HAVEN and other etiquette experts…

[pocahontas]

I’m getting conflicting answers from various online sites about the proper etiquette for addressing wedding invitations.I’m so confused and could really use your help.

Scenario 1. Married couple, but wife has kept her maiden name. Is she referred to as a “Mrs.” or a “Ms?” Outer Envelope – Mrs. Charlene Jones and
Mr. Michael Smith
or, - Ms. Charlene Jones and
Mr. Michael Smith
And, the names are written in alphabetical order regardless of gender, correct?

Scenario 2. Unmarried couple living together.The names are written in alphabetical order as well, right?Also, my understanding is that the “and” would not be used on the outer envelope as this typically implies marriage, correct?
Outer envelope – Mr. Carl Bradley
Ms. Cynthia Stone
Inner envelope – Mr. Bradley
Ms. Stone
Or, inner envelope- Mr. Bradley and Ms. Stone(is it okay to use “and” here?)

Thanks in advance

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[Smurfysmiles]

thank you for asking this, im procrastinating sending my stds out bc im afraid ill screw something up lol
this helps a bit

 

[Amandine]

Crane's was always my go-to for wedding etiquette. They have been around for a long time, and their advice tends to be formal.

Crane's Wedding Blue Book

scenario #1
Outside Envelope
Ms. Christine Pritchett
and Mr. Troy Clayton

Inner Envelope
Ms. Pritchett
and Mr. Clayton

scenario #2
Outside Envelope
Miss Christine Pritchett
Mr. Troy Clayton

or

Ms. Christine Pritchett
Mr. Troy Clayton

Inner Envelope
uses no "and"
Ms./Miss. Pritchett
Mr. Troy Clayton

The woman always comes first. When I addressed our envelopes, however, I didn't always follow the correct etiquette. If we knew the man better (and he was the primary invitee), and only knew the woman as his escort, then I usually listed him first. But that was just a personal preference of ours. We also went informal and used first names on the inner envelope.

Good luck!

 

[October2008bride]

If they don''t share the same last name, she is a Ms. So Ms. Charlene Smith and Mr. Michael Rowe.

As far as I understood, the woman always comes first in the scenario when she has taken her husband''s name because his name should never be split up.

i.e. Mary Smith and Michael Smith = Mary and Michael Smith.

Honestly, while I follow most etiquette, but the envelope thing really goes too far (IMHO). Seriously - if anyone got upset because you put Michael and Mary Smith, or Mary and Michael or whatever...jeesh!

I will tell you what I did. If we were friends with both people, or they were my parents guests, I did what my mom wanted (Mary and Michael Smith) but if it was my friend and her partner, I went with whoever my friend was first (i.e. I''m friends with Lynn Smith, so Ms. Lynn Smith and Mr. Jo Blow).

Inner envelopes - we didn''t do them but I received one once and it was nice - just first names inside. So formal outside, and "Michael and Mary" inside.

Either way - please don''t stress about this too much!! A) Most people won''t notice and B) It is hard to make such a huge mistake that someone would get upset.

If you are inviting someone with a date that you don''t know (and guest), I''d leave that for the inner envelope. My single girlfriends say it is sad to get the "and guest" on the outer envelope. Don''t know if that is ''proper etiquette'' but it was their preference and it made sense to me!

Good luck!

 

[CDNinNYC]

I read (from Emily Post) that Ms. should not be used in wedding invitations, only in business correspondance.

The names should be listed alphabetically: Mrs. Charlotte Jones
Mr. James Smith

 

[neatfreak]

I say do what you want. I really doubt people will be offended!

 

[alli_esq]

thanks for posting this! it''s great information

am I the only one here to thinks that "miss" is (regardless of the formal propriety) sexist?

 

[CNOS128]

Date: 12/11/2008 11:32:33 AM
Author: alli_esq
thanks for posting this! it''s great information

am I the only one here to thinks that ''miss'' is (regardless of the formal propriety) sexist?

No! I hate "Miss." I recently attended a wedding where the escort card said "Mr. [Fiance] and Miss TheBigT" and I didn''t like it one bit. Even my FMIL commented on how inappropriate it was.

 

[CDNinNYC]

Date: 12/11/2008 1:20:46 PM
Author: TheBigT

Date: 12/11/2008 11:32:33 AM
Author: alli_esq
thanks for posting this! it''s great information

am I the only one here to thinks that ''miss'' is (regardless of the formal propriety) sexist?

No! I hate ''Miss.'' I recently attended a wedding where the escort card said ''Mr. [Fiance] and Miss TheBigT'' and I didn''t like it one bit. Even my FMIL commented on how inappropriate it was.

I don''t have an issue with it. To me, Miss is for single women who have never been married. Ms. can be applied to any woman, single, married, or divorced.

 

[Guilty Pleasure]

Date: 12/11/2008 1:20:46 PM
Author: TheBigT

Date: 12/11/2008 11:32:33 AM
Author: alli_esq
thanks for posting this! it''s great information

am I the only one here to thinks that ''miss'' is (regardless of the formal propriety) sexist?

No! I hate ''Miss.'' I recently attended a wedding where the escort card said ''Mr. [Fiance] and Miss TheBigT'' and I didn''t like it one bit. Even my FMIL commented on how inappropriate it was.

Maybe I''m misunderstanding... are you unmarried? Did she call you Miss Yourlastname?

If so, that is correct. You are not married; therefore, you are a miss, regardless of age or relationship/ engagement status. The only thing I can find wrong is that you should have received your own escort card or not have been listed with an "and" attaching your names since you''re not married, but that wouldn''t bug me. If they had called you Miss Hislastname, that would be wrong.


What would have preferred?


For the record, no I do not think "Miss" is sexist. I am not even sure why someone would think that unless they''ve encountered discrimination or sarcasm while being called Miss soandso. It''s just a title that means "not married" in my opinion. Since I see nothing wrong with being unmarried, I see nothing wrong with being called Miss GP

 

[CNOS128]

I would have preferred "Ms."

For men, there is no title from which one can discern their marital status - that''s why some people think it''s sexist.

 

[Guilty Pleasure]

ah, that makes sense, so maybe "miss" will eventually be weeded out. I do not find it "inappropriate" however, since that is currently an accepted form for addressing someone. (unless you''ve told the person how you feel about miss and they call you miss anyways - that would be terribly rude)

 

[lovesparklies]

Regarding "Miss", most etiquette books I've read say to use it for single college-age women and younger. Older than that, use Ms.

Just my two cents! I've also had so many questions about this stuff, mostly about professional titles on my parents' invites and non-married couples for my and FI's invites. It's so confusing because different books use different rules! I think that means there's no one way to do it, right?

 

[wannaBMrsH]

Ah..Miss vs. Ms. I must admit that I''ve always preferred Miss to Ms. But, I think it''s because in Spanish Senorita is the equivalent of Miss (meaning never been married) and Senora is the equivalent of Mrs.

When I was much younger (16-1 my Dad and I used to run all his errands together (this was our time to catch up and chat-my parents are divorced). I always remember that one time at a bank, someone said, Good-bye, Senora! and my Dad was livid. He went back into the bank and stated that I was a "Senorita, Thank you very much. Unless you know her or something about her?" The guy was mortified and I was in shock because I had never seen my dad so angry. Talk about sexist! To equate the title to my virginity!

Somehow, my mom convinced me that this was my dad''s way of defending my honor (although looking back I don''t think the poor teller ever meant to put it in question!)....anyhow...sorry for the threadjack...I just never analyzed it before...maybe I will start using Ms. from now on! hahahaha!

 

[Clairitek]

Date: 12/11/2008 2:58:45 PM
Author: lovesparklies
Regarding ''Miss'', most etiquette books I''ve read say to use it for single college-age women and younger. Older than that, use Ms.

ITA with this statement. It feels weird, at 26, to be addressed as ''Miss''. I find that since I was about 20 if I had a choice of a box to check on a form and the options were Mrs., Ms, and Miss I always choose Ms.

Good thread though. This is all very interesting. FI''s mother is really into etiquette so I''m sure I will be running the envelopes for at least FI''s family by her before they get sent out.

 

[Guilty Pleasure]

This has nothing to do with what the rules are, but in my head, I associate Ms. with divorced women, probably because those are the only people I addressed as Ms. in my high school graduation announcements ten years ago! I''m 28, and I personally prefer "Miss" - I even correct my students sometimes when they repeatedly call me "Mrs. GP" since that would make me married to my dad

I use "Ms." when I''m writing other teachers/ parents or contacting vendors and don''t know if they are married. If I know someone is married, I use "Mrs."

I''m in a pretty conservative area right now though, so people are more likely to be offended here if you DON''T call them "Mrs."

 

[pocahontas]

 

[Pandora II]

Correct Form for Invitations - this is the very formal method:

Outer Envelope:

Married Couple - Mrs John Smith
Unmarried Couple - Miss Jane Jones & John Smith, Esq
Divorced Woman - Mrs Jane Smith
Single Man - John Smith, Esq
Single Woman - Miss Jane Jones

unless doctors:

Married Couple (she is doctor) - Mrs John Smith
Unmarried Couple - Dr Jane Jones & Dr John Smith
Divorced Woman - Dr Jane Smith
Single Man - Dr John Smith
Single Woman - Dr Jane Jones

Inner Envelope/Invitation:

Married Couple - Mr and Mrs John Smith
Unmarried Couple - Miss Jane Jones & John Smith, Esq
Divorced Woman - Mrs Jane Smith
Single Man - John Smith, Esq
Single Woman - Miss Jane Jones

unless doctors:

Married Couple (she is doctor) - Mrs and Mrs John Smith
Married Couple (he is doctor) - Dr and Mrs John Smith
Married Couple (both are doctors) - Dr and Mrs John Smith
Unmarried Couple - Dr Jane Jones & Dr John Smith
Divorced Woman - Dr Jane Smith
Single Man - Dr John Smith
Single Woman - Dr Jane Jones


'Esq' denotes Gentleman and should only be used when the man's title is Mr - if they are Dr, Rev, Professor, Sir etc etc then Esq is NOT used.

Even if a woman has kept her maiden name, she should still be addressed by her husband's surname unless it is a business event and she is attending in that capacity.

There are a gazillion other rules for nobility and gongs after names etc

If you are into this kind of thing, I recommend Debrett's 'Correct Form'. It mainly applies to the UK, but there is an American section in it as you guys have some differences from us: 'Ms' for women is more acceptable than it is here. You would write 'request the honour of your presence' whereas we have 'request the pleasure of your company' etc

Correct Form is central to my job, and I have found that sticking to the rules rigidly offends far fewer people - sexist or otherwise.

 

[Octavia]

Keep in mind that if you use Pandora's method but are in the United States, "Esq." is used for attorneys here (of either sex) and is only appropriate in business correspondence. If you mail something to "John Smith, Esq." here, it probably won't offend anyone but it will definitely confuse some people!

Also, if a woman has kept her name, I really wouldn't recommend addressing her by her husband's name unless you know she doesn't mind. It may be "correct form" but I know many, many women who would get fired up about that (including my future self -- it really irritates me when people jokingly call me "the future Mrs. FI'sname" now). I think it's more common for women to keep their own names in the US than in England, so this seems like another area where the rules are different in practice, if not necessarily in the etiquette books.

 

[CNOS128]

I think, personally, I would rather offend people by being "improper" than by using sexist conventions. We definitely know more people who would be offended by not being acknowledged as "Dr." if they''re married, (or by being called "miss" when they''re never married at age 65 or being referred to by their husbands'' last names) than by our not sticking to formal etiquette. But not everyone is in our situation! We tend to have very liberal friends and relatives.


Out of curiosity - are there any rules for same-sex couples who are married? "Messieurs John and James Smith?" "Mr. and Mr. John Smith?" "Mr. John Smith and Mr. James Doe?" "Mrs. and Mrs. Jane Smith?" Do they get their own last names? What if they are doctors (or one is)? What if they''ve had a ''commitment'' ceremony by not a legal marriage? Do they just get listed "Mrs. Jane Smith, Mrs. Betty Doe?" Or do they also have to be "Miss?"