GRS Sapphire Color Classification

[politely]

Howdy folks. I''m looking at buying a blue sapphire as an anniversary present for my spouse, I think I''ve found one, but am still trying to figure out whether it''s a top color. The one I''m looking at now has a GRS certificate, which states the color to be "vivid blue (GRS type "royal blue")". To my eyes it''s very nice, but seems a bit dark. Since the GRS site doesn''t list it''s color categories, I''m wondering where in the value spectrum this classification would fall. Also, if someone could provide some comparison with GIA or AGL classifications that would be really useful (and yes, I know it''s a long shot given what I''ve read about the inability to standardize color classifications - but hey, it''s worth a shot

).

Much thanks!

 

[valeria101]

Date: 8/12/2005 2:47:19 AM
Author:politely

I know it's a long shot given what I've read about the inability to standardize color classifications - but hey, it's worth a shot

This would be a long shot... not quite feasible in abesence of reasonably precise metrics and crossreferences (e.g. GIA's system is supposed to work based on visual comparison with an established refference set of stones, not measurements of color). It seems that darker tone is preffered for sapphire - don't ask me why

Somehow I was left with the impression that darkness fools the eye into seeing more color saturation where it isn't the case, but I have no proof or refference - trully just my opinion this time. In theory, saturation (and your 'vivid' is top on that scale) could be judged independent of tone, but that seems to require a certain stretch of imagination to overcome the first hand intuitive impression that seems to assume dark color is 'more' color.

Whyle I love working with numbers and models, I surely agree with Richard's colorful posts about judging color HERE. The thread is about a ruby, but his comments are written in general terms about emotions and experience. Trying to express those in grades is an ammusing intellectual experiment at best - more dangerous than useful, IMO.

Oh well... I suspect that aroudn Pricescope Marti Haske has gone into some length about measuring and classifying gem colors. You might want to visit the website of Adamas Gem Lab and hunt for evidence of that.

 

[bar01]

GIA discussion of Sapphire Grading with color wheel


and a nice presentation on AGL Grading

 

[colorchange]

Vivid blue is a color and in vivid blue you may also have dark stones and pastel ones.
Anyway, don''t be impressed by the "Royal Blue" (would the GRS have writted "Pigeon Blood Red" it would sure add value, but this mention is unimportant to me).
If it don''t looks good to you, it''s not and by the way, trends tend to change and "Royal Blue" appelation was surely thought to match older definitions.

That''s my best guess, anyway if you don''t like it or don''t feel it is worth the price don''t buy.

By the way, which size, price and cut are you looking for ?

Regards

Henri

 

[politely]

Thanks for the responses. I had looked at those sites before (frequently & how!), but unfortunately, I think my monitor doesn''t accurately convey the colors. I think I have the theory down, but am confused when confronted with reality

.

I''ve been looking on and off for a while, mostly because it''s been a frustrating experience. I guess all I really want is some independent expert to say in writing that a stone is an "A" or "B" quality stone (on a recognized and easy to understand A-F scale). I don''t really need the percentages or decimalized scoring. I''m not really interested in pleochromism, refraction, or geowhatchamacallitism. I understand that colors can vary, that cut matters, and there are other factors in rating a given stone, but I''d like to know that I''m beginning the process at some reference baseline. The salesperson can tell me why a given stone is better than another stone in a given category, but I''d like to know in what category we''re starting.

I think it''s important because of the fact that a consumer simply doesn''t have access to enough stones to make a reasonable judgment. Hypothetically and exaggeratedly, let''s say you go to a jeweler and you look at the jeweler''s available stones. You like one more than the rest, so it''s the "best" stone, and of course the salesperson is hyping the stone and saying what an amazing stone it is, and so you buy that one and pay a premium. But it was "best" only in comparison with what was available when you went to look - and of course mentally comparing what you saw in one place to another is like carrying water in a bucket riddled with holes. What if all the stones were all "D" or "F" quality stones to begin with? You''d never know what a "A" quality stone looked like, or knew that it existed, or what the baseline pricing should be for stones at either level.

Given that dealers don''t have a problem in pricing the stones they think are beautiful, why shouldn''t an independent authority (like a recognized lab) be able to make a similar judgment as to beauty? The system will be subjective, and it won''t be perfect, but it would be immensely helpful. As for the inability to come up with a scoring system, they do it for pearls, don''t they?

I''m a simple sort of guy, when I ask someone whether a color is pretty and they say it''s 81.6% blue, or bV 6/4, or that it has xy^2/345 refractive tone saturated holymackeralite, that doesn''t help me at all. It also doesn''t help to look at a lab certificate and see that the lab has judged the sapphire''s color to be... (drum roll please)... "blue" - that''s just dumb. All I want or need is an "excellent" or "crappy" type of answer. GIA does that for cuts & polish for diamonds - why not for colored stones, for all the important characteristics? If people want additional information, I''m sure the lab would be happy to provide (like a Sarin analysis for diamonds - not everyone needs or wants one). I would be happy with a grading system like on cherrypicked (but of course, that''s the seller''s determination - I''d like independent verification, being the suspicious monkey that I am).

Honestly, I just don''t believe that the industry can''t come up with (and agree to use) a good, easy to understand grading chart. Artistry aside, I just can''t believe it''s that hard to do or that the equipment doesn''t exist. For crying out loud, we put a man on the moon...

.

Finally, knowing the jewelry industry, I understand, of course, that the rating would never be "A"-"F", more like "AAAAA+++" to "AAA" or something like "So Fabulous Your SO Will Love You Forever" to "Extremely Nice".

FWIW, I was looking for a 5+ carat stone in an oval/cushion shape.

 

[bar01]

Well,

An expert independent appraiser (Like Sherwood) using all the GIA information ends up with a simple to understand 1-10 score grade - 10 being the best gem quality. Even a score of 8 is extremely rare for anyone to see these days.

However, all of this is somewhat subjective. Not everyone likes the most so called “most valuable GIA tones and hues”.

You mention www.cherrypicked.com they have their own grading system. I can tell you that their grading system is pretty darn good; because I had my sapphire graded using a GIA system and they compared nicely. Also on cherrypicked they have "plain English" comments for each gem - like "this stunning example...." Also you can use their "compare" feature to check out others that they have or have sold in the past and see what the prices do with different grades.

As for trying to determine what you like in a sapphire – that is tough. I spent months looking for my gal’s sapphire. I went to low – middle and very high end stores in Chicago to get a feel for what expensive fine quality sapphires look like – and what I liked myself. Honestly I like both light and medium tone sapphires, but not dark.

You should retain the services of an independent appraiser/lab to help you review the sapphire during the pre-purchase/return period. They will give the thumbs up or down - and what it is worth before you shell out the big bucks. Some will give you the plain English comments you seek. I enjoyed (as did my Wife) what Richard Sherwood wrote about mine - in addition to all the technical grading.

If you are looking at a very expensive sapphire (which a fine 5 ct + sapphire would be!) then you should consider having a “big boy” cert from GIA, AGTA, or AGL to go along with your expert appraisal.

Have fun!

 

[Edward Bristol]

Yes,
it is a habit of the gem trade to get lost in scientific studies when a buyer just needs an honest opinion of an honest seller (if there is such a thing).
But one has to distinguish between those in (vain) search of the beautiful truth and those who make it complicated to sell whatever they got to sell.
However, it is the responsibility of the seller to provide the buyer with enough (but not too much) information to make his decision. If a seller can not deliver that, don’t buy from him.
What would we say if we buy a car and the salesman starts talking hardcore-technical stuff until our head spins? Or he simply says: "I don''t know really. You have to feel it." Both extremes will make a buyer walk.
In the end it is about an understandable decision basis (like overall grade = price) plus the poetry (marketing) that surrounds gems and, above all, the trust into the seller.

Edward Bristol
www.wildfishgems.com

 

[Sagebrush]

Honestly, I just don't believe that the industry can't come up with (and agree to use) a good, easy to understand grading chart. Artistry aside, I just can't believe it's that hard to do or that the equipment doesn't exist. For crying out loud, we put a man on the moon...

.



[/quote]

As Bill Clinton often said "I feel your pain." You might take a look at the short debate between myself and Dick Hughes on the subject of beauty in ruby.

Problem is you are looking for a simple solution to a complex problem. Aesthetic judgements are qualitative not quantatative. Now there is some objectivity here but if you are unwilling to put in the time in study then here is my advise: If you don't know the product you should know the seller. A gem purchase is a blind one for you so your must decide who you will trust. If you went to the doctor and he told you that you needed a triple bipass, short of becoming a heart surgeon you must decide if you trust the man's opinion. You look him in the eye and make your decision.

When people buy from me they are really making a decision to trust me. In addition they are not buying a gem so much as they are buying my eye.

Sorry the whole thing can't be reduced to a series of A's double AA's and triple AAA's. Even the pearl systems you mention vary with each individual dealer. Trust or study, those are the options.

By the bye GRS does not have a system of qualitative judgement but Dr. Piretti usually reserves the term "royal blue" for particularly fine color.

 

[Gemklctr]

Date: 8/14/2005 8:08:06 AM
Author: Richard W. Wise
Honestly, I just don''t believe that the industry can''t come up with (and agree to use) a good, easy to understand grading chart. Artistry aside, I just can''t believe it''s that hard to do or that the equipment doesn''t exist. For crying out loud, we put a man on the moon...

.

As Bill Clinton often said ''I feel your pain.'' You might take a look at the short debate between myself and Dick Hughes on the subject of beauty in ruby.

Problem is you are looking for a simple solution to a complex problem. Aesthetic judgements are qualitative not quantatative. Now there is some objectivity here but if you are unwilling to put in the time in study then here is my advise: If you don''t know the product you should know the seller. A gem purchase is a blind one for you so your must decide who you will trust. If you went to the doctor and he told you that you needed a triple bipass, short of becoming a heart surgeon you must decide if you trust the man''s opinion. You look him in the eye and make your decision.

When people buy from me they are really making a decision to trust me. In addition they are not buying a gem so much as they are buying my eye.

Sorry the whole thing can''t be reduced to a series of A''s double AA''s and triple AAA''s. Even the pearl systems you mention vary with each individual dealer. Trust or study, those are the options.

By the bye GRS does not have a system of qualitative judgement but Dr. Piretti usually reserves the term ''royal blue'' for particularly fine color.[/quote]Richard is correct that one of the most valuable things a dealer can sell a consumer is his or her "eye". I work with 2 dealers who will search out gems that generally meet the criteria I set and then do the first (and sometimes second and third) cut until they have a manageable selection, which they bring in for me to choose from. Is that type of arrangement possible for you? Especially with colored gems, beauty is in the eye of the beholder and an experienced eye is invaluable (particularly to ensure pricing is appropriate) even if you have to make the final decision on what appeals to you.

 

[rubydick]

Gotta go with the Wise man on this one. It really is extremely complex.

Some girls give me money
Some girls buy me clothes
Some girls give me jewelry
That I never thought I''d own...

Richard has it right. Trust the DJ. If he/she is spinning tunes that pump you up, that get you out on the dance floor, then there is no shame in letting go. As a good friend of mine once told me: "When you dig deep, in each of us, there is a beast."

Primal. Desire. Fabulous. Disastrous. Give in to desire. Avoid temptation.

Sorry if I don''t have an answer. This is an age-old puzzle.

 

[politely]

Well, thanks for all the advice. Given that I need to get this wrapped up by the end of the week, I guess I need to make the plunge soon. Bah. I knew I should have started earlier (procrastinator for life!).

FWIW, I think this link gives a fair idea of the color I am looking at (same GRS color rating), although this picture is a tad brighter/lighter than what I have in memory - of course, they''ve blown up stone about 10 times actual size...:

http://www.faycullen.com/antique_sapphire_engagement_rings/800/c125r9sd.html

The trick with this color seems to be that it''s very nice close up, but I think from even a short distance will look black. Your opinions are welcome

-P

 

[colorchange]

Indeed, such sapphires don''t appear very nice when worn in my own opinion, I would advice some lighter one.
A vivid medium blue to medium strong blue is just so wonderfull ! To me a sapphire such as on the photo would surely not rate A in color ! Not even A because it''s too deep.
I have one square sapphire (4.5 Ct, radiant cut, just a wonderfull gem) that is AAA in color and rather B-C in clarity, it''s one hundred times nicer at a 30cm lengh than anything like AAA in clarity and B in color. As a result, though it an extremely nice gem, the price is quite resonable.
My advice would be to look for gems that look very nice at 30 cm to 1m distance and if it has small inclusion, don''t worry, it''s just giving your gem some personality.
If you want I can show you photos of the gem, you''ll have an idea...

 

[valeria101]

Date: 8/16/2005 11:36:13 AM
Author: politely

The trick with this color seems to be that it's very nice close up, but I think from even a short distance will look black. Your opinions are welcome.

I'd look for one that looks blue... and that's easier with lighter tones, even if saturation is not 'vivid' IMO.

 

[politely]

I bought the original stone - not w/o a fair amount of aggravation and angst! The deciding factor for me was in taking the stone to a different seller (not an easy process) who had a much wider selection and seeing it in comparison to the various color possibilities. All I can say is that pictures of stones, whether in books or on the internet are just not the same as seeing them in person.

It is in the process of being mounted as a pendant. I will try to post a picture when it gets done, which is the least I can do for the help you guys have provided.

Again, thanks very much for all the help & advice.

-P