Help with Latin please!

[Pandora II]

I''ve had a sudden change of mind for my wedding and managed to convince FI that dinosaurs are not the way forward. Not because I don''t love dinosaurs, I do, but our venue is the site of the Battle of Hastings in 1066 and it seems silly not to use that - especially as its an odd venue and very hard to get hold of so won''t be done every week!

So, I''ve been looking at the Bayeux tapestry and want to use that as a design source - only rather a lot of it involves cutting peoples heads off - not really the look I''m after. So I''m going to do pictures in the style of and make panels to paint round the sides of my cake based on mine and FI''s lives.

Then for favours I want to stick with the fabric sachet with medieval herbs with special meanings for weddings, and stencil a design on the front that shows a Bayeux-esque bride and groom at a banqueting table. But I need latin words to say:

"Helen and Andy were married" and "26th July 2008" - can any of you Latin scholars help me out? I may well need help later on with other bits too I''m afraid and it''s years since I last studied latin.

 

[So_happy]

Pandora~ Have you tried online translator dictionaries? I did a quickie search on google and many seemed to come up altho I didn''t try them out. Do you have a language professor from University that could check what you''ve come up with? Since you took Latin back in the day, perhaps an email to someone in the department that remembers you would be a way "in"?

I''m intriqued by your wedding plans by the way!

 

[Lorelei]

I found an online translator too, but it didn''t translate the July date, did the other stuff though.

 

[Pandora II]

Sadly, we are talking 19 years since I last took Latin at school. I studied Textile Design at University!

I tried an online dictionary, but don''t trust it. I''ve seen what it does to Italian/English and can be very dodgy.

I hope the designs will work - just "won" a complete copy of the tapestry on ebay for £1 - hooray!

 

[Lorelei]

The only other thing I can think of is for a fee, some of the online companies offer a professional translation service, if nothing else pans out then this might be an option.

 

[isaku5]

I too studied latin at the university level for two years , but ::hangs head in shame:: that was 40 years ago and the latin phrases we worked with had nothing to do with wedding dates and modern names. I remember long passages devoted to crossing the Rubicon with elephants,

but your request has nothing to do with either.

Storm knows some latin; maybe you could page him

Do you have any latin scholars among your guests? If not,as a last resort, you could make up your own "latinsh phrases" and no one would be any the wiser

 

[sarahthewarrior]

Date: 4/28/2007 10:48:35 AM
Author:Pandora II
I''ve had a sudden change of mind for my wedding and managed to convince FI that dinosaurs are not the way forward. Not because I don''t love dinosaurs, I do, but our venue is the site of the Battle of Hastings in 1066 and it seems silly not to use that - especially as its an odd venue and very hard to get hold of so won''t be done every week!

So, I''ve been looking at the Bayeux tapestry and want to use that as a design source - only rather a lot of it involves cutting peoples heads off - not really the look I''m after. So I''m going to do pictures in the style of and make panels to paint round the sides of my cake based on mine and FI''s lives.

Then for favours I want to stick with the fabric sachet with medieval herbs with special meanings for weddings, and stencil a design on the front that shows a Bayeux-esque bride and groom at a banqueting table. But I need latin words to say:

''Helen and Andy were married'' and ''26th July 2008'' - can any of you Latin scholars help me out? I may well need help later on with other bits too I''m afraid and it''s years since I last studied latin.

Wow--classics major to the rescue again! Eight years of Latin here, and going to grad school next year for more!

First of all, do NOT use an online translator tool. Only real people can compose "real" Latin, and even that isn''t perfect. They just didn''t have the vocabulary for the things we have now. You''re guaranteed to look like a fool if you trust a machine.

Second of all, there are a few problems with what you want to write. Latin doesn''t really have an idiom for "H and A were married." What can I say--it''s a sexist language. I''m afraid it would have to read "A married H," or "H was married to A," and I don''t think you''ll like that as much. I could translate "H and A were joined together," which sometimes has a marital connotation, but even then it''s usually "H was joined to/with A." Would that work? Either way, I don''t think it''s going to sound as poetic as you''d like. And certainly not equal.

As for the date, do you just want Roman numerals but with our customary notation or something? That''s not how the Romans would have written it, but it would be simpler. The calendar of the Romans didn''t quite work the way ours does (that whole B.C./A.D. thing), so I assume you''d want it based on the Christian calendar.

Just let me know, and I''ll see what I can do.

 

[Pandora II]

Sarah you are a star! I only did things like Cicero and Catullus - not too helpful for this kind of thing as you say...

Hmmm, could I say something like "The wedding of H and A took place" if not I''ll go with "H was married to A" - bit sexist I know, but all our friends and relations know who is really in charge!

Helen is greek in origin so not sure how that translates , Andy will need to become Andrew I presume.

The date in roman numerals - " XXVI VII MMVIII" (uk style dd/mm/yy) is what I''m having engraved in my wedding ring so I suppose I could do that - is there a better way?

Thank you so much for your help!

 

[sarahthewarrior]

Hi Pandora (or should I say Helen?),

I love how both your name and user name are two of the most famous women in Greek mythology. You must really wreak havoc on the men in your life.

Now for the Latin. Sorry it's taken me a little while to get back to you--I've been busy with school stuff. I still am, but I'm taking a PS break, and hey--this is still Latin!

The Latin idiom for a wedding's taking place is just "to do/perform a wedding." Both of your names are actually Greek in origin, so I had to Latinize them. I apologize for your fiance's name looking so feminine, but it's a first declension noun in Latin. It's kind of amusing when you consider that the name itself means "manly." It's not like anyone else will know anyway--it declines just like Aeneas, in fact. So here are your options for that:

Nuptiae Helenae Andreaeque factae erunt.
Nuptiae Helenae et Andreae factae erunt.

The literal translation of this is "The wedding of Helen and Andrew was performed." Nuptiae and the verb are plural because it's a plural word. Think "nuptials." The only difference between these two options is the form of "and": -que or et. I figure I'd let you go with what you like best. Both are acceptable.

Now, just so you can compare with the more Latin way of saying this:

Helena nupsit Andreae. "Helen was married to Andrew."
Andreas duxit Helenam in matrimonium. "Andrew led Helen as a wife."

As for the date, I would do the same as you're doing with your wedding band. The Roman numerals are correct. I'm afraid you'll just confuse people terribly by saying that you were married seven days before the Kalends of August. They'd probably see August and think you got the date wrong or something.

Since you're talking about the Battle of Hastings, I'm guessing you're going for a more medieval theme, but there is a classical Roman tradition of weddings I'm quite fond of if you were interested in incorporating something into the ceremony. Again, it's probably pretty sexist if you think about it. It basically has to do with taking your future husband's name. When the groom asks the bride her name with their hands joined, she responds, Ubi tu Gaius, ego Gaia--"Where you are Gaius, I am Gaia," therefore taking the feminine form of her husband's name. This is just the tradition--whether your husband's name is Gaius or not. It basically comes to mean, "Wherever you are, I will be, too." Kind of cute. Think of it as the Roman vows.

Hope this helps! If you have any other questions, just be sure to put "Latin" or my name in the title of the thread or something. I'll be sure to read it that way.

 

[Pandora II]

Fantastic - wow, I am in awe of your Latin skills!

I never could get to grips with the grammar. I wonder if they teach dead languages better in the States. I always thought it would be better if it was taught as a spoken language rather than just on paper like we were - and less battles!

I was thinking about the date thing last night and all the kalends and things that make it so complicated. All I can remember is that little rhyme "March, July, October, May the Nones fall on the 7th day"

There will be a number of latin scholars there - all rather old men who it would have been a 3 hour phonecall and lots of

had I asked them for help on this (also don''t dare admit how little latin I know after the $$$ my parents spent on my schoolfees

)

I think out of all of them I rather like "Andreas duxit Helenam in matrimonium" as it looks prettier if you know what I mean, but I will see what FI thinks as well.

Funny that about the Pandora/Helen thing. I have always been fascinated by Greek and Roman myths - my parents read them to me as a small child. I think it also made me an atheist - loved bible stories too, but couldn''t really see the difference. I had an Ancient Greek and Ancient History teacher who was also a vicar who said he thought it was great that the greeks had so many gods, then you could just worship your favourite. He would have gone with Bacchus himself. Personally I was always rather taken with Athena (I liked the owl).

Pandora came about through another online forum where all the varients of Helen were already taken. I then had other forums and kept the same handle as it''s easier than remembering hundreds of different ones! If I ever have a little girl I''d be very tempted to name her Pandora though as I do love the name - and the story.

 

[sarahthewarrior]

Date: 4/29/2007 3:24:44 PM
Author: Pandora II
Fantastic - wow, I am in awe of your Latin skills!

I never could get to grips with the grammar. I wonder if they teach dead languages better in the States. I always thought it would be better if it was taught as a spoken language rather than just on paper like we were - and less battles!

I was thinking about the date thing last night and all the kalends and things that make it so complicated. All I can remember is that little rhyme ''March, July, October, May the Nones fall on the 7th day''

There will be a number of latin scholars there - all rather old men who it would have been a 3 hour phonecall and lots of

had I asked them for help on this (also don''t dare admit how little latin I know after the $$$ my parents spent on my schoolfees

)

I think out of all of them I rather like ''Andreas duxit Helenam in matrimonium'' as it looks prettier if you know what I mean, but I will see what FI thinks as well.

Funny that about the Pandora/Helen thing. I have always been fascinated by Greek and Roman myths - my parents read them to me as a small child. I think it also made me an atheist - loved bible stories too, but couldn''t really see the difference. I had an Ancient Greek and Ancient History teacher who was also a vicar who said he thought it was great that the greeks had so many gods, then you could just worship your favourite. He would have gone with Bacchus himself. Personally I was always rather taken with Athena (I liked the owl).

Pandora came about through another online forum where all the varients of Helen were already taken. I then had other forums and kept the same handle as it''s easier than remembering hundreds of different ones! If I ever have a little girl I''d be very tempted to name her Pandora though as I do love the name - and the story.

I agree--this is my favorite by far as well, which is why I went ahead and gave you all the options despite the sexism. Out of all of them, it is certainly the closest to actual Latin--Cicero or Caesar would have easily said this. It''s not perfect Latin word order, but it''s something I feel your guests will actually be able to read. If you want the more precise word order, it would be "Andreas Helenam in matrimonium duxit," but I don''t think anyone will criticize you for the other version.

As for my Latin skills, thanks! I am madly in love with grammar, so they rather go hand-in-hand. I tend to disagree about better teaching of Latin on this side of the pond--part of me has always wanted to be a British schoolboy. Most of my male British professors have an incredible handle on the language because they''ve been reading it since they were about 5. I''m not sure I would be too keen on learning it in the same way modern languages are taught, though--it''s just immensely complicated, and Greek is even worse (pitch accent, anyone?). I swear people must have just been smarter 2,000 years ago. I''m afraid my dear Latin is losing its luster everywhere--but here''s to keeping dead languages alive!

 

[Pandora II]

Totally agree on keeping languages alive.

I started learning Latin at the age of 7 - fun textbook called Ecci Romani - and Ancient Greek at 9. I went to a very old fashioned all-boys boarding school (7 girls/245 boys) where they still beat things into us (literally). Only doesn''t seem to have worked in my case!

Do they teach Latin in the public school system in the US?

 

[zoebartlett]

Date: 4/29/2007 4:15:08 PM
Author: Pandora II
Totally agree on keeping languages alive.

I started learning Latin at the age of 7 - fun textbook called Ecci Romani - and Ancient Greek at 9. I went to a very old fashioned all-boys boarding school (7 girls/245 boys) where they still beat things into us (literally). Only doesn''t seem to have worked in my case!

Do they teach Latin in the public school system in the US?

Yes, Pandora, they teach Latin the piblic school system, although it''s far more common to take Spanish or French, maybe even German, than it is to take Latin. I took it for three years in high school (early ''90s) and then went on to take it for a semester in college my freshman year. In high school, we also had a fun textbook, but I forget what it was called. The book basically centered around a man named Caecillius (I KNOW I didn''t spell that right -- it sounds like K-eye-kee-lee-us) and his family. We learned all about Pompeii and Mount Vesuvius, etc. I wish I could remember the name because reading this thread is bringing back memories.

I''d be curious to see how many public schools still teach Latin. I loved it in high school but it got ten times harder in college. For some reason, my professor chose to teach us "the real Latin" -- the tough translations and stuff.

 

[sarahthewarrior]

Date: 4/29/2007 4:15:08 PM
Author: Pandora II
Totally agree on keeping languages alive.

I started learning Latin at the age of 7 - fun textbook called Ecci Romani - and Ancient Greek at 9. I went to a very old fashioned all-boys boarding school (7 girls/245 boys) where they still beat things into us (literally). Only doesn't seem to have worked in my case!

Do they teach Latin in the public school system in the US?

Very few public schools teach it here nowadays. My high school only had it because our superintendent believed strongly in offering a variety of languages. Even then, we had to share a teacher with the middle school (my county was very small, with only one school district all on the same street). Many private schools actually require it for graduation--but usually only a year or two, which is basically useless anyway.

The textbook you used, Ecce Romani, is a popular one here as well. I'm guessing the Greek text you used was filled with stories about a guy named Dikaeopolis--I forget the name of the series. Most schools here use Ecce Romani, Wheelock's, or the Cambridge series for teaching Latin. I actually used Jenny's for my first year in eighth grade, then a terrible series called Latin for Americans in high school--as though Americans are so stupid they need their own textbook to learn Latin. For Greek, I used Hansen and Quinn--a textbook designed to learn Greek in three weeks, but you can also take it at a slower pace. I didn't start Greek until college, though. I don't think that's taught in any high school here (at least, not REAL Greek).

I must say, I am incredibly jealous that you were raised as a British schoolboy! Too bad it didn't take too well. But who knows--I may have hated Greek and Latin if they had literally been beaten into me. Out of all the languages I know (English, Latin, Greek, German, and Italian), the dead ones are by far my favorite. I really love German as well, and even though it's not a romance language, its grammar is eerily similar to Greek and Latin.

Wow, can you tell I love talking about language?

 

[Trelala]

Latin is offered in some public high schools here (California), but the trend is to offer more Asian languages. The HS I attended offered German, French, Spanish and Chinese. Ten years later, it offers Chinese, Japanese, French and Spanish. The HS I taught at had problems with dropping enrollment in French class. I recall there was a petition circulating to open a Chinese class...
Other schools in the area also offer Punjabi.
I''ve always wanted to take Latin, maybe after I master Classical Chinese.