How many H,I,J,K diamonds are brown, and do you care?

[YoungPapa]

Hi folks,

As I've mentioned recently in other threads, the diamond videos we introduced two weeks ago have really been an eye-opener for us. Even as diamond professionals, the library has had a few surprises that we weren't expecting. One of those was variation in tint in the near colorless/faint color categories. While we generally think of diamond color moving along a line from completely white to faint yellow, there is definitely some subset of diamonds that vary from white to faint brown. While I've always known about these and heard them referred to as TLB's (top light brown) and TTLB's (top top light brown), I'm surprised how many we've found.

For example, take a look at these videos and see if you can pick-up the brown undertones:

H color
http://www.jamesallen.com/#!/loose-diamonds/Round-cut/0.90-carat-H-color-SI1-clarity-Very-Good-cut-sku-180573

I color
http://www.jamesallen.com/#!/loose-diamonds/Princess-cut/1.01-carat-I-color-SI1-clarity-sku-166520
http://www.jamesallen.com/#!/loose-diamonds/Cushion-cut/2.20-carat-I-color-VS2-clarity-sku-172687

J color
http://www.jamesallen.com/#!/loose-diamonds/Cushion-cut/1.03-carat-J-color-VS2-clarity-sku-173438

K color
http://www.jamesallen.com/#!/loose-diamonds/Round-cut/0.71-carat-K-color-VS1-clarity-Excellent-cut-sku-40360
http://www.jamesallen.com/#!/loose-diamonds/Round-cut/0.72-carat-K-color-VS1-clarity-Excellent-cut-sku-156044
http://www.jamesallen.com/#!/loose-diamonds/Emerald-cut/1.26-carat-K-color-VS1-clarity-sku-41056
http://www.jamesallen.com/#!/loose-diamonds/Pear-cut/0.90-carat-K-color-VS1-clarity-sku-166797

Personally, I'm not a fan of brown diamonds (although I find the pear shape fascinating and have nicknamed it 'The Zebra'), but what do consumers think? According to an online article from JCK Nov 2012, there is at least one person in the trade calling for GIA to grade tint on the reports:

http://www.jckonline.com/blogs/cutting-remarks/2012/11/28/should-diamond-grading-reports-include-tint

Thoughts?

 

[diamondseeker2006]

Jim, first of all, I would like to congratulate you on the new site! The diamond videos are absolutely outstanding!!!

I am a little color sensitive and stick with G-H for my own stones, but I will tell you that I think I prefer the brown in an ideal cut round as opposed to yellow. I am not fond of yellow in a J color round. But I think I maybe could do it with the brown!

I do not like seeing any tint, yellow or brown, in other shapes, really. Maybe antique cushions because of the large facets would be my one exception. And of course, I would love a fancy light yellow! But tint doesn't work in stones like pears since the facet pattern concentrates color in different areas rather than being disbursed equally throughout the stone.

I LOVE the videos and have already done some color comparison between GIA and AGS stones, too!

 

[04diamond<3]

I have noticed this too in the diamonds that have been posted on your site. I wouldn't want something that dark as a center stone on my ering, but I wouldn't mind it for a pendant or matching earrings or even a rhr...I have to say though, I love love love seeing the videos!!! I am beyond impressed and love just watching the stones go around and seeing the stone from all angles. It's perfect!

 

[Fly Girl]

These videos are great, and yes, it is easy to pick up the brown undertones. I don't have any preference as to whether it is brown or yellow, since I prefer E and F colored diamonds! I am wondering if you have spotted any with silver or gray undertones yet? A silver diamond might be fun to own.

I was checking out some SI1s on the video a few days ago, and I think you are very brave to put these up, since it makes it a lot easier to see the inclusions going around and around. I think the questions about a stone being eye-clean will only increase, since the inclusions are so easy to see in this blown up view.

Wonderful improvement to the web site, and best wishes for a successful 2013.

 

[ame]

I do care about brown yes. In a lower color stone, for me, it would be possibly a positive, though as I might be looking for the warmth that it brings. In anything J or above, I would NOT be ok with it.

 

[SMC]

I like the browns too but I wish that there was a way to exclude them from my search when I'm not specifically looking for brown undertones. I think these brown undertones might look nice in rose gold settings.

 

[yssie]

Thoughts?

Oh, many!

Personally, I can't say I particularly care whether a stone is a yellow/brown H - or rather, I suppose I would if all other characteristics made it impossible to choose between two stones - but the likelihood of running into that dilemma as an end-consumer is low! It is, of course, a much bigger consideration when you're trying to stock an inventory...

I just read the blog entry. On the one hand I completely understand the issues created by the lack of any authority willing to assign the blessed descriptions to details that are pertinent to value. But on the other... aren't we sort-of putting lipstick on a pig at this point?

The fact that colour grading is still done by eye is a disgrace to the industry, frankly. It's still "he said she said and I agreed", and the outcome is entirely dependent on people's opinions - those sorts of judgments are inherently questionable and inconsistent. The labs themselves acknowledge this and offer regrading services, and a tolerance of one grade is considered "acceptable variation" - but of course getting that stone an H on the report will yield more than if it says 'I'! And that's ignoring similar issues w/ grading clarity, fluor... introducing yet another colour variable to be judged with the same questionable consistency seems like an absolutely terrible idea - I can see the thread titles now: "GIA saiys Brown J and AGS says Yellow I, which do I believe?!" or perhaps "Help!! New report called it a brown!!!!!!"

With the way things currently work I don't think specifying tint on the report solves anything - it'd be just like with FCDs: having GIA state that it's a fancy intense yellow is a fantastic start but you still really need to see the thing to price it properly. Once colour grades are assigned by colorimeters which are calibrated by and function according to some specified standards, and once discussions of error/variance/bias don't include the word Human, then assigning sub-species based on ranges of absorption wavelengths makes a whole lot more sense. In my opinion.


ETA don't much like the zebra pear, Jim

 

[Karl_K]

I wondered where all the tlb and ttlb diamonds went.
Now I know the labs have let them creep into the standard grading.
They were called tlb and ttlb for a reason, they traded at reduced prices and were used in lower priced jewelery.
Are they being discounted today or the same price as any other tint?

 

[yssie]

I wondered where all the tlb and ttlb diamonds went.
Now I know the labs have let them creep into the standard grading.
They were called tlb and ttlb for a reason, they traded at reduced prices and were used in lower priced jewelery.
Are they being discounted today or the same price as any other tint?

And Ds w/ fluor were once called blue white and sold at premiums until the FTC called off the party.
Historical trends don't - shouldn't - necessarily determine how value is assigned today.

 

[Paul-Antwerp]

Interesting topic, James.

In this, it is probably good to know that HRD has a different policy of colour-grading in the brownish tint than the American labs. At HRD, if a stone has an I-color in the brownish tint, the notation will be 'I eq', indicating that the tint is equivalent to I, but brownish and not yellowish.

I know that American labs do not make that distinction, but in my limited experience with brownish tinted stones, I have the impression that they tend to get a color-grade lower than their actual tint, sometimes two. I defer however to people with more experience.

In any case, the trade in general devalues diamonds with brownish tint. That does not mean that they are less attractive or anything, it is just a tradition in the trade. I personally like the 'steelish' look that sometimes goes together with a brownish tint, but it is very hard to generalize.

As for Top-Light-Browns, like Jim mentioned, that is actually a term coming from melee-sorting. If you get a parcel with thousands of melees, the tint really becomes apparent, and if these were mixed into a parcel of whitish goods, it would greatly reduce the attraction of the parcel. In single stones of bigger size, I wonder even where the 'grade' of TLB actually starts. I am sure that many dealers will quickly call it TLB when buying, not mentioning it in any way when selling.

Live long

 

[purplesparklies]

I have a top light brown L with strong blue fluorescence and it's beautiful! I don't like the Ls with yellow tones but my eyes don't notice the brown. I'm glad they are looked at as less desirable. Mine was a great deal! [THUMBS UP SIGN]

 

[yennyfire]

Thank you for sharing the videos. It is fairly easy to see the brown undertones and I agree with the other folks who said that they prefer brown to yellow (unless we are talking about a fancy yellow). Honestly, I prefer fairly white stones (G/H is my sweet spot, though I have an oec that is somewhere around I/J that I don't see much color in, even compared to my GIA "E"). The question of caring about brown is relative...if it comes down to selecting a stone that has a slight brown undertone, but is well cut versus a white G color stone that is poorly cut, then to me, there is no choice....so it's all relative (for me).

Great job on the updated website and best wishes for a fantastic year!

 

[Niel]

I strongly prefer the k range with the brown undertones. I was surprised to see that as well on your new site. But to be honest I feel they are visually more appealing than light yellow or faint yellow

 

[Modified Brilliant]

Over the past few years, the "slightly brownish" tones that I've seen have been mostly in the I-J range in GIA Diamond Grading Reports.

My personal experience is that I have seen more of these tinted stones now than in the previous two decades of my career. My first reaction was, "Am I seeing things or does this "I" color diamond have a brownish cast?" And "Why was it graded "I color" ?

I also feel that a trained eye would most likely see it, but a non trained eye might not. A PS consumer probably would see it.

Then there is subjectivity...and what level of tint one sees. I'm not comfortable with the "brownish tint" in the diamond categories mentioned by Jim in his original post, but it is a new challenge for all of us.

Possibly an asterisk on the report could note that: "this diamond may have a very slightly brownish tint that may not affect the actual predominant color grade of the diamond to any extent."

 

[Enerchi]

JAS - I LOVE those browns! (but I confess to being weird in what I like in diamonds !) and that pear.... yum! While I do appreciate and am always awed by a DEF colourless diamond, generally I prefer warmth in diamonds and lean towards the J, K, L or lower range. So seeing brown, those are right up my alley!

I have nothing 'deep' to add other than to tell you how much I am enjoying your new revamped site and the 360 feature for your diamonds- THANK YOU! Great marketing feature and I"m loving viewing all the diamonds on your site!

 

[mdmc]

I am not an expert so not sure I can reply to your question but..............I received my ring from JA today. Loved that I could see it on video. It is a J color and I must say it faces up very white. I also wanted to let you know of the excellent customer service I received especially from Jenny and Garrett. Thanks so much.

 

[wintotty]

I just received AVR K SI1 with brownish tint.....and it faces up really white! Thank you Paul for stating some brownish tinted stoned can look "steel-ish" color, because that's how my AVR looks and I thought I was going crazy seeing something strange.

 

[yssie]

Paul, I always get a bit of that bull in a china shop feeling after reading your posts. You and John Pollard have an enviable talent for conveying your opinion without distancing yourself from any one point of view... perhaps I should delete and repost in the hopes that a few intervening posts might dull the contrast

Just joking... mostly.

 

[TC1987]

Interesting topic, James.

... I am sure that many dealers will quickly call it TLB when buying, not mentioning it in any way when selling.

Live long

ROTFL

I bought a diamond at a pawn shop and it was supposed to be an H. It faces up very white and bright. But when I got it home and set it upside down on a piece of white paper, I was horrified to see BROWN! No doubt about it. But when I flipped it face-up again, it still looks white. So I kept it. The price was right, and nobody suspects a thing.

 

[Karl_K]

Appearance wise I don't really care yellow or brown as long as the diamond is priced right.
Which is why I asked if they were trading at a discount these days.
They used to be discounted and I am curious if that is still the case.

 

[echomomm]

Down to an I, I would prefer brown over yellow. I've seen too many stones that throw yellow at certain angles and I can see it immediately. Perhaps I am sensitive to it because it is not my preference. But with browns, at those same angles many of the diamonds just appear shadowed slightly, or just a tad darker. Depending on the stone and its light play to begin with, that isn't necessarily as unsatisfactory to me as yellow. But I do agree that it would be nice to be able to choose diamonds like pearls, according to tone.

 

[Karl_K]

Down to an I, I would prefer brown over yellow. I've seen too many stones that throw yellow at certain angles and I can see it immediately. Perhaps I am sensitive to it because it is not my preference. But with browns, at those same angles many of the diamonds just appear shadowed slightly, or just a tad darker. Depending on the stone and its light play to begin with, that isn't necessarily as unsatisfactory to me as yellow. But I do agree that it would be nice to be able to choose diamonds like pearls, according to tone.

I find the same thing the off angle color zones with a yellow tone look yellow with a brown tone they look like a shadow or darker zone.
I do like brown diamonds in the s-t range a lot when well cut.

 

[yssie]

Karl - fair enough!
I have a pair of OECs one colour grade apart, one is a yellow and the other is a brown. I *can* tell which is which, the yellower is visibly more vividly tinted the side, but I prefer the one with clearer faceting (the yellow) and I can't separate that out. I'd love to have two otherwise identical brown/yellow Is or Js to play with for a bit see if I can find this darkness you and echo talk about.



Also reposting Tom Gelb's answers to some of the questions I had last year about colour grading D-Z for any of the other non-pros who find all of this very confusing!

Hello Yssie,

I believe I can shed a little more light here. I worked in fancy colors at the GIA for a number of years. Please note the responses in red below. If you have anymore questions please let me know.

All the best,

Tom

No, I'm definitely not talking about fluor - only the body colour of the stone. So am I understanding correctly (w/ reference to GIA's grading only):

1. GIA will call a stone with *yellow* body colour of certain strength/saturation (let's call this "X") a K. Correct
2. GIA will call a stone with *brown* body colour of certain strength/saturation >= "X" a K, and will note that colour is due to brown on the report. From K-M Faint brown, N-R Very Light Brown, S-Z Light Brown
3. GIA will call a stone with *yellow* body colour of strenght/saturation < "X" an E-J. Correct
4. GIA will call a stone with *brown* body colour of strength/saturation < "X" an E-J, but you are unsure if there will be a brown notation. No brown noted, except on internal GIA documents
5. If the stone is cut from *pink* rough, it is either a D (completely colourless) or a Faint, Very Light, Light, Fancy, Fancy Intense, Fancy Vivid, Fancy Deep. There is no possibility of acquiring a GIA G with an inkling of *pink*. Same with *blue*. If a diamond is graded D-F it will get only a letter grade regardless of the underlying tint. Remember D-F is termed "colorless" so although there may be something there it would be quite strange for a diamond to be called both colorless and blue. If a diamond has a color other than yellow brown or gray and has an equivalent color grade of G or below the diamond would then be graded in the fancy color grading scale starting with Faint.
7. This quote from one of the threads linked above is also wrong: "grey diamonds are graded d-j. if there is more color than a j, it's fancy grey". Gray diamond are a strange exception and treated differently. The post is correct in that a diamond with a gray undertone would be graded on the D-Z color scale until it reached K color. At that point the diamond wold be graded on the GIA fancy color grading system starting with Faint Gray.

And here's a really interesting post by David of DBL:

I believe this is all much less of an issue today- for the following reason- light browns, when irradiated, turn blue.
Therefore, a lot of this material never really reaches the market in it''s natural color state.

Like Yoram, I''ve also seen very high color stones that had a tinge of brown- but far less common today, as compared to before 2000.

Back in the early ''80s, I was sorting, grading and filling orders for Fabrikant, light browns were a hot item.
TTLB ( Top Top Light Brown, also called "first shade") was equivalent to I-J color. TLB was more like K-L.
I don''t see goods like this in the market today- a shame because they were priced less than colorless, but really faced up beautifully.

Occasionally we''ve seen light browns.
Below is the GIA report for an L color, light brown.

Of course it''s based on how the stone looks, but I''d say in the current market, a nice looking stone in the K-L-M range that shows brown may be priced at par with a more traditional light cape- or even higher, as sometimes the light brown makes the stone look a bit pink.

The stone corresponding to that report

Okay, done editing now!

 

[diamondseeker2006]

We are a funny bunch here. We love fluorescence when the majority of jewelers outside PS seem to have a prejudice against it, and many on this thread prefer a brown tint over yellow!

 

[Christina...]

I'm too prefer brown to yellow, I think that there is something more appealing to their color and agree with echomomm that they appear less tinted as opposed to shadowed or contrasted.

 

[diamonds-are-friends]

based on your experience in the diamond industry, could you give a rough estimate of stones with brown tints? Would be interested to hear how the other trade people come up with some figures on other tints like green too.

 

[milton333]

I far, far prefer a slight brown tint over a slight yellow tint. When people talk about the "romance" of lower-colored diamonds, I can see that with faint brown (sort of an ivory, aged, parchment color), but faint yellow tint just looks, well, yellowish to me. There's such a stigma attached to the yellow tint, maybe?

 

[Dancing Fire]

As for Top-Light-Browns, like Jim mentioned, that is actually a term coming from melee-sorting. If you get a parcel with thousands of melees, the tint really becomes apparent, and if these were mixed into a parcel of whitish goods, it would greatly reduce the attraction of the parcel. In single stones of bigger size, I wonder even where the 'grade' of TLB actually starts. I am sure that many dealers will quickly call it TLB when buying, not mentioning it in any way when selling.

Live long

the seller can double their asking price just by adding the word "fancy" in front of TLB...

 

[Roxy]

I prefer D-F but for lower colors I think that brown tint is more palatable than yellow. I really appreciate this video tool, especially for determining whether I can live with the inclusions or not. I'm willing to compromise clarity for color, so I've found these videos to be extremely helpful in that regard!

 

[CharmyPoo]

I do love your new site! The videos are great.

Don't like the brown .. this actually reminds me of a thread from a few years ago. JbEG looked at two diamonds (AVCs I believe) for a buyer and one had a brownish tint.