Help identifying crystal structure of this gem

[westwoodguy]

Hi all,

I new to this forum and was wondering if someone could help me identify what this sapphire is. I am new to gemstones so please don’t laugh at the tests and comments I’ll be posting as it is just what I could find on line. I know that the right way to identify this is to take to a gemologist but not interested in paying $100+ at this point as I have my doubts gem is natural so not worth it. I tested the stone with a diamond tester and it tests 8-9, then I placed it on cell phone light only to see what is shown in pic attached. I viewed under a loupe and cannot find a similar picture of what I am seeing anywhere so was hoping maybe someone here could help with. I see (try to best describe this as I don’t think my picture is best) what to me appears to be several white fiberglass strands along with a sort of cloudy with really small bubbles. I also see straight lines on what appears to be the facets that everywhere on line says is indication of lab grown but to me it appears on surface almost like marks from polishing.
I am being told this is natural with “Heating with reside means these gems are heated in vacum chamber in presense of argon gas and powder to avoid breaking of gems during treatment process”.

Are pictures clear enough to tell what this is?

 

[pokerface]

You cannot take an adequate photo of a gem's internal structure using only a cell phone. If you take some regular photos of the whole gem in natural light, some of the experts here can take an educated guess. If you've bought this gem from ebay or a similar platform for very little money, the value will certainly not exceed the cost.

 

[westwoodguy]

You cannot take an adequate photo of a gem's internal structure using only a cell phone. If you take some regular photos of the whole gem in natural light, some of the experts here can take an educated guess. If you've bought this gem from ebay or a similar platform for very little money, the value will certainly not exceed the cost.

The picture posted was using my cell phone through a 30x loupe, what you are seeing is mostly what you see looking through the loupe.

 

[VividRed]

Very large, relatively clean, poorly cut, and cheap

I have one that looks extremely similar to yours and weighs 25 carats. Bought it on ebay for 10 bucks, it is synthetic corundum. I suspects yours is too.

How much did you pay for it?

 

[pokerface]

Looks exactly like a synthetic.

 

[westwoodguy]

$20 bought this knowing it’s not natural but more for educational I am trying to understand what to look for and what different internals are so when I do invest I know what I’m getting. I have not seen anywhere this fiberglass like structure so I was hoping someone recognized it.

 

[westwoodguy]

Looks exactly like a synthetic.

By synthetic you mean sapphire grown by synthetic process i.e. lab grown?

 

[VividRed]

By synthetic you mean sapphire grown by synthetic process i.e. lab grown?

Yes, exactly the process is called flame fusion and was discovered by a Frenchman called Verneuil. It is very cheap and takes little time (less than 1 hour) to produce a “boule” on rough material. Chemically it is the same as natural corundum (aluminum oxide).

There are other, more complicated and expensive processes to produce corundum in a lab, one of which involves recreating the conditions in nature (heat, pressure, chemical soup) to grow a crystal from a seed of natural ruby.

I have synthetic corundum (blue and red) and emerald, done with different techniques. What you may see under the loupe are growth lines or tiny gas bubbles. I have never heard of fiberglass type inclusions though

 

[theredspinel]

I don’t understand this method of buying a piece of plastic or glass or something and then looking at it, not knowing what you’re looking at or supposed to look for, then expecting yourself to be “learning” all about natural, earth mined, minerals and crystals turned into gemstones.

Please start off your education with a minerals science book.

 

[westwoodguy]

synthetic corundum

we are talking lab grown corundum right?

I don’t understand this method of buying a piece of plastic or glass or something and then looking at it, not knowing what you’re looking at or supposed to look for, then expecting yourself to be “learning” all about natural, earth mined, minerals and crystals turned into gemstones.

Please start off your education with a minerals science book.

huh my apologies I thought this was a place to come to talk about and educate oneself on colored gemstones? An awful lot of arrogance in responses to something I am trying to educate myself on.
As for methodology I researched what Natural gemstones crystal structures should be and look like, my wife has several natural pieces so I viewed them under the loupe as well. When I purchased this it was listed as natural and came with a certificate of authenticity but there is no way that a natural flawless 10 carat sapphire will ever cost $20. This intrigued me so I purchased to see what it looked like and determine what it actually is. It was only $20 so who cares. In reading responses to this thread it appears that others who have knowledge of these matters don’t know what this fiberglass structure is or have not seen it so help me understand what a minerals science book will tell me? If you bought this book and read it maybe you could post what you think I am looking at is rather than talk down to me?

Happy Holidays to you!

 

[westwoodguy]

Yes, exactly the process is called flame fusion and was discovered by a Frenchman called Verneuil. It is very cheap and takes little time (less than 1 hour) to produce a “boule” on rough material. Chemically it is the same as natural corundum (aluminum oxide).

There are other, more complicated and expensive processes to produce corundum in a lab, one of which involves recreating the conditions in nature (heat, pressure, chemical soup) to grow a crystal from a seed of natural ruby.

I have synthetic corundum (blue and red) and emerald, done with different techniques. What you may see under the loupe are growth lines or tiny gas bubbles. I have never heard of fiberglass type inclusions though

I wish I could take a better picture to post if I can I will post. My apologies for Any confusion but these fiberglass looking strands are throughout the entire stone I am guessing that it is the crystal structure. I could have have sent to gemologist to evaluate but don’t feel like paying $30 for a $20 piece. Knowing me not knowing is going drive me crazy and probably will.

Thanks for your help!

 

[theredspinel]

we are talking lab grown corundum right?


This intrigued me so I purchased to see what it looked like and determine what it actually is.

How exactly are you planning to determine what it actually is?

By your logic I guess I could go around and dig out rocks and stones from the soil and just magically determine what they are.

I could sneeze into a tissue, look at it and magically determine what virus it actually is.

I really do apologise for sounding ridiculous I’m just trying to show, how ridiculous this thought process is. You need a basic knowledge base, then tools then tons more knowledge to know “exactly” what things are. That’s why we have testing / professions / experts / classes / labs / equipment etc.

Louping things and asking strangers really doesn’t cut it… contrary to what many people seem to think on this forum!

I appreciate doing that for fun because you’re bored, but to actually think it as educational.. I can’t.

 

[westwoodguy]

How exactly are you planning to determine what it actually is?

By your logic I guess I could go around and dig out rocks and stones from the soil and just magically determine what they are.

I could sneeze into a tissue, look at it and magically determine what virus it actually is.

I really do apologise for sounding ridiculous I’m just trying to show, how ridiculous this thought process is. You need a basic knowledge base, then tools then tons more knowledge to know “exactly” what things are. That’s why we have testing / professions / experts / classes / labs / equipment etc.

Louping things and asking strangers really doesn’t cut it… contrary to what many people seem to think on this forum!

I appreciate doing that for fun because you’re bored, but to actually think it as educational.. I can’t.

So using your basic knowledge, experience, lab work, testing experience, equipment usage then tons of additional knowledge you haven't come across a crystal structure like what I am describing? You realize that I am asking for opinions here not documented evidence?

 

[theredspinel]

So using your basic knowledge, experience, lab work, testing experience, equipment usage then tons of additional knowledge you haven't come across a crystal structure like what I am describing? You realize that I am asking for opinions here not documented evidence?

What makes you think I am saying I am a qualified person to ask?

My opinion is it’s those pretty gems you get in packets from hobby craft.

My opinion is it’s a real 10ct sapphire and you’ve hit the never in a lifetime jackpot.

My opinion is it’s a natural, from the earth, blue coloured sediment… quartz crystals if you want. Sand (Glass is made of sand)!

Choose whichever opinion you prefer as the point of my previous posts clearly aren’t being heard.

 

[chrono]

You might enjoy reading more about verneuil corundum.

Verneuil Synthetic Corundum ID • Dangerous Curves • Lotus Gemology

Lotus Gemology examines Verneuil synthetic corundum, its creation, and how to detect synthetic ruby and sapphire by its gas bubbles and curved growth lines.

www.lotusgemology.com

 

[airplay355]

I think the plan is to examine this sapphire to see what it looks like in more detail, observe the things inside (like these strands) and then when shopping for a real sapphire, observe the supposed “natural” stones to make sure they’re natural. I think the question really is what do natural vs man made sapphires look like?

The pictures are too low res for anyone to tell and we don’t really know for sure what that stone is anyway.

So, if the above is really what you’re trying to do, books and websites are you’re best friend. This one was really helpful for me https://www.thenaturalsapphirecompany.com/education/sapphires-101/inclusions-in-sapphires/

But I still wouldn’t feel comfortable buying an uncertified stone like that. Certainly no one is selling earth mined 10ct sapphires of any quality for $20. But do you trust yourself to catch a fake by looking at inclusions? Certainly get your read on and enjoy looking at the stones you have, but when it comes to spending significant cash,
Leave it to the experts.

If I had to answer your original question about strands, are you even sure they’re inside the stone and not just an artifact you’re seeing as a result of the gems very poor polish?

 

[PrecisionGem]

The lines you see on the facets are not curved striae lines from flame fusion created material. They are small scratches left from the polishing. The stone was most likely polished with either 8000 or maybe 14,000 grit which does not leave a fine finish.

If it were flame fusion blue sapphire, then the color would be concentrated in either the crown, or the bottom of the pavilion, as the material when grown always has the blue color concentrate along the outside of the boule. This makes cutting large stone difficult. If it were material grown by the Pulled Czochralski method, then it would have cost way more. This material is expensive as far as lab created material goes, so there is no way anyone cut cut a 10 ct stone from this material and sell it for $20.

What you are seeing with your loupe is not the crystal structure, you won't see the crystal structure of a cut stone with a loupe. You are most likely seeing some kind of inclusion.

One thing to keep in mind: No one is going to sell a stone on eBay that is worth way more than what they are selling it for.

A diamond tester is going to tell you no useful information about the stone either.