Green Diamond

[kenny]

What are the odds this green diamond's color is of natural origin as the vendor claims?

0.05 ct
$250
No lab report.

The color looks way too good to be true.
If they are so sure it's fully natural wouldn't they send it to GIA to get much more for it?
The return period is 30 days, not long enough for a GIA green diamond report.

Anyone have good or bad experience with this vendor?

http://www.starruby.in/store/fancy-color-diamonds/0-05-carat-extremely-rare-fancy-intense-leaf-green-diamond

 

[GliderPoss]

At that price maybe it's worth the risk? Perhaps you could negotiate a longer return period?

 

[T L]

They do offer lab reports, including GIA, so perhaps you should take them up on it. It's not a huge investment. I wonder if the color is photoshopped, and it's more olive green IRL.

 

[davi_el_mejor]

I thought GIA only did stones over .15ct

 

[bcavitt]

I thought GIA only did stones over .15ct

From the GIA website fee structure - $98 for a colored diamond starting at 0.01 carats. White diamonds start at 0.15 crats.

 

[kenny]

I thought GIA only did stones over .15ct

They do, but when it's under 15 points GIA will not issue that full report with clarity and all that other stuff.

 

[T L]

Will they just issue a report on the color and treatment status?

At that size, it doesn't seem that clarity is much of an issue, and it looks pretty clean (SI) to me in that super magnified image.

 

[kenny]

Will they just issue a report on the color and treatment status?

At that size, it doesn't seem that clarity is much of an issue, and it looks pretty clean (SI) to me in that super magnified image.

These are the only two grading reports GIA issues for natural fancy colored diamonds.
The short one is the only one you can get when the stone is 14 points or lower, although it is often requested for very expensive larger FCDs with poor clarity, assuming the vendor would rather not bring attention to I1, I2, or I3 clarity.

http://www.gia.edu/lab-reports-services/diamonds/diamond-reports/index.html

 

[LD]

It looks like irradiated greens I've seen (and own).

I highly doubt it's natural and what perturbs me more is that this is claimed to be natural - HOW does the vendor know??????

If it's a natural then $250 is good. If it's irradiated then it's very very expensive. If you can't 100% check then you have to decide if it's worth the risk. Since I doubt a lab will be able to tell 100% (because the irradiation process mimics natural irradiation), you may never know.

Here's one of mine for you to compare. This is irradiated. I paid about £250 ($400 ish) just for the centre stone but it's over half a carat. Admittedly, you don't see these nice greens all the time so they're not as plentiful as other irradiated diamonds.

 

[T L]

He's a respected vendor, and he sometimes posts here, so I would like to give him the benefit of the doubt, but I think that if GIA cannot find a radiation stain, or evidence of coating, it would indicate its natural in color, Don't quote me on that though. I do agree with LD that the photo above does look like an irradiated green diamond though.

I have never purchased anything from that vendor, but I know that some people are happy with his merchandise, and I do like the fact that he offers reputable lab reports. I would email him to see what he says about the true color of the stone and its treatment status, refund info, etc. . . if you're truly interested.

 

[AN0NYM0US]

Yeah but what if GIA gives an origin of "undetermined" which is very likely. Then what? It wouldn't be worth the risk to me.

 

[kenny]

Yeah but what if GIA gives an origin of "undetermined" which is very likely. Then what? It wouldn't be worth the risk to me.

Perhaps they already got the dreaded undetermined-green-origin report from GIA, shredded it and are selling it with no report, hoping for a less-informed buyer to "take the risk".

I just can't see an experienced professional vendor selling a green diamond they know or even suspect may be natural for $250.

 

[txgreeneyes]

LD, your green diamond ring is beautiful!

 

[chrono]

Quite a risky stone - it is unlikely to be untreated looking at the colour and if it is indeed strongly thought of by the vendor, why didn't he take that low risk knowing that he can sell it for much MUCH more with a GIA cert?

 

[LD]

Quite a risky stone - it is unlikely to be untreated looking at the colour and if it is indeed strongly thought of by the vendor, why didn't he take that low risk knowing that he can sell it for much MUCH more with a GIA cert?

I suspect because the diamond is tiny. It's much smaller than most collectors want so a natural untreated diamond of that size has a limited market. Let's say the vendor pays for a lab report and it comes back as irradiated - is it then worth $250? Probably not. I think this is a numbers game and purely a commercial decision.

 

[kenny]

Quite a risky stone - it is unlikely to be untreated looking at the colour and if it is indeed strongly thought of by the vendor, why didn't he take that low risk knowing that he can sell it for much MUCH more with a GIA cert?

I suspect because the diamond is tiny. It's much smaller than most collectors want so a natural untreated diamond of that size has a limited market. Let's say the vendor pays for a lab report and it comes back as irradiated - is it then worth $250? Probably not. I think this is a numbers game and purely a commercial decision.

But what about ethics and this business's reputation?
Calling it natural carries responsibility that influences every stone they have for sale.

 

[LD]

Quite a risky stone - it is unlikely to be untreated looking at the colour and if it is indeed strongly thought of by the vendor, why didn't he take that low risk knowing that he can sell it for much MUCH more with a GIA cert?

I suspect because the diamond is tiny. It's much smaller than most collectors want so a natural untreated diamond of that size has a limited market. Let's say the vendor pays for a lab report and it comes back as irradiated - is it then worth $250? Probably not. I think this is a numbers game and purely a commercial decision.

But what about ethics and this business's reputation?
Calling it natural carries responsibility that influences every stone they have for sale.

I couldn't agree with you more Kenny. I don't believe any Vendor should call a diamond natural and untreated UNLESS they have proof that it is. In this case there doesn't appear to be that proof. Savvy customers will understand that without a lab report the claim is baseless. Unfortunately savvy customers who know about green diamonds are probably in the minority.

 

[harshilzaveri]

This is Harshil Zaveri from StarRuby.in replying to some of the questions asked in this thread.

First of all, I would like to clarify that the diamond in question is a natural, non-enhanced green diamond. This particular diamond has been imported by us in rough form and cut/polished at our own workshop which is why even without a certificate from GIA/IGI, we are certain that it is non-enhanced. The system of certification has gained momentum only since the last few years. It is not necessarily true that if a diamond is not certified, the Vendor does not know whether it is non-treated or treated. Since decades, the diamond trade was being carried out without certification.

The reason we have not got it GIA certified is because GIA "Identification & Origin" report for FCD's in the size range of 0.01 to 0.14 ct costs $98 + taxes + shipping/handling. With such a high cost, which is a significant percentage of the total price of the diamond, it is impractical to get it certified beforehand when we are certain that is natural, untreated. We have a large customer base and many of them do not require certification from GIA so we would rather offer it at a competitive price than to get it GIA certified and make the stone more expensive for a customer. Not to mention that the turnaround time for GIA is almost 40 working days.

If any of our clients require GIA or IGI certificate for this diamond, we will be more than happy to arrange it as long as the buyer is willing to bear the certification charges.

I hope these clarifies any confusion regarding this diamond.

Best regards,
Harshil Zaveri

 

[kenny]

This is Harshil Zaveri from StarRuby.in replying to some of the questions asked in this thread.

First of all, I would like to clarify that the diamond in question is a natural, non-enhanced green diamond. This particular diamond has been imported by us in rough form and cut/polished at our own workshop which is why even without a certificate from GIA/IGI, we are certain that it is non-enhanced. The system of certification has gained momentum only since the last few years. It is not necessarily true that if a diamond is not certified, the Vendor does not know whether it is non-treated or treated. Since decades, the diamond trade was being carried out without certification.

The reason we have not got it GIA certified is because GIA "Identification & Origin" report for FCD's in the size range of 0.01 to 0.14 ct costs $98 + taxes + shipping/handling. With such a high cost, which is a significant percentage of the total price of the diamond, it is impractical to get it certified beforehand when we are certain that is natural, untreated. We have a large customer base and many of them do not require certification from GIA so we would rather offer it at a competitive price than to get it GIA certified and make the stone more expensive for a customer. Not to mention that the turnaround time for GIA is almost 40 working days.

If any of our clients require GIA or IGI certificate for this diamond, we will be more than happy to arrange it as long as the buyer is willing to bear the certification charges.

I hope these clarifies any confusion regarding this diamond.

Best regards,
Harshil Zaveri

Thank you Harshil.
I just sent you an email.
I will purchase the stone subject to the terms in my email.
If you agree to these terms please put the stone on hold and we will discuss payment.

BTW, when it comes to green diamonds our skepticism is nothing personal.
Even if a person personally mined the stone, kept personal possession of it 24/7, and personally polished it that does not mean GIA will grade it as natural material and color origin.
Green is easily faked by radiation in a lab and the most difficult hue for GIA to determine color origin.
Green diamonds are very much a buyer beware product and a GIA report is the best protection.

 

[minousbijoux]

Thanks for coming here to explain. What if someone purchased it under the assumption it was not treated? Would you honor an agreement where if they sent it to GIA and it came back as irradiated they could return it to you? Just trying to understand your policy...

 

[Justin_Cutter]

Kenny, Glad you emailed him. Harshil Zaveri has been great to deal with in my personal experience. Hope the purchase works out and I hope the diamond is untreated.

~Justin

 

[ieatbugs]

Yeah but what if GIA gives an origin of "undetermined" which is very likely. Then what? It wouldn't be worth the risk to me.

Perhaps they already got the dreaded undetermined-green-origin report from GIA, shredded it and are selling it with no report, hoping for a less-informed buyer to "take the risk".

I just can't see an experienced professional vendor selling a green diamond they know or even suspect may be natural for $250.

Quite a harsh statement to make against someone's professional reputation on a public forum, there. Just because they don't run their business as you see fit doesn't make them an unreputable vendor, and I don't think it's fair to broadcast that kind of speculation.

 

[kenny]

Yeah but what if GIA gives an origin of "undetermined" which is very likely. Then what? It wouldn't be worth the risk to me.

Perhaps they already got the dreaded undetermined-green-origin report from GIA, shredded it and are selling it with no report, hoping for a less-informed buyer to "take the risk".

I just can't see an experienced professional vendor selling a green diamond they know or even suspect may be natural for $250.

Quite a harsh statement to make against someone's professional reputation on a public forum, there. Just because they don't run their business as you see fit doesn't make them an unreputable vendor, and I don't think it's fair to broadcast that kind of speculation.

Did you notice I used the term "perhaps"?
That makes what I wrote not a statement, but I do apologize.
I do not want to harm a business.

Still, suspicion is fully warranted here.
Fully natural green Diamonds are a buyer beware product, and a $250 price with no GIA lab report raises suspicion in the informed FCD collector.

It is possible it IS fully natural but GIA cannot determine whether the origin of the green is natural or treatment.

I have decided I want mine to be a collection of FCDs that have color of natural origin per GIA.
Others may have different desires for their collections than I and that's fine.
People vary.

 

[T L]

Still, fully natural green Diamonds are a buyer beware product, and a $250 price raises suspicion in the informed FCD collector.
It is possible it IS fully natural but GIA cannot determine this.
If so I don't want it.
All my FCDs have color of natural origin per GIA and I intend the keep it that way.
Others may have different comfort levels than I and that's fine.

I'm not an FCD expert, but I suspect this may be the more khaki colored green diamond which gets its color from a combination of yellow, brown and grey. The uber expensive fancy green diamonds, like your green, and the Dresden, have more of a slightly bluish component to their color, and the color is obtained from radiation. I could be wrong, but just because the diamond is green doesn't mean it's going to be expensive, if natural in color that is. In any case, I wish you luck on your purchase, and I hope it turns out to be natural in color for you Kenny.

 

[Justin_Cutter]

Still, suspicion is fully warranted here.
Fully natural green Diamonds are a buyer beware product, and a $250 price with no GIA lab report raises suspicion in the informed FCD collector.

It is possible it IS fully natural but GIA cannot determine whether the origin of the green is natural or treatment.

I have decided I want mine to be a collection of FCDs that have color of natural origin per GIA.
Others may have different desires for their collections than I and that's fine.
People vary.

Kenny, Your concerns are valid! I totally understand wanting to have a collection of natural and untreated stones. There are certain gemstones that a report is a must! FCD are definitely one of them! Unless of course the buyer simply doesn't care about origin and treatment. That is not the case here.

I also get where StarRuby.in is coming from trying to offer the stone at the best price to the buyer. And that may be fine for some buyers, but you are not the typical buyer. Kenny I mean that in the highest respect.

~Justin

 

[kenny]

I have made a conditional offer to buy it and am waiting to hear back.

 

[harshilzaveri]

This is Harshil Zaveri from StarRuby.in replying to some of the questions asked in this thread.

First of all, I would like to clarify that the diamond in question is a natural, non-enhanced green diamond. This particular diamond has been imported by us in rough form and cut/polished at our own workshop which is why even without a certificate from GIA/IGI, we are certain that it is non-enhanced. The system of certification has gained momentum only since the last few years. It is not necessarily true that if a diamond is not certified, the Vendor does not know whether it is non-treated or treated. Since decades, the diamond trade was being carried out without certification.

The reason we have not got it GIA certified is because GIA "Identification & Origin" report for FCD's in the size range of 0.01 to 0.14 ct costs $98 + taxes + shipping/handling. With such a high cost, which is a significant percentage of the total price of the diamond, it is impractical to get it certified beforehand when we are certain that is natural, untreated. We have a large customer base and many of them do not require certification from GIA so we would rather offer it at a competitive price than to get it GIA certified and make the stone more expensive for a customer. Not to mention that the turnaround time for GIA is almost 40 working days.

If any of our clients require GIA or IGI certificate for this diamond, we will be more than happy to arrange it as long as the buyer is willing to bear the certification charges.

I hope these clarifies any confusion regarding this diamond.

Best regards,
Harshil Zaveri

Thank you Harshil.
I just sent you an email.
I will purchase the stone subject to the terms in my email.
If you agree to these terms please put the stone on hold and we will discuss payment.

BTW, when it comes to green diamonds our skepticism is nothing personal.
Even if a person personally mined the stone, kept personal possession of it 24/7, and personally polished it that does not mean GIA will grade it as natural material and color origin.
Green is easily faked by radiation in a lab and the most difficult hue for GIA to determine color origin.
Green diamonds are very much a buyer beware product and a GIA report is the best protection.

Hi Kenny,

I just replied to your email. We will discuss and finalize terms/conditions on email.

Regards,
Harshil

 

[LD]

Still, suspicion is fully warranted here.
Fully natural green Diamonds are a buyer beware product, and a $250 price with no GIA lab report raises suspicion in the informed FCD collector.

It is possible it IS fully natural but GIA cannot determine whether the origin of the green is natural or treatment.

I have decided I want mine to be a collection of FCDs that have color of natural origin per GIA.
Others may have different desires for their collections than I and that's fine.
People vary.

Kenny, Your concerns are valid! I totally understand wanting to have a collection of natural and untreated stones. There are certain gemstones that a report is a must! FCD are definitely one of them! Unless of course the buyer simply doesn't care about origin and treatment. That is not the case here.

I also get where StarRuby.in is coming from trying to offer the stone at the best price to the buyer. And that may be fine for some buyers, but you are not the typical buyer. Kenny I mean that in the highest respect.

~Justin

Justin - the issue here is not just about a report. Forgive me if you know this already but green diamonds get their colour from irradiation that happens naturally in the earth. This is also the same process that man uses to produce the green colour in diamonds. So, even if you send a green diamond for a report, it may well come back as "undetermined" i.e. the lab can't be sure if it's earth produced or man induced! Typically what happens (and this is for larger pieces) the rough is sent to the GIA, the diamond is then cut but a small piece of rough left for identification that is then finished later. This allows the lab to be more certain as to how the colour has been derived.

In this case Harshil has said that they bought the rough and cut the diamond. This is quite unusual that you can buy from rough to cut. The issue here is that the diamond is a tiny little thing and so it's a toss up whether you send to a lab or not. In this case Harshil decided against but is happy (I assume) for it to be analysed now. The risk here is that it could still be returned as undetermined. What I'm not sure about is why Harshil didn't send the rough to a lab and then cut it because he would most definitely be able to command a far higher amount for it.

 

[Justin_Cutter]

Justin - the issue here is not just about a report. Forgive me if you know this already but green diamonds get their colour from irradiation that happens naturally in the earth. This is also the same process that man uses to produce the green colour in diamonds. So, even if you send a green diamond for a report, it may well come back as "undetermined" i.e. the lab can't be sure if it's earth produced or man induced! Typically what happens (and this is for larger pieces) the rough is sent to the GIA, the diamond is then cut but a small piece of rough left for identification that is then finished later. This allows the lab to be more certain as to how the colour has been derived.

In this case Harshil has said that they bought the rough and cut the diamond. This is quite unusual that you can buy from rough to cut. The issue here is that the diamond is a tiny little thing and so it's a toss up whether you send to a lab or not. In this case Harshil decided against but is happy (I assume) for it to be analysed now. The risk here is that it could still be returned as undetermined. What I'm not sure about is why Harshil didn't send the rough to a lab and then cut it because he would most definitely be able to command a far higher amount for it.

LD- No worries! I do understand the bigger issue here Perhaps I was to vague in my previous post. I guess my emphasis on the report was just to have some clarification regarding the stone whether that be Natural Irradiation, Unnatural, or Undetermined.

I think the best option would be to purchase the stone then send it to GIA. In the event it comes back Undetermined or Unnatural then a full refund should be issued since it was advertised as natural. Perhaps this is Kenny's conditions. They certainly would be mine.

~Justin

 

[harshilzaveri]

Still, suspicion is fully warranted here.
Fully natural green Diamonds are a buyer beware product, and a $250 price with no GIA lab report raises suspicion in the informed FCD collector.

It is possible it IS fully natural but GIA cannot determine whether the origin of the green is natural or treatment.

I have decided I want mine to be a collection of FCDs that have color of natural origin per GIA.
Others may have different desires for their collections than I and that's fine.
People vary.

Kenny, Your concerns are valid! I totally understand wanting to have a collection of natural and untreated stones. There are certain gemstones that a report is a must! FCD are definitely one of them! Unless of course the buyer simply doesn't care about origin and treatment. That is not the case here.

I also get where StarRuby.in is coming from trying to offer the stone at the best price to the buyer. And that may be fine for some buyers, but you are not the typical buyer. Kenny I mean that in the highest respect.

~Justin

Justin - the issue here is not just about a report. Forgive me if you know this already but green diamonds get their colour from irradiation that happens naturally in the earth. This is also the same process that man uses to produce the green colour in diamonds. So, even if you send a green diamond for a report, it may well come back as "undetermined" i.e. the lab can't be sure if it's earth produced or man induced! Typically what happens (and this is for larger pieces) the rough is sent to the GIA, the diamond is then cut but a small piece of rough left for identification that is then finished later. This allows the lab to be more certain as to how the colour has been derived.

In this case Harshil has said that they bought the rough and cut the diamond. This is quite unusual that you can buy from rough to cut. The issue here is that the diamond is a tiny little thing and so it's a toss up whether you send to a lab or not. In this case Harshil decided against but is happy (I assume) for it to be analysed now. The risk here is that it could still be returned as undetermined. What I'm not sure about is why Harshil didn't send the rough to a lab and then cut it because he would most definitely be able to command a far higher amount for it.

Dear LD,

When I mentioned that we have cut & polished from rough, I meant that this diamond was a part of a batch of rough diamonds (most of them colorless) that we had imported for cutting/polishing. When we had bought the rough, we had not bought this stone separately expecting it to yield such a green diamond. Also, in the rough form, the skin of the diamond can look considerably different in color and most of the times it is quite difficult to make out what will be the final yield. And with such a tiny size, it probably got cut/polished along with the batch without any special attention devoted to it.

I must admin that FCDs is not our specialty (premium colored stones is) so I do not possess as much information about the value or the certification process of fancy colored diamonds in particular like most of you guys who have posted here (and I must say I have got to learn a lot about green diamonds and their certification).

Anyways I am discussing with Kenny to work out a mutually agreeable way by which the dealing can be sorted out.

Regards,
Harshil