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Help needed princess cut

M

MickJ

Rough_Rock
Joined
Jul 28, 2022
Messages
8
Hi all,

I am new to this forum and relatively inexperienced in diamond selection at this point, so apologies in advance if the question is stupid.

I am about to propose to my partner and have been looking for some options recently. I contacted a very good and trustworthy jeweller and we have been discussion on the stone selection for quite some time. The setup is quite difficult as the jeweller is from France and I am currently abroad - I chose a French jeweller mostly because I grew up in Paris and I thought of having a ring coming from there would have a stronger meaning. The other difficulty is that the diamond options we've been looking at are all also located in various countries abroad which means that we can only refer ourselves to GIA report and photos / videos. I know that AGS would be probably a better benchmark, but unfortunately it is very difficult in our locations to get those.

Anyway, the current option I have been looking at is a 1.5 carat / VS1 / F princess cut diamond. I am attaching a zoomed-in photo of the diamond, the GIA report and a quick video that was taken. I am actually very happy with all the parameters so far but my only concern is that the vendor of the diamond does not have ASET / IS tools, and since this doesn't have AGS grading - I really don't know how to judge the "sparkle" of it... Can this diamond really go wrong? Even if not AGS0, would we see a real and significant difference in real life?

Thank you in advance for your help on this!!

PHOTO-2022-07-25-13-18-23.jpg

IMG_3603.jpg

Video of the diamond:

 
Tagging @Kim N and @DejaWiz who are good at interpreting. Also, did your fiancée specifically request a princess cut?
 
Hi and welcome to PriceScope, @MickJ !
Seems a bit dark under the table...could be obstruction from the camera. Definitely request an ASET image since they have this diamond on-hand.
 
Hi guys!

Thanks you for all the reply so far! You are amazing!!

@Daisys and Diamonds thank you so much for bumping this, this is lovely

@Mreader Thank you for the reference to the right people - that helps a lot! I also had some discussions with her in few occasions (not many as not to sound too suspicious) but yes, she would want a princess cut

@DejaWiz Thank you so much for the first opinion on this! Unfortunately ASET and IS won’t be an option as the vendor does not have these equipments it seems… To clarify, my jeweller doesn’t have this diamond on hand and we are basically looking in different locations, which makes the task really hard..

I know that the amount of information I have is not much and probably not enough to be certain that this diamond will « perform » well, but this will be unfortunately all I have.. I am of course not looking for the most perfect diamond in technical terms, but this is also, hopefully, my only chance at getting this right and have something she will be proud and happy of wearing. Any guidance based on these info would be extremely helpful…
 
GIA does not grade light performance (cut quality) for princess cuts.
AGS (American Gem Society) does.

www.whiteflash.com sells them under their A Cut Above brand.

That's the ONLY princess cut I'd consider buying.
Plus Whiteflash has excellent customer service and upgrade policy.
 
MickJ said:
Hi guys!

Thanks you for all the reply so far! You are amazing!!

@Daisys and Diamonds thank you so much for bumping this, this is lovely

@Mreader Thank you for the reference to the right people - that helps a lot! I also had some discussions with her in few occasions (not many as not to sound too suspicious) but yes, she would want a princess cut

@DejaWiz Thank you so much for the first opinion on this! Unfortunately ASET and IS won’t be an option as the vendor does not have these equipments it seems… To clarify, my jeweller doesn’t have this diamond on hand and we are basically looking in different locations, which makes the task really hard..

I know that the amount of information I have is not much and probably not enough to be certain that this diamond will « perform » well, but this will be unfortunately all I have.. I am of course not looking for the most perfect diamond in technical terms, but this is also, hopefully, my only chance at getting this right and have something she will be proud and happy of wearing. Any guidance based on these info would be extremely helpful…
Click to expand...

My recommendation would be to have your jeweler provide you a plethora of options that fit your overall budget so you have a fair selection to get an adequate means of comparison with and better your chances to get a great performing SMB/PC diamond.

*Eye-clean (unless you want intentional high clarity, then stick with VS1 or better)
* Not cloudy (especially avoid clarity based on clouds not shown, no matter how good the deal seems)
* Minimal light leakage
 
i do love a princess cut
makes me wish i was getting engaged :lol-2:
congratulations to you and your intended @MickJ
 
The knot on the table makes it a no go for me.
Cut wise is pretty good, the optical symmetry is spot on for a princess cut.
How well the angles work together is a question not answered in the available data other than a very broud view.
Cut wise potentially well cut but not likely poorly cut.
On a 1 to 5 scale it would likely be a 4 min. maybe higher. An typical princess cut would be around a 2.
 
I would prefer to see a smaller table to increase the crown area and resulting fire.
 
Kim N said:
I would prefer to see a smaller table to increase the crown area and resulting fire.
Click to expand...
To a large degree princess cuts don't work that way.
A princess cut pavilion with no crown can kick it.
 
Thank you so much guys for all these replies, that's amazing!

@kenny I know that AGS graded diamonds would be easier to choose from, but as said, I really want to stick with my jeweller and his options (which are GIA-based). Even though not the best to work with, I do trust the guy but also that the meaning of having someone from my hometown and where I grew up making it, makes it very important for me and I know it would also have a meaning for my gf. I mean, obviously I could go with your recommendation (which would probably land me a better diamond or at least the certainty of having a perfect one), but it would also lose a little message in it... Your help and recommendation is highly appreciated though! Thank you again!

@DejaWiz I actually saw quite a large amount of option already - but was probably too stupid just to go with what seemed better to me on paper before requesting videos. For some reasons, I also have this psychological limit where I don't want to go below VS1 (which is pretty stupid I know), which actually makes the selection not that wide as I am running right on / slightly above the budget. But regarding the option that was shown in my first message, it should be eye-clean, not cloudy (I guess?) - however, would we be able to tell or at least guess / estimate if it will have light leakage?

@Daisys and Diamonds Thank you!!!

@Karl_K Thank you for jumping in as well, this is so helpful. I understand that the cut is directly impacting the "sparkle" of the diamond, and in this case, a 4/5 would be pretty good in real life and perform fairly well? How would the angles affect everything? The knot does not bother me as much as it is eye-clean, but also agree with you that it unfortunately happened right on the table...
 
MickJ said:
How would the angles affect everything?
Click to expand...
A lot.
Think of a diamond as a collection of mirrors whose job is to return light to your eyes.
Optical symmetry means that the mirrors are in the right place and aligned in a 3d array.
Once aligned they have to be at an angle that can return light to the viewer.
So better cut can be defined as mirrors aligned and working together with angles that return light to the viewer. Not just one angle but all of them.
 
Karl_K said:
A lot.
Think of a diamond as a collection of mirrors whose job is to return light to your eyes.
Optical symmetry means that the mirrors are in the right place and aligned in a 3d array.
Once aligned they have to be at an angle that can return light to the viewer.
So better cut can be defined as mirrors aligned and working together with angles that return light to the viewer. Not just one angle but all of them.
Click to expand...

Exactly!

This is why I'd not consider a princess cut graded by GIA.
Perhaps your local jeweler could locate one graded by AGS if you asked.
Have you asked?
 
Thanks guys for the follow-up on this!

@Karl_K I see.. And the info we have so far can’t even let us « guesstimate » what the final cut potentially could be? Is there a risk to get something completely dull and random with this option still or it’s just a debate between having a very good cut vs. a perfect cut for light performance?

@kenny I remember him mentioning that he works only with GIA but I’ll ask to confirm.. It seems that AGS is not so popular in Europe for some reasons.. Obviously agreed with your point here that AGS would be better in this case to choose but rather difficult to get to be fair..
 
MickJ would your jeweler in France be willing to set an ACA PC from WF is it was shipped to him?
 
@DejaWiz I can try to ask but my concern then would be also around the budget since this will probably be above what I planned due to having 2 vendors / jewellers taking their margins on this ofc. I tried to ask him on few options I’ve seen on James Allen for example (although still GIA at this point), and the final price ended including the ring ended much above what I’ve planned
 
MickJ said:
@DejaWiz I can try to ask but my concern then would be also around the budget since this will probably be above what I planned due to having 2 vendors / jewellers taking their margins on this ofc. I tried to ask him on few options I’ve seen on James Allen for example (although still GIA at this point), and the final price ended including the ring ended much above what I’ve planned
Click to expand...

Another idea - ring from WF if you can easily find a well cut stone there, and wedding band from France?
 
A little late here as I already dropped a 10k euro upfront and we’ve been working also on the design of the ring etc. There has been too much work done at this stage to just pull out I’m afraid. We had a few options selected and the jeweler asked his contacts to also check in person a few of these stones. The diamond that I showed here was presented as « great » as per his words although not having the possibility to get ASET / IS at the vendor’s location.

The reason I asked that question here was mainly due to the fact that I couldn’t see the diamond in person, I am clearly not an expert in the field (rather the opposite) and I needed some comfort that I am not potentially buying a trashy diamond for a quite significant amount of money. You know, to an extent, my gf and future fiancee won’t be running around with the diamond and check every single technicalities on whether this is the absolute perfect cut or not. If the diamond is at least good enough and above what we can get at normal jewelry shops so it doesn’t look dull / average / bad and that it can make her be proud and happy of wearing it. That’s fine by me. I am the one who’s into numbers and technicalities and bad at making decision, not her, but the ring will be hers, not mine. What @Karl_K mentioned in his first message actually gave me quite good comfort around that already as grading this a 4/5 minimum cut-wise while the majority of stones out there would be 2/5. Of course, I want the best for her, but I also need to consider the budget, the travel expenses to a nice place to propose, the timing and everything else and stay realistic on what I can do with my current situation.

Of course, I understand that I am talking to very experienced people on this forum and I’m so grateful that you guys were so reactive and helping / giving advices on how to choose better options. This is far more than what I ever expected. But I am also assuming that your standards are probably much above the usual people, so a good enough from your perspective would be probably enough to amaze both myself, my gf and all the people that will see the ring on her finger.

I think the only thing that would make me rethink this would be that you guys are absolutely sure that this can still be potentially a very bad performing diamond and that it will be a disappointing ring for her.. If we are now trying just to move from a very good cut diamond to a perfect cut diamond - this option would be great already! :)

And again, thank you so much for all the replies and advices so far, I really grateful for that! I understand that I don’t have the easiest case ever and it can even get quite frustrating / annoying for some of you :)
 
It is highly unlikely that it is a dull and lifeless diamond and Im comfortable saying it will look nicer than many out there
If the crystal comes out of the knot it leaves a hole that traps gunk and can become more visible.
 
@Karl_K thank you again for all the advice - I am definitely comfortable with the cut now. Do you think the knot is such a big problem? I don’t actually even see it on the zoomed-in picture - will it actually be really bad and be visible with naked eye if the crystal comes out? And how likely can this actually happen?
 
MickJ said:
@Karl_K thank you again for all the advice - I am definitely comfortable with the cut now. Do you think the knot is such a big problem? I don’t actually even see it on the zoomed-in picture - will it actually be really bad and be visible with naked eye if the crystal comes out? And how likely can this actually happen?
Click to expand...
I am really not comfortable saying its not an issue without looking at it.
It may be small with just a tiny bit of the crystal showing. Which means little chance of a problem.
Or the crystal could be just barely hanging in there.
Talk to the seller about it and if they dont have the stone in hand, ask them to talk to the person who does.
 
Mickj, I'm not an expert like many on this forum, but I think you've found a beautiful white princess with an identifying inclusion that you can't see w/o magnification. And Karl has given it rather high praise. He's very restrained with his remarks, but if I were looking at a princess and read his comments above, I'd have bought it already. It seems like this diamond speaks to you.
 
Okay, I should have refreshed before replying. Have it inspected.
 
MickJ said:
@Karl_K thank you again for all the advice - I am definitely comfortable with the cut now. Do you think the knot is such a big problem? I don’t actually even see it on the zoomed-in picture - will it actually be really bad and be visible with naked eye if the crystal comes out? And how likely can this actually happen?
Click to expand...

In a VS1 that knot is not such a big problem. Especially since the crystal is the grade setting feature.

There is info at the link below related to AGS cut grading of princess, including a section called 'rules of thumb' . This is a summary article and there is a link at the top to the full article for those that want to take a deeper dive. https://www.whiteflash.com/diamond-education/ags-princess-cut-grading/
 
Thank you all for these amazing replies and advices! With all that’s been said, I will have a last confirmation on the knot by my jeweler and if all good, I will just go ahead and order the stone (hopefully still available).

I will never thank you guys enough, for guiding a young and completely inexperienced guy in his first diamond purchase. Indeed your bunch are extremely strict with your standards, but that also gives me a lot of comfort in making this decision!

I’ll obviously post here the final result once everything is done and set on the ring to show you what I ended up having!! :)
 
This is such a great example of why this PS is just the best - experts, real world leaders in their fields, helping a fellow out :kiss2::kiss2::kiss2: just so nice to see.
 
caolsen said:
This is such a great example of why this PS is just the best - experts, real world leaders in their fields, helping a fellow out :kiss2::kiss2::kiss2: just so nice to see.
Click to expand...

+ a billion. You beat me to writing this!
 
We're soooo wonderful! :mrgreen:

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