Help me shop? Tourmalines and a Garnet

[Bojambles]

Hello, here's part 2 of my "consideration" list, appreciate all opinions on quality and pricing.

I only have vendor photos for these and I suspect that they're extremely overexposed so if someone has links to what I can more reasonably expect irl, will be grateful

1. Blue Green Tourmalines, 10ct+

I'm thinking that the photo may be overexposed and the tourmalines will not glow like that IRL, but how bad will it be?

Also after reading several threads on Pricescope, it seems that some particular colours like Indicolite, Minty Green, Seafoam and Blue tourmalines or Greenish Blue / Lagoon Blue are highly coveted and get large pricetags, but this doesn't seem to be a very pricey colour?
The vendor is quoting me ~380 / ct which I think is a bit high given that there is a tourmaline of a more coveted colour here at 5ct for 1,150

Blue green tourmaline help please

I'm even willing to buy big and get it re-cut...... https://www.gemrockauctions.com/auctions/flawless-1450-cts-superb-paraiba-green-natural-tourmaline-gemstone-598147

www.pricescope.com

... so same ct range but only 230/ct. It is a 5 year old thread so I appreciate that prices may have risen, but it's supposedly a less desirable colour so...should they be cheaper?




My dream quality - different pair that sold out very fast - how easy to get / common is something like this?



2. 5ct Pink Tourmaline, same vendor, quoted ~$200 / ct, is this reasonable?



3. Any suggestions on reasonable price ranges for the following:

5.86 tcw Pink Tourmaline



10ct+ tcw Pink Tourmaline Trillions



4ct Garnet

 

[musicloveranthony]

Tourmaline can be tricky, especially green/blue. They'll often have a dark C axis but be nice and colorful otherwise. It photos wonderfully, but in real life they look black or very dark in most scenarios. I wouldn't buy a tourmaline without seeing video of it in diffuse lighting being rotated through every possible angle in hand. All the stones you posted, except for the dreamy pair of blue/green tourmaline, make me suspicious for a dark or closed C axis.

Alex Webber (premiergemstones on instagram) has some nice tourmaline at any given time. I'd recommend to reach out to him. Otherwise, Alex Goncharoff (alex_goncharoff on instagram) is another I'd recommend

 

[Bojambles]

Tourmaline can be tricky, especially green/blue. They'll often have a dark C axis but be nice and colorful otherwise. It photos wonderfully, but in real life they look black or very dark in most scenarios. I wouldn't buy a tourmaline without seeing video of it in diffuse lighting being rotated through every possible angle in hand. All the stones you posted, except for the dreamy pair of blue/green tourmaline, make me suspicious for a dark or closed C axis.

Alex Webber (premiergemstones on instagram) has some nice tourmaline at any given time. I'd recommend to reach out to him. Otherwise, Alex Goncharoff (alex_goncharoff on instagram) is another I'd recommend

Thanks again! checking out both right now and getting very distracted by Alex Webber's lovely diamonds.

On Alex Goncharoff's page, he has some tourmalines in the same colour (so I guess what I like is actually lagoon and a coveted colour afterall...) and his photos don't seem as exposed, so I guess this is more what they would look like?

Was trying to catch the darkest angles of the video:

 

[musicloveranthony]

Thanks again! checking out both right now and getting very distracted by Alex Webber's lovely diamonds.

On Alex Goncharoff's page, he has some tourmalines in the same colour (so I guess what I like is actually lagoon and a coveted colour afterall...) and his photos don't seem as exposed, so I guess this is more what they would look like?

I know both of them are solid vendors who try to portray their products honestly

 

[T L]

I apologize if this was mentioned above, as I didn’t read all the posts, but you have to be really really careful to view green or blue green tourmaline in both sunlight and various artificial light. It can really black out in some lighting, usually sunlight.

Also, pink tourmaline can turn more brown in some lighting.

 

[nutellakitty]

U got to be carefully not to get the one with brown axis.

 

[qubitasaurus]

Have you tried looking at desiree gems? You'll be able to go see them in person. @icyjade bought a beautiful tourmaline from them recently. It's stunning .

 

[Bojambles]

I apologize if this was mentioned above, as I didn’t read all the posts, but you have to be really really careful to view green or blue green tourmaline in both sunlight and various artificial light. It can really black out in some lighting, usually sunlight.

Also, pink tourmaline can turn more brown in some lighting.

Thanks TL. The lighting / colour factor has been raised along with "open colour" and "c axis" but I'm not too sure what both mean.

Googling, it seems that "c axis" refers to the way a crystal is positioned? I really don't understand this and it's starting to get a bit mathematical which I may need to study more

But still very lost on what makes a gem "open" and not black out.

I'll be sure to ask for rotated photos as Anthony suggested, in different lighting conditions

On brown modifiers in pink tourmaline - I guess that's only discovered by asking for multiple photos in different lightings?

 

[Bojambles]

U got to be carefully not to get the one with brown axis.

Thanks! This is gorgeous. By brown axis, do you mean in face-up and rotating slightly from most viewing angles, there's brown?

Still trying to wrap my head around this axis concept.

I found these articles but am still trying to understand them:

How to Describe a Tourmaline Crystal by its C Axis - Gem Society

A tourmaline crystal can show many color combos. This system for grading the C axis of rough can help faceters visualize a gem’s color accurately.

www.gemsociety.org

THE C-AXIS, WHAT IT IS AND WHY IT IS USEFUL TO GEM CUTTERS

 

[nutellakitty]

Thanks! This is gorgeous. By brown axis, do you mean in face-up and rotating slightly from most viewing angles, there's brown?

Still trying to wrap my head around this axis concept.

I found these articles but am still trying to understand them:

How to Describe a Tourmaline Crystal by its C Axis - Gem Society

A tourmaline crystal can show many color combos. This system for grading the C axis of rough can help faceters visualize a gem’s color accurately.

www.gemsociety.org

THE C-AXIS, WHAT IT IS AND WHY IT IS USEFUL TO GEM CUTTERS

My ring does not have a brown axis. This picture shows an obvious brown axis. You can see the left and right sides are cut with fewer facets than the top and bottom sides. That is how they cut to hide it.

 

[nutellakitty]

This is an example of a brown axis.Hope it explains. Very commonly seen in pink tourmalines.

 

[Bojambles]

Have you tried looking at desiree gems? You'll be able to go see them in person. @icyjade bought a beautiful tourmaline from them recently. It's stunning .

Would it be her thread in May 2021?

I did go to Desiree but the tourmalines currently there didn't interest me... might be the current stock or maybe the lighting factor, I thought Icy's photos also looked better than the in-store photos.

Admittedly if the cushion already sold (she mentioned they already had a buyer waiting) I probably wouldn't have been interested in the rest of the stock as the cushion stood out the most in that photo

The pricing she was quoted looks good though!

 

[Bojambles]

Thanks @nutellakitty , very educational!

Does that means that that the gem, if rotated to the sides, is likely to show a brown colour?

 

[nutellakitty]

Thanks @nutellakitty , very educational!

Does that means that that the gem, if rotated to the sides, is likely to show a brown colour?

Yes. Most tourmalines come with one brown or grayish axis.
If all sides have vivid colors it will be nice. Cutters sometimes cut tourmalines to have two colors showing on the face. Something like neon green+blue will be beautiful and expensive.

Tourmalines with brown tone to me are not desirable.

 

[icy_jade]

With tourmalines I’ve learnt the hard way that vendors can really take flattering shots of their stones and now much prefer to buy irl even if I have to pay a bit more.

 

[T L]

Yes. Most tourmalines come with one brown or grayish axis.

And some have an almost black axis that very little light can penetrate.

 

[qubitasaurus]

Would it be her thread in May 2021?

I did go to Desiree but the tourmalines currently there didn't interest me... might be the current stock or maybe the lighting factor, I thought Icy's photos also looked better than the in-store photos.

Admittedly if the cushion already sold (she mentioned they already had a buyer waiting) I probably wouldn't have been interested in the rest of the stock as the cushion stood out the most in that photo

The pricing she was quoted looks good though!

I think there has been several rounds of stock this year . It may be hard to place photos in the context. Some rounds definitely looked far better than others. I also find photos under desiree's store lighting very difficult to read actually. I need to look for photos shot outdoors (or be allowed to see it outside) to get a better feeling for what the stone actually looks like.

You could also look at gemobsessed. She does not have a physical shop front, so I guess no B&M costs built into her pricing. She will generally meet clients in SG, and I think does still mark up a little to cover this. But you will be able to check the colour before you buy if this is a big concern. She stocks a lot of tourmalines.

 

[icy_jade]

I think there has been several rounds of stock this year . It may be hard to place photos in the context. Some rounds definitely looked far better than others. I also find photos under desiree's store lighting very difficult to read actually. I need to look for photos shot outdoors (or be allowed to see it outside) to get a better feeling for what the stone actually looks like.

You could also look at gemobsessed. She does not have a physical shop front, so I guess no B&M costs built into her pricing.
She will generally meet clients in SG, and I think does still mark up a little to cover this. But you will be able to check the colour before you buy if this is a big concern. She stocks a lot of tourmalines.

Yup a few rounds of stock from what I know. Also, I always ask to bring the tourmalines out to see in natural light where they look so much nicer. So if @Bojambles only saw them in the store, I think they will look meh.

Gemobsessed isn’t cheap though it’s online right? No B&M costs but she prices at premium.

 

[qubitasaurus]

Yup a few rounds of stock from what I know. Also, I always ask to bring the tourmalines out to see in natural light where they look so much nicer. So if @Bojambles only saw them in the store, I think they will look meh.

Gemobsessed isn’t cheap though it’s online right? No B&M costs but she prices at premium.

Yes, this is a very astute assessment of both vendors . I would say this is my typical experience of both.

 

[Bojambles]

Yup a few rounds of stock from what I know. Also, I always ask to bring the tourmalines out to see in natural light where they look so much nicer. So if @Bojambles only saw them in the store, I think they will look meh.

Gemobsessed isn’t cheap though it’s online right? No B&M costs but she prices at premium.

ah okay - I will bring them out into the light next time. I've always looked at them once or twice and thought that maybe they didn't have anything great from that round; should have brought them out.

yeah I've seen a few threads saying that her collection is curated nicely but at a much higher premium which I'd rather avoid?

 

[musicloveranthony]

I just bought a light green tourmaline from Jeff Davies. I expect it will be very nice. I've bought many stones from him over the years. He runs Davies and Son Fine Gemstones. He's very responsive, kind, and easy to work with. He has a huge inventory, so if you're looking for something particular it's worth asking him what he has - his listing on his site is a small portion of what he has available. If you search his name here on pricescope you will find many people have purchased from him and you'll see many examples of his stones, his jewelry, and his stones in finished pieces from other jewelers.

I'll try to attach a video of the tourmaline I got with info on what I see when I look at it. It's a nice, soft green. You can see in the video that it has a couple different colors as it moves. What you're seeing is the color shifting based on what axis is facing the camera. It's mainly green but you can see a yellowish axis when it tilts and when he flips it over there is a little hint of brownish tone. I don't mind those color modifiers at all since it faces up a nice light green and the price was fantastic

Home - Jeff Davies & Son Gemstones

High quality gemstones Shop Now UK based & precision cutting Shop Now View Full Range Shop Now Latest Gems Here are some of our latest gemstones. We cut on average 200 plus new gems every month and the majority sell before they get chance to get listed here. So please contact us if you can

jeffdaviesandson.com

 

[icy_jade]

yeah I've seen a few threads saying that her collection is curated nicely but at a much higher premium which I'd rather avoid?

Just saw from IG that she’s running a promo on tourmalines. Maybe worth taking a look. I mean, maybe it’s better you buy one good one rather than several wrong ones at cheaper prices. Works out cheaper in long run. Only if anything in her inventory that interests you of course

 

[Bojambles]

And some have an almost black axis that very little light can penetrate.

Hi TL,

I've been looking at a few videos of tourmalines and it seems that when they're rotated to be turned, they definitely darken significantly, sometimes almost black out.

Is this what you're referring to?

 

[T L]

Hi TL,

I've been looking at a few videos of tourmalines and it seems that when they're rotated to be turned, they definitely darken significantly, sometimes almost black out.

Is this what you're referring to?

Exactly!

 

[T L]

I just bought a light green tourmaline from Jeff Davies. I expect it will be very nice. I've bought many stones from him over the years. He runs Davies and Son Fine Gemstones. He's very responsive, kind, and easy to work with. He has a huge inventory, so if you're looking for something particular it's worth asking him what he has - his listing on his site is a small portion of what he has available. If you search his name here on pricescope you will find many people have purchased from him and you'll see many examples of his stones, his jewelry, and his stones in finished pieces from other jewelers.

I'll try to attach a video of the tourmaline I got with info on what I see when I look at it. It's a nice, soft green. You can see in the video that it has a couple different colors as it moves. What you're seeing is the color shifting based on what axis is facing the camera. It's mainly green but you can see a yellowish axis when it tilts and when he flips it over there is a little hint of brownish tone. I don't mind those color modifiers at all since it faces up a nice light green and the price was fantastic

Home - Jeff Davies & Son Gemstones

High quality gemstones Shop Now UK based & precision cutting Shop Now View Full Range Shop Now Latest Gems Here are some of our latest gemstones. We cut on average 200 plus new gems every month and the majority sell before they get chance to get listed here. So please contact us if you can

jeffdaviesandson.com

That would look spectacular surrounded by pink melee!

 

[Bojambles]

Exactly!

Hey TL, thanks so much for your time so far.

If you don't mind, I have a couple more questions as I'm trying to learn what's considered colour shift / blacking out in a stone and what's not.

I could be observing the wrong phenomena - it seems like the bulk of tourmalines have this issue to some degree?

Would you say that Anthony's stone from Jeff Davies has this?

Also would you then say that this stone from Litnon (no video), is unlikely to have it?

Special Color & Bright! Natural Tourmaline Afghanistan 6.70 ct GL - Litnon

 

[Bojambles]

They also describe these three stones specifically as having an open c-axis but I can't really tell the difference from the photos?

The second stone has quite a lot of darkening around the sides, thought that it might be an indication that it blacks out?

The third one looks very dark - despite having an open c axis?

Color! Indicolite Blue Tourmaline Afghanistan 2.47 ct GL - Litnon

Color! Open C-axis Indicolite Tourmaline Afghanistan 3.15 ct - Litnon

Color! Open C-axis Indicolite Tourmaline Afghanistan 4.0 ct GL - Litnon

 

[T L]

Hey TL, thanks so much for your time so far.

If you don't mind, I have a couple more questions as I'm trying to learn what's considered colour shift / blacking out in a stone and what's not.

I could be observing the wrong phenomena - it seems like the bulk of tourmalines have this issue to some degree?

Would you say that Anthony's stone from Jeff Davies has this?

Also would you then say that this stone from Litnon (no video), is unlikely to have it?

Special Color & Bright! Natural Tourmaline Afghanistan 6.70 ct GL - Litnon

It’s hard to say with the Linton stone because you would have to view it outdoors.

Anthony’s is a very bright stone, so I highly doubt it would black out.

Open c-axis gems tend to not black out, however, I have a greenish blue. tourmaline with a very dark c-axis, and it always shows up bright and blue green in all lighting.

 

[minousbijoux]

So there are two things that cause a tourmaline to black out: the stone's tone (or how dark it is) and whether or not the c axis is closed.

It's an interesting by product of how tourmaline crystals grow that oftentimes the c axis (the long axis if looking down the cylindrical crystal) is "closed," meaning little to no light is able to pass through. Here is a good description:

How to Describe a Tourmaline Crystal by its C Axis - Gem Society

A tourmaline crystal can show many color combos. This system for grading the C axis of rough can help faceters visualize a gem’s color accurately.

www.gemsociety.org

In addition, like all faceted stones, the stone's brightness depends on the actual tone of the stone, meaning how light or dark the stone taken as a whole is. Hope that helps.

 

[Bojambles]

Thank you, I know I'm jumping all over the place but basically I've realised that tourmalines and garnets are way more likely to give me size for buck than sapphires and emeralds, but lmk if you think I should start another thread for discussing garnets?


I've been eyeing umbalite for a while and one of the sellers recommended to me as not using filters and representing true to real life had these 2 pairs of umbalite:





These are snaps from a video so I tried to capture when they brown / black out, and the top LHS one seems to do so. I guess I should probably ask for shots in all lightings but want to see if the price is reasonable before I bug the vendor for more photos

The top pair were quoted ~ $60 / ct for a 5 tcw,
the bottom pair $120 /ct for 10 tcw

I've been checking out other recommended vendors like Gene (Precision Gems) etc and the pricing seems to be all over the place but possibly on the higher side.

Would anyone be able to comment?

Then one of the other vendors who seems to be trusted recently sold this 8.35 ct stunner (so larger than any of the gems here), for much much cheaper at $575 only, which is ridiculously cheap to the above pricing

I guess the stone might possibly be dark - this photo was stated as taken in daylight - and maybe that affects the price?