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gouge in new sapphire

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rainbowtrout

Ideal_Rock
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Dec 2, 2005
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Hi--
I recently purchased a sapphire from a very reputable online vendor. The stone arrived today and it is lovely; but examining it even without a loupe there is a double gouge on one of the sides, just below the face of the gem. This was not mentionned in the description of the gem and I am not sure how it would effect the value. I am fairly sure this vendor is not trying to misrepresent anything (very frequently recommned around here during my months of lurking), but I want to know what this gouge means for the gem''s value?

It''s a medium-dark "cornflower" blue (whatever that means, right?), and was about 2800 a carat.

Thanks!!!!
 
You should be within your "return policy" period I believe, if it bothers you. Something like that should have been in the description IMO. Could it have been damaged in shipping?
 
It doesn''t bother me per se, but I was curious as to how it would or should affect the value of the sapphire.

Here''s a picture:
12022005_Sapphire_a15.jpg
 
Hi,

I consider this a serious problem. My guess is the stone has been previously prong-mounted and the chip was caused by pushing an improperly prepared prong.

This stone is a classic example of what I call "Bangkok cutting." It has virtually no girdle and a big ''belly''. The angle of the pavilion girdle facets is such that a prong not carefully notched to that exact shape will exert a lot of pressure at a single point when pushed over the stone. Result: a perfect little conchoidal fracture that''s probably easily visible through the top of the stone. When pavilions are cut to correct angles chances of this kind of damage are greatly diminished.

This style of cutting not only results in chipping problems but adds unnecessary (but expensive) weight to the stone and diminishes its brilliance.

I''d advise returning the stone. I''m surprised it would be sent out in that condition but anyone can make a mistake. The real test comes in how they deal with it.

Richard M.

gouge.jpg
 
Thanks for the information Richard. It just came today and is in a trial period, so would be able to return it no questions asked. The vendor is very reputable, particularly on these forums.

Still, it is a beautiful stone in person and the blemish doesn''t bother me terribly much. Does the gouge compromise the strength of the gem or make it substantially harder to mount? If we were to decide to keep it, how much of a discount should we ask for? 10%? 50%? Something in between? I just don''t have a sense of how much this diminishes the value of the gem. It is currently priced at a something of a premium ($3300/1.55 carats unheated), although after seeing it in person I really feel that, without the gouge, it would be worth every penny.

Also, for financial reasons we were planning on mounting it in a simple solitaire setting for now and placing it in a more elaborate setting some years in the future. Will the "Bangkok cutting" you describe make mounting it in a stock setting a bad idea (either make it likely to gouge again or likely to be lost)?

Thanks for your advise. I can''t tell you how much expert guidance is appreciated at a time like this!
 
Here is a response we got from the vendor--it sounds like it could either be true or BS--any opinions?
--------------------

Unheated sapphire often has what you termed to be "gouges" - and they are called "naturals" - below the girdle line. This is where the crystal separates from it''s host. When a natural inhibits the pleasure of viewing the gem stone face up, then it can be considered to be an issue. When it''s presence does not affect the face up viewing, it is considered to be cosmetically moot and gemologically positive in that it occurs mostly natural material. Aesthete''s and (cerebral gem dealers) look upon this as a "wabi sabi" component. For more on "Wabi Sabi" go to this link for some background;

http://users.exis.net/~jnc/nontech/wabisabi.html


--------------------
Moreover, the stone was supposedly cut by a famous lapidary, so the heavy belly of the cut is a little strange in context--I attributed it to a need to make the stone deep in order to make the color come out fully. I''m going to put up a pic of how this looks on its "face" to give another angle of the cut.
 
Here is a shot of the face of the stone, it is much more violet than it looks here and catches a bit more light. Very "glowy" color.


12022005_Sapphire_a09.jpg
 
Date: 12/2/2005 6:34:52 PM
Author: rainbowtrout

Still, it is a beautiful stone in person and the blemish doesn''t bother me terribly much. Does the gouge compromise the strength of the gem or make it substantially harder to mount? If we were to decide to keep it, how much of a discount should we ask for? tell you how much expert guidance is appreciated at a time like this!

The gouge doesn''t compromise the strength of the stone, at least as far as I can tell from your image, but the geometry of the girdle/pavilion may lead to future trouble in prong setting. It all depends on the skill/knowledge of the setter and the type of setting chosen.

I have opinions about your other questions but don''t think it would be right for me to comment. If the damage wasn''t disclosed to you prior to sale, at a minimum you should contact the seller and ask what s/he''s prepared to do to make things right. As I mentioned, the dealer may not have realized there was a problem -- believe me, keeping track of the details of every stone in inventory can be a huge task!
 
Well...it does look beautiful...

Hmmm...I must say that any "natural" that obvious should have been mentioned in the original description of the stone....I HOPE it was an oversight on the part of the seller...

hmmmm...
widget
 
widget--sent ya a PM :-)
 
Date: 12/2/2005 6:59:44 PM
Author: rainbowtrout
Here is a response we got from the vendor--it sounds like it could either be true or BS--any opinions?




"Unheated sapphire often has what you termed to be ''gouges'' - and they are called ''naturals'' - below the girdle line. This is where the crystal separates from it''s host. When a natural inhibits the pleasure of viewing the gem stone face up, then it can be considered to be an issue. When it''s presence does not affect the face up viewing, it is considered to be cosmetically moot and gemologically positive in that it occurs mostly natural material. Aesthete''s and (cerebral gem dealers) look upon this as a ''wabi sabi'' component."



Did the seller ask you if you were a Zen Buddhist prior to the sale? Wabi Sabi, the beauty of things imperfect, impermanent, and incomplete, isn''t part of the cultural tradition in the City of Brotherly Love. I personally like a little individuality in so-called "native cuts" and have posted to that effect previously. But something as obvious as this imperfection, whether from damage or a natural as stated, should have been mentioned prior to sale. You can bet it would be mentioned in a grading/appraisal report.

Naturals are often left in gemstones, including diamonds. But the purpose isn''t esthetic. It''s to increase the size and weight of the finished gem because if you cut to the depth of the ding you''d lose a surprising amount of weight. And natural or not, the girdle/pavilion upper girdle facet geometry in this stone is not easy to set. Still, many dealers and consumers ignore naturals because they allow a larger gem. They''ve become part of gemstone mystique or ''romancing the stone.''

Whether or not you accept ''Wabi Sabi'' imperfections in a gem is a matter of personal choice. Your second image shows a stone of beautiful color which may be partially achieved by the excess ''belly'' on the stone. If you''re not bothered by the imperfection and you feel the price is fair, then enjoy!
 
Hee....no, they did not, amusing because my family IS Tibetan Bhuddist.

Anyway, what sort of setting would you recommend for the stone? I''m getting the feeling prongs=bad idea?

I was thinking of a bezel with a halo, but it''s a bit out of our price range.
 
Date: 12/2/2005 8:17:26 PM
Author: rainbowtrout
Hee....no, they did not, amusing because my family IS Tibetan Bhuddist.
Anyway, what sort of setting would you recommend for the stone? I''m getting the feeling prongs=bad idea?
I was thinking of a bezel with a halo, but it''s a bit out of our price range.

Well, that''s funny. It''s what happens every time I make an assumption.

My personal preference would be a bezel but you can set the stone in prongs -- just be very selective in your choice of a setter. Make certain you discuss that problem specifically when you have the work done.
 
Well, we are taking it an appraiser today and we shall see what information he comes back at us with.


I''ve discussed the problem with the vendor already (as I mentioned in the email-copy post), and they seem disinclined to either apologize at all or to lower the cost. On the other hand, maybe they were just rushed out the door or the like.

We''ll speak to them again on Monday..honestly, a simple ''we screwed up, sorry about that'' would be great.
 
If the color is good enough to warrant the price and the stone will look fine set I'd keep it and perhaps not even consider recuiting.


Once cut, no one can put it back together again.
7.gif


Bottom heavy cuts are often discounted. An independent appraiser should be the best person to ask if the cut has been factored into the price, or a stone with similarly beautiful color, matching weight and larger looking might be somewhere easy to find. At ~3k/ct thig could be the case after all.

On the other hand, if you want to keep it keeping an open option to have it recut in the future, the question has to be asked now. Not all sapphire can be recut - dichroism or internal characteristics (inlcusions, severe color zoning) could easily make this the most suitable shape for the stone with only minor reshaping possible without downgrading the color or making imperfections visible. This is sort of general statement, I can't see such details in the pictures and would not venture anyhow given that my little insight is nowhere professional.

Not ot mention it is hard to keep cool about a nice sapphire!
2.gif
It would be sad if the nice acorn shape will be sunk in a setting - perhaps it could be set somehow to let the profile of the pavilion in the open.
 
eeek!

I''ve no desire to recut this thing---at all. It does have a belly,but it is beautifully symmetrical, has a great face, no window, and if it weren''t for the odd response of the vendor and the knowledge that a setting both safe and beautiful MAY be out of my price range, I''d have no complaints.

I''d love to stick in in a diamond halo bezel, but we''ve only about 700-800 for a setting.
 
It also has color banding when the side ("belly") of the stone is looked at straight on--one can see the color of the face, a light blue band, and a dark blue at the bottom.

Anyone know what that means?
 
Date: 12/3/2005 9:01:54 AM
Author: rainbowtrout

... the knowledge that a setting both safe and beautiful MAY be out of my price range, I''d have no complaints.

I don''t know about diamond bezel, but there should be some interesting options for the cash
1.gif


I don''t know what you refer to exactly as ''bezel'' setting - if there will be a solid ''bucket'' of metal covering the pavilion that will end up a hulk of a ring and the stone rather dark. A bezel that only holds the girdle should avoid both problems. And those rings do not need to be that expensive either.

Here''s a simple version of what I have in mind. (link to source)

The seller gives separate quotes for this setting for the larger sapphires... However, I just wanted to show the way the light and open bezel is constructed.

Glad to hear that your stone is not about to get hacked into
31.gif
 
Date: 12/3/2005 9:04:56 AM
Author: rainbowtrout
It also has color banding when the side (''belly'') of the stone is looked at straight on--one can see the color of the face, a light blue band, and a dark blue at the bottom.

Anyone know what that means?
What is means for... ?

The color zoning occurs in ''sheets'' along the facets of the crystal as it grows. There may be other types of color zoning but ''growth marks'' but I am not familiar with the topic all that well. (there was a similar question on this unrelated thread).

What it means for value and price is not glamorous. If they show face up that would make for a discount. If they do not it is more debatable - for some very rarefied quality standards they would still be considered a fault but.. that makes sense for the finest color, IMO and allot less for anything else. At this point, I do not know if the high price per carat you paid was warranted by perfect color or more practically considered good looks and large size. It may be that the zoning has already factored in.

Richard ? Anyone? ... this is to say, you need an expert opinion for this and I am not an expert.

My 0.2
 
Hi Valeria,

they don''t show face up at all--face up the stone is a gorgeous cornflower blue.

amusingly, when we were looking at settings today, every single jeweler (with the exception of the lying jerk who said there was no price differance between unheated and heated sapphires in terms of price and palladium didn''t exist) assumed it was a Ceylon and raved about the color.


when I say bezel I was speaking about the thinner kind, not sinking it into metal.


We were looking today at a double prong setting with a deep gallery on it to accomodate the stone''s depth and show of the "extra" carat weight which is actually rather pretty with the color banding ...when I asked what it meant, I was asking ''why does the stone do that?'' not what it means for price.

The zoning was taken into acct with the price.
 
For referance, my finance the watch nut took his micrometer and jewler''s loup and measured the girdle.

it''s less than .5 milimeter in most places..and I DO actually want to prong mount it. We are talking to our jeweler about making a custom setting with double prongs in a deep gallery to accomodate the depth of the stone.

None of the many stores we stopped in today mentioned the thin girdle which I thought was odd.
 
Date: 12/3/2005 5:03:58 PM
Author: rainbowtrout

the girdle... it''s less than .5 milimeter in most places..and I DO actually want to prong mount it. We are talking to our jeweler about making a custom setting with double prongs in a deep gallery to accomodate the depth of the stone.

None of the many stores we stopped in today mentioned the thin girdle which I thought was odd.

Maybe that is not so thin after all... for a girdle.

... ''thought you might find THIS interesting for the way the gallery was constructed to showcase a deep cut sapphire. It will look at least as good simple, IMO.
 
yum..I''d seen that one before, but thank you for the rec...Leon pics are always welcome :-)

One day I want to get him to make me a thin version of that beautiful platinum-diamond wedding band in the picture with that diamond cushion, three sided pave solitaire people put up a lot around here (although I''ve seen most of his gallery posted on PS all in all!)
 
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