendor. )

Before joining PS, the thought of buying on-line terrified me - spending money on something that I haven't seen in person and hating to deal with returns. After joining PS, I learned so much (and still have a lot to learn) - not just what to look for but also about so many beautiful gems that you don't typically see except at the larger trade shows. But with that thirst quenched, I am finding that I am buying less on-line and more in person where the fun is in happening across something I love. Now I can do it with a little more knowledge than I had before.

Thank you, lilmoson. That puts it in perspective.

I am not sure what kind of show this will be, but this is what I get in my area (Augusta or Marietta, GA in March, scrolling down, announced by rockngem.com).

http://www.rockngem.com/ShowDatesFiles/ShowDatesDisplayAll.php?ShowState=ALL

Not sure what selection will be there either - but this is all there is around here as far as I am aware.
Based on what I read here, this will probably have to be just a learning process - should still be fun though.

I will soon start a search thread and will continue to haunt the Net for that perfect 3 ct sapphire on a budget.
Sure, it doesn't have to be technically "precision cut" if it still sparkles, it's luminous and has great color. I can always outsource the sparkle job to a diamond halo or some kind of diamond help. But color will be a biggie.
But goodness...are these sapphires stocky creatures or what!
Because they weigh like an elephant at very tiny dimensions.

When you say "3 cts", you would think you'd be carrying a house on your finger; and yet when you see one IRL...it's hardly so.

I also read stones look larger when set, so maybe that's the silver lining.
As mentioned earlier, I recently saw a 2.5 ct sapphire with rather respectable dimensions at 9.2 x 7.2...and on my hand (unset) it felt SO small.
A diamond of these dimensions would look much larger, I think. But I am set on a sapphire.

In the meantime, I will focus on completing my garnet statement ring project.

 

[T L]

There are two instruments usually done to detect diffusion and they are LA-ICP-MS and LIBS, and both are ablation process. The process is a partially destructive test, so usually you sign a consent for these tests to be done because for the test to be performed, you must do a laser in a very tiny portion of the stone which will vaporize it to be analyzed by the mass spectrometer. The last time I placed stones at AIGS, they told me the reason it's not automatic is they need the consent for because of the ablation/destructive process.

Yes, the LA-ICP-MS is the mass spectrometer I was referring to. I never saw any damage to my stone after using this machine. It must be very very microscopic because I know for a fact they used it on the Hope Diamond.