hazing or torture activity?

[movie zombie]

interesting news article: http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20050814/ap_on_re_us/fraternity_death

Judge: Frat Could Face Torture Charges

A judge raised the possibility that four fraternity members could be charged with torture in the death of a 21-year-old pledge, comparing the alleged hazing death to the torture of Iraqi prisoners by U.S. soldiers.

Butte County Superior Court Judge Robert Glusman said Friday that a summary of facts in the legal motions filed by attorneys appeared to support that charge, which would carry a potential life sentence.

"U.S. soldiers were charged with torturing Iraqi prisoners for doing far less than what happened in that basement," Glusman said.

The four members of the now-defunct Chi Tau house at Chico State University are currently charged with involuntary manslaughter and hazing, which carry a maximum of four years in prison if convicted.

They are accused of forcing Matthew Carrington, 21, to drink large amounts of water while performing calisthenics in the frigid basement as part of initiation rite on Feb. 2. Carrington collapsed and died of heart failure due to water intoxication.

The judge raised the possible torture charge after the defendants'' attorneys argued Friday that hazing charges should be dismissed because the rogue fraternity was not an official student organization, and therefore not subject to hazing statutes — and that two of the defendants were not even attending college at the time.

Glusman said the torture charge would avoid the ambiguity of hazing laws. He continued the pretrial hearing to Aug. 26.

District Attorney Mike Ramsey said outside of court that the judge has the authority to add a charge of torture if he believes the evidence warrants it.

"We considered torture, but since it was a life term we felt hazing was a more appropriate charge," Ramsey told the Chico Enterprise-Record.

Defense attorney Dennis Latimer said he was surprised by the judge''s comments and declined to comment further.

Three other members of the fraternity face misdemeanor hazing charges.

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[fire&ice]

Water intoxication? Wouldn''t nature take it''s course? Seriously, never heard of this before.

 

[movie zombie]

f&i,

http://chemistry.about.com/cs/5/f/blwaterintox.htm

its how much you drink in a short amount of time that''s the problem. it seems that athletes and ecstasy users have a real problem with this........

also, see: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/08/10/AR2005081001460_pf.html

peace,movie zombie

 

[strmrdr]

sounds like reckless endangerment to me which is the same as manslaughter when it results in death.
That is likely the charge they would face around here.
10-20 years with no firearm involved if I remember right.

 

[aljdewey]

Date: 8/14/2005 6:24:05 PM
Author: fire&ice
Water intoxication? Wouldn''t nature take it''s course? Seriously, never heard of this before.

Oh, yeah - big time.

Your body requires a certain amount of sodium to function--it helps maintain the body’s electrical processes essential to transmitting nerve impulses and contracting muscles. When the body’s sodium content is depleted at the same time water level is increased, cells absorb more water and swell. Excessive water in the brain cells can cause seizures and death.

Serious stuff. Of course, you''d have to drink a TON of water......far more than the average person drinks in a normal day.

 

[fire&ice]

Wow, got me worried since I drink at least a a jug a day. And, that''s just plain nuts & should be regarded as such - so calculating. What ever happened to stealing the other frat''s statue or wearing your underwear on top of your head?

 

[MissAva]

Date: 8/15/2005 8:53:48 AM
Author: fire&ice
Wow, got me worried since I drink at least a a jug a day. And, that''s just plain nuts & should be regarded as such - so calculating. What ever happened to stealing the other frat''s statue or wearing your underwear on top of your head?

Those things are no longer allowed. Hazing statures were written with the intention of calming things down but in truth they did the opposite. I have been in on something’s. Because nothing can be seen any longer, i.e. no more public singing to the sororities, no more having to carry gum for actives so on and so forth they have to come up with things that can take in the houses or off campus. BAD IDEA. A house can get find between 500-1000 dollars (depending on the campus) for each violation they are caught with. So anything that doesn’t take place in their house opens them up to a great deal of money being owed to the university.
This upped the ante people not sleeping for up three days at a time (I did this and let me tell you I was a real charmer by the fourth day I practically snarled at someone for bumping into me on the quad.)
The thing is if you get caught painting the lions or taking someone’s so & so loves the football team sign not only cant you pledge any longer but your house can be shut down and you can be removed from school. For anyone else to know what is happening in the house, something either has to go terribly wrong, or someone has to rat them out. If you are there for pledge line you are not going to rat anyone out…so things get more aggressive because everything is hidden.
Girls have it somewhat easier but the boys have been hit hardest by this....it is terrible theses schools tried to makes things better but they just became violent instead.

 

[movie zombie]

when does it go beyond a prank and become torture? the article mentions that GI''s have been brought up on torture charges for doing less than these guys did.

peace, movie zombie

 

[diamondfan]

The Greek governing body (Panhellenic council) has supposedly, a while ago, tried to put an end to hazing. Somethings are in good fun, others are life threatening and stupid and people die. Seemingly harmless pranks can end in tragedy. It is different than abuse only if the person 100% willingly goes along, but I think more often than not they are "forced" to, to fit in, get into the fraternity...they probably do not really want to go as far as they are expected to. If it were harmless stuff, silly things, it would be fine, but it crosses the line..The difference is they can opt out before it is too late, if they have the wherewithall to say NO. Prisioners cannot. (Though I do not agree with human rights violations, I also have a hard time feeling sorry for some mean treatment to prisioners who murder rape and torture people...but think it lowers us to their level if we are too abusive) I had heard there are severe sanctions against fraternity or sororites who do this to the pledges. My dh, in college 20 plus years ago was locked in a sauna with a case a CHEAP champagne and told not to come out til it was gone. Made him SOO sick and he just now will drink very good champagne, but it still makes him sick to smell it most of the time. They also did something with tequilla and he hates the smell of that too. I wonder how many more kid are going to die senseless deaths before it totally stops? I just think some kids dream of being in a certain frat or sorority and will do anything to fit in. That is the saddest part...not having the esteem to be with people who accept you...

 

[MissAva]

Date: 8/16/2005 2:01:34 AM
Author: movie zombie
when does it go beyond a prank and become torture? the article mentions that GI''s have been brought up on torture charges for doing less than these guys did.

peace, movie zombie

You are both right. I was a member of Panhellenic (the girls governing council) and I knew the boys on the IFC which is the boys governing council. Everyone knows it goes too far. But becuase of traditions no one really wants it all to stop becuase then the things that have always been there and are on every campus where that house is would be gone too.
BUT some of it goes back forever and no wants to let go of those things, those of you who were in certain house know that some things were done to your grandmother and her grandmother as well so it is a right of passage to a certain degree in the family as well. Luckily for me I made it through just fine. But I know people who did not. Hazing in theory is supposed to make the pledge class come togehter to triumph over their adversity and so when they enter the house they have formed a true bond.
However when you get things that go so far none of it works. People focus on the worst moment of the whole 6-8 weeks (a few house you are a pledge for a year).
The thing is not every active knows/cares what is going on with pledges within each house, and it is not possible for those who are not directly involved to know what is really happening.
And yet most people say oh well it is all just for fun and no one is making them join. But when the military does less the go to jail and lose everything for ever. I know those with that power should be held to a higher standard and I agree with that. I just think that every year things get a little harder for pledges becuase the new pledge master wants the pledges to have a worse time of it then he/she did.

 

[movie zombie]

so, if the goal of hazing is to bring the class together in the face of adversity, can hazing then be equated to boot camp that GI''s go through? however, GI''s can''t opt out as mentioned that a pledge can.....something the GI has in common with a prisoner.

taking it a step further: the pledge feels the need to belong and goes along with the hazing no matter how dangerous....does the same apply to those thinking these things up and then instructing the pledges to comply or else? perhaps they also feel a need to belong and therefore carry on ''tradition'', taking things a step further?

peace, movie zombie

eta: sauna and champagne is a killing combination, btw.

 

[ame]

Wow. I hope this is an example and talks other morons out of doing this crap.

There is, rather, was a fraternity at my brother''s school that lost it''s charter because of ONE hazing event, and really it wasn''t very big of a deal from what my brother heard happened (which wasn''t relayed to me). But one parent complained and because of the zero tolerance rules, the frat was immediately finished.

I think every school with greek systems should have such a policy, though probably outline what is considered "hazing" or "initiation" beyond wearing underwear on the head and stealing a mascot.

 

[MissAva]

EVERYTHING IS HAZING NOW!
Being told you cannot have soda while a pledge is hazing, so is wearing a tie for boys and dress or skirt for girls. Learning your house songs is hazing, study hall can be, so can dinners with the actives....when you outlaw too much things get worse not better.

 

[AGBF]

Date: 8/14/2005 10:23:14 PM
Author: aljdewey
Serious stuff. Of course, you''d have to drink a TON of water......far more than the average person drinks in a normal day.

My father works with many schizophrenics as the clinical director of a program for the mentally ill. A couple of people living in a halfway house, perhaps made thirsty by their psychotropic medications, routinely drink too much water and have to be hospitalized. It is, indeed, dangerous.

Deborah

 

[movie zombie]

Date: 8/18/2005 12:02:42 AM
Author: Matatora
EVERYTHING IS HAZING NOW!
Being told you cannot have soda while a pledge is hazing, so is wearing a tie for boys and dress or skirt for girls. Learning your house songs is hazing, study hall can be, so can dinners with the actives....when you outlaw too much things get worse not better.

i''m going to get flamed for this but i started this thread so here it goes:

i''m having a hard time understanding how the law is to blame for this. it has always been against the law to endanger another person, to do them bodily harm...whether it be a prank or deliberate. hazing is one thing, endangerment another.

from the testimony in this thread, it would appear there is an acceptance of some forms of dangerous hazing because of tradition and the binding with generations as having gone through the same. some of those forms appear to be endangerment and always have been against the law. perhaps it is our acceptance of hazing endangerment as ok that makes those in this administration believe that guantanamo is no more than frat house pranks....and given the accounts related in this thread, they appear to be right. frat house pranks = life endangerment/torture.

when did it become ok to do more than have guys wear skirts to classes, etc.? don''t blame rules and law for people making the decision to be sadistic.

peace, movie zombie