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Heat treatment of gems, What do people really think?

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lonewoodminer

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It''s a question that comes up time after time: Is it heat treated? The answer in sapphire is of course almost always. This has been normal practice for hundreds of years. This being the fact, are customers really prepared to pay the 30% or so more, we have all heard about for guaranteed natural product, even if it often doesnt look as good. What do you think? Is there is a difference in market perception between routine heating and the more complicated treatments (eg. Beryllium, etc) or is it an "all or nothing" feeling from consumers? Would be interested to hear opinions from other on this issue?

cheers
Andrew
 
Heat treatment of sapphires doesn''t worry me. But I want to know the facts up front. As long as the consumer is fully informed, I don''t see a problem.
 
I can say that personally, I toyed with the idea of getting a ruby instead of a red spinel, just because good color was impossible to find in spinel. I was psychologically prepared to accept treatment as a necessity, but I was not able to stoop low enough (in my opinion) to accept a flux-healed ruby from Mong Hsu. So I think everyone has a line.

Of course there is a ready market out there that either doesn''t care, or more commonly, doesn''t know a thing about gemstones. And no jeweller that I know would disclose treatment information if not asked specifically about it. Simply because it''s assumed these days, I think they can get away with that.
 
Properly disclosed I dont have a problem with it.
Buy the stone the specs just determine the cost of entry.
 
Well, I''m one of those consumers/collectors that really wants my gems untreated...even though this probably isn''t logical... I seem to treasure and enjoy them more knowing that other than cutting, they are untampered with by human hands.

I also like to think that certified, untreated stones will hold their value better, if not go up, and might be easier to sell, should my heirs decide to, someday.

widget
 
I quite agree, but with heat treatment being used for some hundreds of years perhaps some famous and very valuable collectors pieces have been tampered with by our ancesters and goodness knows what they may have added in with the treatments. Just a mad thought ! I agree natural stone where you have some history of the source should grow in value faster than a stone out of a container of calibrated stones from who knows where.

Cheers Andrew Lane
www.aussiesapphire.com.au
 
Gems and jewelry are a highly personal choice - and often an emotional one.

Treatment of sapphires is one of those issues for me. In my case, when it comes to sapphires - it is either untreated (no heat, no diffusion, no nothing) or it is going to be completely synthetic. I feel once you start down the path of vairous treatments - I don't see the difference between lab treated and lab grown - they are all "man made" to me.

I consider the 20-40% premium for untreated sapphires a bargain. I would have paid double for untreated - if that's what the market had priced - but thats me. Of course, besides being untreated it had to be a fine looking sapphire - that was a given. Untreated does not mean better looking.

There is an emotional issue to me and my gal for her E-ring - that her fine sapphire came out of the ground with that color. The rarity thing is important to us. Many people come up to her to compliment the quality of the sapphire (the main thing) - but she enjoys telling them about the untreated nature of the Sapphire too. Something extra.

On the other hand - we are looking to make a diamond and sapphire necklace for her later this year - and we are going to use synthetics. We can't afford untreated and don't want to pay the premium for treated - so synthetics are good choice for us.

. Like others have said - If you educate yourself on treatments and you feel comfortable with it - then go with what you like and want to pay.
 
I agree with much of what you said, except to say that equating treatment with lab creation is perhaps a tiny bit too far. I would be more inclined to lump treatments (the non-invasive ones) in the same category as traditional faceting and polishing. Faceting is "interference" by man as well. Shoving it in an oven isn''t too much worse, is it? The truth is, people have been treating with heat for centuries, so you can even rationalize it by saying it has some heritage and mystique.

Now that argument falls apart when we get into Be-impregnation and heating with high temp. flux, and this new lead-glass treatment. Those are very obvious tamperings. But the heat itself, at least low temp heat, can be thought of not as interfering with or correcting nature, but "improving" it, the same way faceting is. As long as it''s disclosed, as you say.

Now, how much would a high high quality lab-created 2ct ruby cost, by the way? I am wondering if the really good lab stuff still costs a pretty penny. I am thinking of "down the line" as well, in terms of pendants or necklaces.
 
Is it just for show ? counting just "looks for the money" untreated cannot win. I wonder why would anyone waste rare gems on fashion conscious, disposable jewelry. Treated material already has more than enough pedigree to show for themselves.

Once other considerations beyond adornment come into play it's everyone's call to define "rare", "valuable" and "collectable". You guys say it better them I
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It appears that gem quality lab grown ruby goes for around $500 per ct. My current researches lead me to www.chatham.com which is mentioned as being a top source of lab created sapphires and rubies.
 
I have no problem with either treated ot untreated as long as I am told and the sapphire is priced accordingly. I agree that untreated stones often don''t look as good as treated but that''s one of the joys of gems. They never look the same as each other regardless of treatments. I also think it comes down to cost and time. If you can afford untreated gems and have the time and rescources to hunt down the exact gem you are after then go for it. Heat treament just opens up a few more doors and adds a few more options.
 
I think that heat treating is fantastic ! There are a tremendous number of very fine gems on a lot of fingers due to heat treatment. Without it, many of us would not be even discussing the merits of treatment, since the untreated stones would be the only ones available and would be even more expensive than they are. Mind you I am not advocating treating eveything, but in those stones that will benefit dramatically from heat treatment it is wonderfull. I would also buy a very fine blue sapphire that had been heat treated over one of inferior beauty that was priced the same because I would be buying it for it''s beauty and not so that I could tell people about the story behind the stone. I don''t think that too many people realize that many stones that they buy have had some treatment applied to them. Tourmaline, topaz, and aquamarine come to mind and most people don''t mind that at all. My basic opinion is, "If heating will dramatically improve the way the stone looks, cook it !" If the stone will be improved very little, then why mess with perfection ? It just depends on the stone and the end result.
 
BTW I am supprise that the all time winner of heat treatments has not been mentioned yet.....................................................................................................................

.....................................................................................................................

.....................................................................................................................

.....................................................................................................................

................................................................................ TANZANITE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Without treatment tanzanite is no where near as pretty and it is so accepted as a being a stone that need to be subjected to tretment to realise it''s ull beauty and potential that it is hardly even mentioned these days.
 
Does anybody know how much they charge for synthetic sapphire in relation to natural?

In regards pricing of natural sapphire I always wonder if people really want natural why we should charge a premium, it costs me more to cut heated as these must always be perfect and a heated stone with even the slightest inclusion is near impossible to sell,(especially wholesale). Yet if we cut fully natural, buyers dont mind a bit of inclusion or silk showing in the finished product? Then we charge 30% more for something that has cost less to produce! Sounds a great business plan.

Cheers Andrew Lane
www.aussiesapphire.com.au
 
Hello,
As you know I''m a strong advocate of unheated gemstones. I can pay more than double to have the same perfection but without any other improvement than cutting and polishing... and when I think deeply after looking at the beauty of some crystals I''m even thinking that they should be let as they are: Naturally beautiful.
But I understand that most people does not have the same approach about gems. I completly agree with people that just want something grown in the earth and turned beautiful by human skills.
As long as the customer knows what he is buying there is no problem in my opinion about any treatment, any synthetic or any assembled stone. They are all fine... If you know what you have!

All the best,
 
Michael E. isnt allowed to promote himself so I will do it for him.
If you want a top of the line synthetic sapphire or ruby talk to him.
He will custom cut one for you a lot cheaper than than the overpriced chatham stuff and it will be better cut.
imho chatham is smoking dope on there prices there is no way its worth that much.
 
Mogok is so right,The stones that can be cut without any treatment at all and end up as top class gems should be worth double as they are extremely rare but they just dont seem to sell. I think a lot of people buy on price and looks - thats ok as long as treatment is fully disclosed. At the lower end of the market, I think price might be the only consideration - hard to compete with synthetics at this price point. At the higher end of the market, consumers are much better educated and know what they are looking for.

cheers
Andrew
 
Date: 1/31/2005 2:56:39 PM
Author: lonewoodminer
At the higher end of the market, consumers are much better educated and know what they are looking for.


cheers

Andrew
Click to expand...

I take exception to that.
I buy mostly by choice but somewhat by need at the lower pricing levels and am educated about the ins and outs of gemstones more so than most.
I just dont see the need to spend big bucks to get enjoyment from gemstones.
To imply that someone is better educated about gemstones because they only want the high priced stuff is highly insulting.
If I cant see the difference with my eyes then its money down the toilet for no good reason.
 
I think that I may have come off to strongly in this and previous posts regarding heating. After reading Mogok''s post I think that I would have to agree with him that some things would best be left untouched. I have a star sapphire that is so clean and clear that it coule have been faceted. Had it been heated it would have been an even "better" color, but the star would have been destroyed. Quite a shame that would have been. Some crystals that are of fine form should never be cut. I''ve collected a number of these over the years and I''ll never cut them as they are just too nice the way they are. The sapphire that I was referring to are the stones with so much silk that they don''t have a chance of ever being attractive and wearable without treatment.
I did have one question for both Mogok and Andrew. I have seen references to the use of heat treatment to lighten overly dark sapphire and I had always thought that to be impossible. Do either of you know if sapphire can be lightened in its saturation through the use of heat ? Do you routinely heat the sapphire that you mine Andrew ?
 
I dont believe in deleting my posts but I want to say that I think I took lonewoodminer's post the wrong way and was a little grumpy.

Sorry about that.
 
Gday all

I certainly had no intention of implying that only peaple who buy higher value product know gems that certainly isnt true . This whole business revolves around all ranges of product. Some of my favourite pieces are worth next to nothing out in the market place but there not for sale!

In regards to michaels question , Im certainly no expert in heat treatment. We never heat any of our rough that we sell but until recently have heated all our cut stone,mainly because its what has always been done. We have been cuting some in the last few months natural with good results. In regards lighting sapphire I have heard of the Thais changing the atmosphere in the oven during cooking to achieve results along these lines, but I have no direct proof of it . It would be a major problem if the chinese disscovered a way to do this as it could easily flood the market. ( They appear to have vast reserves of very dark sapphire in china)

Cheers Andrew
 
Hi, all...

This is news to me. For some reason, I always assumed stones were heated in the rough, and then cut and polished...

What would keep an unscrupulous dealer from cutting stones, getting them certified by reputable labs as untreated, and THEN cooking them to improve their appearance??

Is this ever done?? If so, this begs the question: If you can''t trust a lab report, what CAN you trust?
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widget
 
I like unheated stones too and given the choice would rather have them. When I got a sapphire I went out of my wa to find one that was unheated. They just seem special and I like the idea that the color came out of the ground that way. But if a stone was heated and I liked it I would buy it.
 
Date: 2/1/2005 11:39:10 AM
Author: widget
Hi, all...

This is news to me. For some reason, I always assumed stones were heated in the rough, and then cut and polished...

What would keep an unscrupulous dealer from cutting stones, getting them certified by reputable labs as untreated, and THEN cooking them to improve their appearance??

Is this ever done?? If so, this begs the question: If you can''t trust a lab report, what CAN you trust?
23.gif


widget
Click to expand...
What I meant was that in the past, the rough that we intended to cut was heated before cutting (ie. heated while in the rough) and then offered as heat treated cut gems. Now we are attempting to target those customers who prefer totally natural and are cutting sapphire without any heating beforehand. I''m not sure that you could heat a cut gemstone with good results ?? Perhaps others might know more about this.

cheers
Andrew
 
Hi. Just to clarify if you get a cut stone heated you have to finish polish it again.


Cheers Andrew Lane
 
Hello,
To answer Micheal E, I would say that heat treatment using beryllium will lower the blue coloration of any stones as it is cutting the charge transfer couple formed by Fe2+ and Ti4+ (that gives blue color in sapphire)
The problem is that the iron liberated will most of the time add some yellow to the stone so attempts to lower the blue coloration of dark blue sapphire practically turn them to a greensih stone which is not a valuable improvement.

So currently nobody is performing the thing as the process is not really operational...

All the best,
 
Thanks mokok

I had no idea they are trying beryllium on blue sapphire!

Cheers Andrew
 
Hello Micheal,
Well in fact I think that here people try everything and then follow the good track. If the things does not turn good they try differently again. Burners here have traditionally an experimental approach of science: They get a new furnace, some new flux, a new technique: They try everything immediatly on all the stones that were not giving good results. Sometimes they loose a lot, sometimes they succede!
Then they try with this success to cover their losses...
In the west people do differently: They make models, think, and then make some experiments.
Western scientists are not gamblers... They dont take the same risks as Thai Burners.

Thai burners are to me some kind of alchemists: turning lead to gold... but they are not good in marketing.
They create beautiful stones but keep their mouths closed.
For the Geuda and Mong Shu stories it has worked well but this "secret attitude" has found its limit with the beryllium issue:
Now other people name their stones, speak about them and finally kill their dream of success.

Western players are now watching more closer to what happen here: They want to create the trend and not to be imposed products.
They have the power to make major labs to go their way in order to protect the gem business (Their business...)

Believe me Thai burners have tried to make dark blue sapphires less dark: I''ve personally seen some samples 2 years ago in a burner working room in Bangkok while I was searching samples to study. But well it was visibly not good enough. They will keep trying as Thailand is not a major gem producer anymore. It is a major gem trade center as they are the best burners. If they loose that... Well they will be out! So they will continue to try to do something good with all these stones that looks as attractive as lead and they will continue to try to transfprm them into usable gems for the gem industry.
One of my friend here call them magicians. They will probably one day find a way: Good stones are rare in the market and without treatment there will be nothing "natural" to weir. I love unheated gems, but my friends that love jewelry just dont really care as much as me about that.
And people sharing the opinion of my friends are much more common than untreated addicts like me.

Now these days things look to change a little bit about the way Thai burners act regarding to treatment communication: I''ve been welcome by many burners in the country that were very pleased to show what they were doing and how: I bring regularly my students to burning places to witness gem treatments. I was able to witness and take picture of many gem treatments... I think that some Thais were very hurt to be called cheaters... Dont get me wrong, some are probably cheaters and some western dealers are also. But many of them are just guys trying to do a good job and get as much profit as they can from that... I know many western dealers also in this case!

But currently to be back and finish with the subject: There is to my knowledge no real good succesful treatment to improve the dark blue sapphire.
In theory it is nevertheless possible, the major problem is not to cut the blue but to cut the blue and avoid the green to come! May be one of these days some guy will find a way...

All the best,
 
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