How much does re-cutting cost?

[raddygast]

Ok, I may have a stone that can benefit from re-cutting. It seems a bit dark in tone, but I'm thinking that's just the cut, because where there is significant light return the stone is fairly bright. It's just that there's a lot of extinction.

The stone is also shallow, so I don't know if that invalidates re-cutting.

Anyway, what are the basic ball-park figures for recutting a 2ct stone, say spinel or corundum? Are we talking hundreds upon hundreds of dollars, or what? I would be interested in getting Richard Homer to do it, but I'm not the biggest fan of the concave look. Does he do more traditional re-facetting? And does anyone have any recommendations for other cutters?

I would love it if someone could suggest a lapidary/cutter in Canada. That would save me an enormous amount of hassle, but it's probably too much to ask.

 

[Richard M.]

Without seeing an image or even knowing the stone''s shape it''s hard to advise you. If it''s shallow, chances are the pavilion angles are too low to allow proper recutting without losing quite a bit of weight and "face" size. Costs vary but in general a recut shouldn''t be more than $100-$150 at most.

Maybe a lapidary club could recommend someone. I can give you contact info for clubs in Toronto, Ottowa and Kingston if one is near you. I also know of several large-scale cutting firms that might assist you. PM me if I can be of help.

Richard M.

 

[valeria101]

Hm... there is a problem you mention indirectly: the stone looks dark, but it is shallower than desired, right ? These two mean to me that the material itself is dark, so recuting cannot improve all that much.

Is the stone you are talking about this flat bit:

(10.6-9.2-3.8mm, 3.88cts, 50% window, est. color R4/4)

 

[Colored Gemstone Nut]

Date: 11/22/2004 7:28:41 PM
Author:raddygast
Ok, I may have a stone that can benefit from re-cutting. It seems a bit dark in tone, but I''m thinking that''s just the cut, because where there is significant light return the stone is fairly bright. It''s just that there''s a lot of extinction.

The stone is also shallow, so I don''t know if that invalidates re-cutting.

Anyway, what are the basic ball-park figures for recutting a 2ct stone, say spinel or corundum? Are we talking hundreds upon hundreds of dollars, or what? I would be interested in getting Richard Homer to do it, but I''m not the biggest fan of the concave look. Does he do more traditional re-facetting? And does anyone have any recommendations for other cutters?

I would love it if someone could suggest a lapidary/cutter in Canada. That would save me an enormous amount of hassle, but it''s probably too much to ask.

Hi Raddy: I know Richard specializes in concave faceting, but I''m sure he is well versed in traditional cutting styles also/ Richard would best answer this question and he does answer emails promptly.

Richard M. has great advice also. I think more shallow stones would benefit the most from concave faceting. The saturation and intensity of a gems color must also be evaluated compared to the current proportions and inclusions which might be present.

For instance some sapphires have have that really dark or inky appearance. Tone, saturation and modifying colors all come into play in the quality of a particular stone.

Tone is one of the more important considerations. If a stone is too dark it would less likely benefit from Homer''s cutting because the light will not be able to get through the stone in order to return the affects of the cutting back to the viewer. Concave faceting doesn''t seem to show up as well in the very dark toned stones and better in medium toned gems. If the stone is already a little shallow it could benefit from re-cutting.

Do you have a picture of your stone?

 

[raddygast]

I''m really not sure how dark the material is. Perhaps it is dark, but it really doesn''t feel all that garnety to me. It is actually quite an intense red in flashes around the crown/girdle. It''s just that it doesn''t return a lot of the light and I think it''s because of the cut. For example when viewed from the backside (face down on the table) the material looks quite red and quite saturated and not very high in tone. It''s just through the table that it looks darker.

I will post some pics here if I can.

 

[raddygast]

1

 

[raddygast]

2

 

[raddygast]

depth

 

[raddygast]

Reverse angle.

Really, the pictures do not do it justice. I feel it is much brighter in person, but suffers from a huge mess of extinction viewed face-up. (not to mention a window) Also it is quite symmetrical to my eye -- the last pic is taken from an angle that makes it look a bit wonky. But within the realm of "native cuts" this one is pleasing to me in its shape and symmetry (but obviously not in the main purpose of a cut, which is to return light and maximize color).

 

[widget]

Pretty!

Can''t wait to hear the expert''s opinions on re-cutting it. What is it? Spinel?


widget

 

[Colored Gemstone Nut]

Date: 11/23/2004 8:25:42 AM
Author: raddygast
Reverse angle.

Really, the pictures do not do it justice. I feel it is much brighter in person, but suffers from a huge mess of extinction viewed face-up. (not to mention a window) Also it is quite symmetrical to my eye -- the last pic is taken from an angle that makes it look a bit wonky. But within the realm of 'native cuts' this one is pleasing to me in its shape and symmetry (but obviously not in the main purpose of a cut, which is to return light and maximize color).

Hey Raddy:

For any stone the brilliance is the percentage of the light that penetrates into a stone that is reflected to the eye. A cutter will work to maximize the beauty of the stone.Re-cutting would in affect improve the brilliance , the color of the stone,and will improve clarity )Concave faceting does an excellent job of masking inclusions) Traditional re-faceting might free the stone from surface inclusions which could disturb light travel whithin the a gem

The brilliance is the percentage of light entering the stone that comes back to the eye. Your stone suufers from a window (area in the center of the stone which light goes through the stone) and a little extinction (areas in which the light from the top goes through and is not returned back to your eye..


Brilliance can also be described as internal luster and can be a significant contributor to a gems beauty and appeal. Brilliancy also tells us much about a gems cut as well as how internal characteristic’s may be diffusing light transmitted through the crystal and can provide a look into the gems tone and saturation.

When you rock your gem back and forth you might observe flashes of brilliancy trading places with similar areas of extinction (areas with no flash). In grading a mental estimation is taken of the total area of brilliance & extinction as a percentage.Re- cutting plays a big factor in how light is also viewed through the crown and can improve brillance dramatically based on the level of cutting. A good cutter will try to maximize all the attributes which give a gem it’s beauty.

Homer charges a premium. I would assess how much you purchased your stone for vs. the re-cutting fee and the increase in value it would have after re-cutting in making your decision. These are all issues you can discuss with a cutter..

 

[raddygast]

Yes, it''s red spinel. RO/OR 7/4, apparently. And Mr. Homer believes the stone is a lost cause -- the pavilion is WAY too shallow to do much without seriously compromising the girdle dimensions. It might still be worth it, but probably not. Good thing I haven''t paid for it yet!

 

[Colored Gemstone Nut]

Glad you got a hold of Richard and glad he told you what you needed to hear..

 

[Michael_E]

raddygast,
Even though that stone may be a lost cause for concave faceting it is not a lost cause for a standard re-cut. You will most likely end up with a 1 to 1.20 carat stone, but the finished stone may still be worth doing this if the initial cost is low enough. With the stone that you''ve shown the facets adjacent to the girdle are too steep and the facets leading to the culet are too shallow. You could probably end up with a stone that is 10% narrower and 20% shorter for a fat little oval that would be very bright red with a hint of orange. I think that what you are seeing as extinction is actually most of the light "leaking" out through the pavilion in the windowed area of that stone. If you''ve still got that stone, try shining a penlight directly through the table in a darkened room onto a piece of white paper. I''d bet that you''d see a neat red halo under the stone.
Although I like the look of concave facets in light to medium saturated stones that have adequate size, in dark colored stones the dispersive nature of the curved facets would tend to make the stones look even darker. This is because the light that enters the stone is spread out by the pavilion facets with only a thin line of reflected light taking a direct path out of the stone to your eye. All of the other directions that the light can take require it to travel farther through the stone to reach your eye. If the stone is dark, it will just suck up all of those other rays.
As to your question about re-cutting costs. Well it all depends on the size of the stone , the material that it''s made of and what you want the final shape and size to be when finished. A small spinel like you''ve shown could cost under $100 whereas a really high end sapphire might cost three times that. Kind of a muddy answer, but it varies with each stone. I hope that helps a bit.

 

[raddygast]

Michael_E, I''ve sent you a PM reply on this site. Hope you get it.

 

[snjohri]

I see no reason why this stone can not benefit from re cutting concave facets on the pavillion alone. Its bound to reduce in size a little but the brilliance will be mcuh better. I can do it for you if you are interested.

 

[spinel]

Raddygast: There is a professional cutter nearby your home. His name is Chorlun Petchsy at 55 Queen Street, suite 1212. His phone number is 416-368-8505. Maybe you should show him the stone and discuss. Never know it could save you some money. I hope this will help.

Next time when I find a really really fine red spinel which sparkles accross a crowded room I will name it raddygast spinel. Agrees everyone?

 

[MJO]

Date: 11/30/2004 1:18:17 AM
Author: Michael_E
raddygast,
Even though that stone may be a lost cause for concave faceting it is not a lost cause for a standard re-cut. You will most likely end up with a 1 to 1.20 carat stone, but the finished stone may still be worth doing this if the initial cost is low enough. With the stone that you''ve shown the facets adjacent to the girdle are too steep and the facets leading to the culet are too shallow. You could probably end up with a stone that is 10% narrower and 20% shorter for a fat little oval that would be very bright red with a hint of orange. I think that what you are seeing as extinction is actually most of the light ''leaking'' out through the pavilion in the windowed area of that stone. If you''ve still got that stone, try shining a penlight directly through the table in a darkened room onto a piece of white paper. I''d bet that you''d see a neat red halo under the stone.
Although I like the look of concave facets in light to medium saturated stones that have adequate size, in dark colored stones the dispersive nature of the curved facets would tend to make the stones look even darker. This is because the light that enters the stone is spread out by the pavilion facets with only a thin line of reflected light taking a direct path out of the stone to your eye. All of the other directions that the light can take require it to travel farther through the stone to reach your eye. If the stone is dark, it will just suck up all of those other rays.
As to your question about re-cutting costs. Well it all depends on the size of the stone , the material that it''s made of and what you want the final shape and size to be when finished. A small spinel like you''ve shown could cost under $100 whereas a really high end sapphire might cost three times that. Kind of a muddy answer, but it varies with each stone. I hope that helps a bit.

Hello Michael M.,

Very interesting about the concave cut darkening the appearance of the stone. I have an 11ct spinel that looks the same as this one and was told by Richard H. that it was too dark. It looks very nice to me but also like this one the stone is shallow but the color is great but a little dark. I bought it a few years ago and paid way too much for it but it is an 11ct Burma spinel.