How do you feel about The USA Patriot Act?

[Libster]

With all the controversy in Congress regarding the reauthorization of the USA Patriot Act, I wondered how fellow PScopers really feel about this piece of legislation?

http://www.ala.org/ala/washoff/WOissues/civilliberties/theusapatriotact/usapatriotact.htm

 

[AChiOAlumna]

The Patriot Act has been a point of controversy in my profession as any FBI agent can come into my office, take a copy of the client''s file without any authorization (except to claim it under Article 512 of the Patriot Act) and now I''m supposed to keep quiet about it to my client??? And in the meantime, I''m supposed to maintain that nothing happened while working with my client on their most intimate issues? The first rule of therapy is the importance of the therapist/client relationship....and we''re supposed to uphold this relationship while all the time knowing that we''re being deceitful? It puts us in a real bind and many therapists do not like it.

 

[cinnabar]

Date: 12/19/2005 11:09:28 AM
Author: AChiOAlumna
The Patriot Act has been a point of controversy in my profession as any FBI agent can come into my office, take a copy of the client''s file without any authorization (except to claim it under Article 512 of the Patriot Act) and now I''m supposed to keep quiet about it to my client??? And in the meantime, I''m supposed to maintain that nothing happened while working with my client on their most intimate issues? The first rule of therapy is the importance of the therapist/client relationship....and we''re supposed to uphold this relationship while all the time knowing that we''re being deceitful? It puts us in a real bind and many therapists do not like it.

Are there any instances where this has actually happened at your workplace, or that of other therapists you know personally?

I''m offended by the Patriot Act myself, so I''m just playing devil''s advocate here. I wondered whether it was something that''s obnoxious just because it has potential for this sort of problem, but doesn''t really happen in practice; or whether it''s actually causing problems like this regularly.

 

[movie zombie]

the so called patriot act?! i view it with thumbs down: unAmerican, unConstitutional, and an overt movement into facism. j. edgar hoover would have approved, though.

peace, movie zombie

 

[fire&ice]

Date: 12/19/2005 1:02:48 PM
Author: movie zombie
the so called patriot act?! i view it with thumbs down: unAmerican, unConstitutional, and an overt movement into facism. j. edgar hoover would have approved, though.

peace, movie zombie

I tend to agree.

But then, I think "McCarthyism" is THE story of the 20th century. This may be for the 21st.

That said, I have mixed feelings. I don''t think someone who enters this country with the sole purpose of hurting us shouldn''t be granted the same rights as productive citizens. It''s where do you draw the line. How do you keep us safe?

On an interesting note, how many of those professions that can have their records surrenderd would have reported suspicious activity. I''m having a hard time verbalizing this - but - if you witnessed suspicious trading of diamonds of someone who "fits the profile" would you - should you report it? Is this the same as a witch hunt?

What specific information had they gathered in this way that kept us safe? There is something to say that we have not had another attack carried out since 9/11 while other countries have.

 

[AChiOAlumna]

Date: 12/19/2005 1:18:39 PM
Author: fire&ice
On an interesting note, how many of those professions that can have their records surrenderd would have reported suspicious activity. I''m having a hard time verbalizing this - but - if you witnessed suspicious trading of diamonds of someone who ''fits the profile'' would you - should you report it? Is this the same as a witch hunt?

Interestingly enough, if in the midst of a session, a client tells me they are involved in a crime (such as suspicious trading of diamonds) I would HAVE to keep my knowledge confidential. Telling anyone or reporting it to the police would constitute breaking confidentiality and I could lose my license! Now if the crime was the abusing of a child or a dependent adult, then I have to break confidentiality. If the planning of a crime involves imminence and there''s a specific intended victim, then I also have to break confidentiality. So if a terrorist tells me that they''re planning to hijack a plane in 2 days and drive it into the ground, then I must break confidentiality and tell the police and the airline company.

So I am given leeway, but it''s mainly to protect the safety of people...white collar crimes must remain in the grave with me though.

 

[AChiOAlumna]

Date: 12/19/2005 1:00:10 PM
Author: cinnabar
Are there any instances where this has actually happened at your workplace, or that of other therapists you know personally?

I''m offended by the Patriot Act myself, so I''m just playing devil''s advocate here. I wondered whether it was something that''s obnoxious just because it has potential for this sort of problem, but doesn''t really happen in practice; or whether it''s actually causing problems like this regularly.

Cinnabar, I myself don''t know of anyone who''s had to deal with this as a therapist, but it''s been made REAL clear through our Ethics Board as how we are supposed to handle this and it doesn''t sit well with many of the therapists I know....

 

[strmrdr]

Date: 12/19/2005 1:02:48 PM
Author: movie zombie
the so called patriot act?! i view it with thumbs down: unAmerican, unConstitutional, and an overt movement into facism. j. edgar hoover would have approved, though.


peace, movie zombie

You can say that twice.
The sad thing is that it just made legal what they had been doing anyway.
I know some people that run an isp/hosting company.
old way:
FBI agent: shows up and says I want to see your logs for this day.
isp guy: yes sir.

old way2:
FBI agent: shows up and says I want to see your logs for this day.
isp guy: got a warrent?
FBI agent: no but if I have to get one im going to take all the equipment in your building and you wont get it back for months.
isp guys boss: have anything you want.

New way:
FBI agent: I want these records under the patriot act.
isp guy: yes sir *grumble grumble grumble facist pig*
FBI agent: your under arrest
isp guy: what for?
FBI agent: I dont have to tell you.
isp guy: I want a lawyer
FBI agent: terrorists dont get lawyers.

So all that really changed except is the isp guy can go to jail for nothing.

 

[partgypsy]

Good riddance to that piece of legislation. I have a couple friends that are librarians. Under this act you have to provide the FBI a list of books someone has been checking out, and of course not disclose to the person. For one of my friends that is of jewish heritage, the right to monitor ordinary citizens personal behavior without any real reason has a disquieting precedent. Let''s just the the ability to do so can be easily abused for political motives.

 

[fire&ice]

Date: 12/19/2005 4:29:29 PM
Author: part gypsy
Good riddance to that piece of legislation. I have a couple friends that are librarians. Under this act you have to provide the FBI a list of books someone has been checking out, and of course not disclose to the person. For one of my friends that is of jewish heritage, the right to monitor ordinary citizens personal behavior without any real reason has a disquieting precedent. Let''s just the the ability to do so can be easily abused for political motives.

But, on the flip side of this - would the librarian have a moral obligation to society to report someone who is checking out books on bomb making, architectual specs of - say - the Pentagon, "how to throw your own Jihad", etc?

Does anyone know of anyone who has been *asked* for that kind of information? I''m concerned about abuse - but, I don''t think wire taping a suspected AlQ communicating with another suspected AlQ is a bad thing. It''s my understanding that if one gets a warrant or whatever they call it - it''s gives up the surprise advantage.

But, I err on the side of NOT giving up ANY civil liberties.

 

[fire&ice]

Date: 12/19/2005 1:38:53 PM
Author: AChiOAlumna

Date: 12/19/2005 1:18:39 PM
Author: fire&ice
On an interesting note, how many of those professions that can have their records surrenderd would have reported suspicious activity. I''m having a hard time verbalizing this - but - if you witnessed suspicious trading of diamonds of someone who ''fits the profile'' would you - should you report it? Is this the same as a witch hunt?

Interestingly enough, if in the midst of a session, a client tells me they are involved in a crime (such as suspicious trading of diamonds) I would HAVE to keep my knowledge confidential. Telling anyone or reporting it to the police would constitute breaking confidentiality and I could lose my license! Now if the crime was the abusing of a child or a dependent adult, then I have to break confidentiality. If the planning of a crime involves imminence and there''s a specific intended victim, then I also have to break confidentiality. So if a terrorist tells me that they''re planning to hijack a plane in 2 days and drive it into the ground, then I must break confidentiality and tell the police and the airline company.

So I am given leeway, but it''s mainly to protect the safety of people...white collar crimes must remain in the grave with me though.

Interesting. Is that cut and dry? So, upon confession, you could report Michael Jackson for sex abuse; but not say Scott Peterson for murder?

So, what if you found out that the trafficing of diamonds was a way of moving money for funding AlQ? Do you have some wiggle room there? Would you have to surrender your license if you "told". I suppose it can be an interpretation of code of ethics.

It is interesting because many professions have a ulitmate responsibility to the client. And, that''s a good thing.

Also, I wonder if all professions have to report the paid in more than 10k in cash thing?

I suppose I digress.

 

[AChiOAlumna]

Date: 12/19/2005 4:51:36 PM
Author: fire&ice
So, what if you found out that the trafficing of diamonds was a way of moving money for funding AlQ? Do you have some wiggle room there? Would you have to surrender your license if you ''told''. I suppose it can be an interpretation of code of ethics.
It is interesting because many professions have a ulitmate responsibility to the client. And, that''s a good thing.
Also, I wonder if all professions have to report the paid in more than 10k in cash thing?
I suppose I digress.

In my profession, according to the ethical standards and the law, if the issue doesn''t have put the client or another in immediate danger, then I am obligated to maintain confidentiality....plain and simple. There''s no interpretation of the CofE there. It''s very black-and-white. People have lost their license for much less. Trafficking diamonds (regardless of the amount) for A/Q or anyone doesn''t put the immediate threat of danger to a person, so I''m obligated to maintain that confidentiality.

As you said, my responsibility is ultimately to the client, which is why the Patriot Act is so contradictory for me and my profession.

 

[bookworm21]

I don''t follow political threads much, so I''m somewhat uninformed, but from what I''ve heard, I don''t like the Patriot Act. What''s next, an authorization for the government to spy on you continuously? Then arrest you for disagreeing with the current administration''s political views and agendas and accuse you of treason because of it? I''m frankly disturbed by the direction this country is moving in.

Granted, the Patriot Act is to ensure the safety of US citizens, but is it necessary to violate constitutional rights in order to feel safe?

 

[Matata]

We''ve had several attempts by the FBI to gain access to foreign students'' records. And then there''s the Federal Communications Commission''s new requirements that colleges make changes to their computer networks to help facilitate the monitoring of online communications by law enforcement. These changes are a result of the FCC proposing new requirements under the Communications Assistance for Law Enforcement Act (CALEA).

 

[fire&ice]

Date: 12/19/2005 5:06:55 PM
Author: AChiOAlumna

Date: 12/19/2005 4:51:36 PM
Author: fire&ice
So, what if you found out that the trafficing of diamonds was a way of moving money for funding AlQ? Do you have some wiggle room there? Would you have to surrender your license if you ''told''. I suppose it can be an interpretation of code of ethics.
It is interesting because many professions have a ulitmate responsibility to the client. And, that''s a good thing.
Also, I wonder if all professions have to report the paid in more than 10k in cash thing?
I suppose I digress.

In my profession, according to the ethical standards and the law, if the issue doesn''t have put the client or another in immediate danger, then I am obligated to maintain confidentiality....plain and simple. There''s no interpretation of the CofE there. It''s very black-and-white. People have lost their license for much less. Trafficking diamonds (regardless of the amount) for A/Q or anyone doesn''t put the immediate threat of danger to a person, so I''m obligated to maintain that confidentiality.

As you said, my responsibility is ultimately to the client, which is why the Patriot Act is so contradictory for me and my profession.

What exactly can they demand? Do you keep copious notes? Would it be regular course to put into writing a white collar crime commited? Can they ask for what''s in your head? At the very least, I would be more careful of what I would put in the "record" so to speak.

Patriot''s Act or not, I see much of this abuse going on in as a matter of course of business. For example, Doctor''s releasing information to an insurance company. Such an invasive information society we live in. Recently, I had to have a background check run on me for a badge of admission to offices of a public insitution. Though no skeletons in my closet, I felt awful icky. Even this whole "cookie" thing bothers me. I feel like big brother is all around. Maybe I''m paranoid - but I don''t even discuss "sensitive" infomation over a cell phone. Or too much on a cord phone. I remember picking up people''s phone conversations.

The reason I keep harping on the diamond trafficing thing is - a while back - a jeweler was telling us that they can see his records upon demand.

 

[fire&ice]

Date: 12/19/2005 5:21:57 PM
Author: Matata
We''ve had several attempts by the FBI to gain access to foreign students'' records. And then there''s the Federal Communications Commission''s new requirements that colleges make changes to their computer networks to help facilitate the monitoring of online communications by law enforcement. These changes are a result of the FCC proposing new requirements under the Communications Assistance for Law Enforcement Act (CALEA).

What kind of records? You would have to provide a visa of record - correct?

 

[AChiOAlumna]

te:[/b] 12/19/2005 5:24:56 PM
Author: fire&ice
As you said, my responsibility is ultimately to the client, which is why the Patriot Act is so contradictory for me and my profession.

What exactly can they demand? Do you keep copious notes? Would it be regular course to put into writing a white collar crime commited? Can they ask for what''s in your head? At the very least, I would be more careful of what I would put in the ''record'' so to speak.

Patriot''s Act or not, I see much of this abuse going on in as a matter of course of business. For example, Doctor''s releasing information to an insurance company. Such an invasive information society we live in. Recently, I had to have a background check run on me for a badge of admission to offices of a public insitution. Though no skeletons in my closet, I felt awful icky. Even this whole ''cookie'' thing bothers me. I feel like big brother is all around. Maybe I''m paranoid - but I don''t even discuss ''sensitive'' infomation over a cell phone. Or too much on a cord phone. I remember picking up people''s phone conversations.

The reason I keep harping on the diamond trafficing thing is - a while back - a jeweler was telling us that they can see his records upon demand. [/quote]
And that''s the key F&I! The Patriot Act can come in and take full copies of the charts related to the client in question. Granted, most of my notes ARE vague "Client discussed family issues." yada yada....However, in the initial intake and in the client''s own statement for coming to therapy, there are additional notes and sometimes they aren''t as vague. I may not put the details of a white collar crime into a client''s chart, but I may state, "Client discussed internal conflictual issues over past actions." Now the FBI would have those notes on file and could potentially court-order me to testify as to what those actions may be. but if I put less in than that, I would forget over the course of time what we discussed.

Just think, here is a client who is believing that what they tell me is confidential, but in actuality (and luckily this hasn''t happened to me IRL) I''ve had to divulge that information to the FBI under the Patriot Act and the client doesn''t know! I would be feeling as icky as you felt during that background check (maybe more so).

 

[Libster]

The Patriot Act is disturbing to me. No, I don''t want to see another terrorist act on the US, but do we REALLY need this sort of legislation to prevent it?

Your responses are so informative. I never even thought about the possibility of a therapist having to release confidential (or what the patient believes is confidential) medical records to the FBI.

Big Brother has probably been watching much longer than I even could have imagined.

 

[strmrdr]

Every word you type here is being ran thru an FBI computer guaranteed.
This thread is no doubt being flagged for human reading.

Hello mister FBI dude come on out and lets talk diamonds :}

 

[partgypsy]

Oh that''s creepy!

 

[sxn675]

I don''t approve of the Patriot Act at all. I think it''s interesting that many of the provisions were previously rejected for being too heavy-handed. I don''t see this as the same thing at all as physicians releasing information to insurance companies for payment purposes. There have been cases of students who were obtaining books using interlibrary loan for classes getting visits from the FBI. There have been a number of other instances, but since silence is part of the act, we won''t even know the full extent of it.

 

[AGBF]

Date: 12/20/2005 8:49:32 AM
Author: strmrdr
Every word you type here is being ran thru an FBI computer guaranteed.
This thread is no doubt being flagged for human reading.

Your tax dollars at work. What can I say? They miss the 9/11 terrorists but catch the Pricescopers. That sounds about right. Bush is a pathetic dictator tapping our phones instead of catching Osama bin Laden. Yes, I am a true threat. I sold flag pins on eBay and bought thousands of dollars of junk during eBay's Auction for America to help take care of the families of people-especially firefighters and policemen-killed on 9/11. But it is easier to bug my line than to find Osama bin Laden. If I now have the FBI's attention, why don't we hear anything about bin Laden anymore? Never mind. Wrong agency. The FBI is supposed to watch us on the domestic front. Why aren't they watching whether the INS is still sending VISAs to dead terrorists who want to go to flight school as the INS did after 9/11?

The Enraged One

 

[ame]

I think it does NOTHING positive. It ends up being a tool for vindictive and immature jerks to rat out buddies who really might have done nothing wrong, just because they disagree with their beliefs. I don''t like that the government is so invasive and so anti-privacy and giving them free reign, LEGALLY, atrocious.

This country is NOT FREE. And this just proves it.

 

[strmrdr]

Date: 12/31/2005 12:06:45 AM
Author: ame
I think it does NOTHING positive. It ends up being a tool for vindictive and immature jerks to rat out buddies who really might have done nothing wrong, just because they disagree with their beliefs. I don't like that the government is so invasive and so anti-privacy and giving them free reign, LEGALLY, atrocious.


This country is NOT FREE. And this just proves it.

Gota say i agree.

Sad thing is most folks are so used to being told what to do that they wouldnt know what to do in a truly free society.