I love concrete criticism on stones

[deorwine]

Inspired by both my thread on spinels and https://www.pricescope.com/forum/co...o-modifier-of-any-kind-please-t185912-60.html:

I would just like to say that I really appreciate the knowledge and honesty of the posters here. If I post a stone and Chrono points out that it has an orange modifier (sorry, Chrono, just picking on you specifically because this just happened ) -- I am actually really grateful because it helps me learn a) what the "desired" colors are (even if I don't find the "top color" desirable myself! perhaps particularly in that case!) and therefore how the price should be modified, b) how much to trust my eye (in this case, I had also noticed the orange modifier in the lighting conditions that picture was taken in), and c) it often leads to interesting discussions, like about how spinels shift a lot in different lighting. And as a bonus she was very gracious about giving her opinion and some nice words about the stone. Thanks Chrono! As for me, concrete criticism, both positive and negative, is always welcome!

Obviously no one likes to hear that she's overpaid for a stone -- and I've definitely overpaid for lots of stones, and been told it once or twice (though I can't find the examples now). But even though I may not have liked hearing it at the time, I did appreciate it because it helped me not overpay next time.

...Now, I'd probably feel differently if it were my engagement ring stone or something, but I've noticed that pretty much everyone is positive when people post their engagement rings And I think that's great too!

 

[chrono]

Deowine,
I am glad that you did not take offense at my comments. It was not made with the intention to pick your stone apart. It was merely my observation on the colour, then I followed it up with my heart-felt comments (on both preference and pricing). It warms my heart even more that you understood my true intent which is to help you and other readers be able to "see" colour better, decide if pricing is in line with it, and enjoy your gems more.

Rest assured, I have purchased crappy and overpriced gems in the past as well.

 

[deorwine]

Chrono, I absolutely did not think you were trying to pick apart the stone in any kind of negative way (as opposed to picking it apart in the sense of analyzing, which I really enjoy). I really appreciate the time and effort you take to educate people on color and all sorts of stone-related topics, and after what happened in the red thread I just wanted to reiterate that there are many of us who really love that and come to CS for that. (I would have posted this in the red thread but by the time I got there, it had moved on to talking about who is or isn't in the trade, and I figured, why re-derail it even more than necessary? )

 

[minousbijoux]

deorwine: thanks for your post. It is exactly why I love PS. Posting stones, whether they were mine or a vendors, and hearing what I would call constructive criticism/feedback has helped me to learn so much. If I have ever gotten a gemstone bargain - and honestly, don't know that I have - it is largely due to what I've learned in this forum.

 

[LD]

Deorwine - it's nice to know that "we" sometimes get it right (and I'm talking about all the regulars on here). Thank you.

Your comments are the reasons why I continue to post BUT I think that unfortunately you're in the minority with your quest to learn and not be "ooooooh"ed and "aaaaaaah"ed at!

Oh and by the way, the "club" of us who have bought crap/overpaid gemstones is bigger than you think! I'll introduce you to my expensive fish gravel one day

 

[Upgradable]

I have intentionally stayed away from the other thread talking about this topic. I happen to hold to the belief that if I were not part of the initial conversation, I should stay out of the resultant discussion. But I feel it now appropriate to chime in.

I joined PS to find the perfect diamond upgrade for my engagement ring. For several years, those diamond fourms (RT and SMTR) were the only places I frequented and posted. But a girl can only have so many diamonds. I found that to be blasphemy over there, so I tip toed over the the Wild West of Colored Stones.

I quickly found this forum to be a 180 degree difference from the diamond forums. There were less organized threads on how to find a good CS, and it took me a while to figure out why; there isn't a linear comparison from bad -> acceptable -> good -> great as there is for diamonds. But I did find a strong base of posters who were willing to help a newbie figure out what was a desirable stone.

The difference here though is what can be interpreted as a kind of bluntness in advice. There is much less chance of posters promoting specific alternative or posting links to other options. Questions are certainly answered, but there is very little hand holding over here. Knowledgeable aficionados tend to be a little reserved until they believe a seeker is really interested in learning how to find a good specimen for him/herself.

Okay, why did I post all this rambling? I have no idea.

Except to say that CS is a different bird than other forums at PS; as different as colored stones are to diamonds.

People who make the decision to post here, and who find knowledge and help, a need to be personally willing to accept that they need to be willing to be open and learn for him/herself. There is little back patting or hand holding going on here. Just honest, respected appreciation of those who are serious about their personal search.

CS is by far and away my favorite forum on Pricescope!!! I appreciate the knowledge I have gained here, and the respect I have developed for the keen eyed prosumers. And I would be disappointed if this devolved into a place whose major purpose is to validate stone choices made by the person unwilling to accept the knowledge offered here.


It ain't broke, so don't try to fix it!

 

[kenny]

I'm also astonished at the depth of knowledge here and I salute the experts on not just oohing and aahing.
Colored stones are orders of magnitudes more complex than diamonds (mysterious to me actually).
Shopping well is like wandering through a minefield, which scares me away.
The expertise here and the willingness to tell the whole truth and not just say nice things is admirable.

 

[indigoblue]

I started my PS experience with the diamond people. It was so much fun watching them help frantic newbies who were on a short deadline looking for the perfect diamond ering. I learned a lot.

Then one day I clicked on the Colored Stone forum out of curiosity, and like Dorothy in The Wizard of Oz, I entered a technicolor world. But unlike Dorothy, I don't want to go back.

I too love the honest, objective criticism that the regulars are willing to give to us newbies and to each other. I have also noticed that everyone is always complimentary whenever anyone proudly posts pictures of their new jewelry. If someone asks for an opinion, you give it. If someone is ecstatic about their new acquisition, you ooh and aah appropriately as you make allowances for personal preferences.

I am still on a quest to find a nice 3 carat sapphire. All of you helped me when I bought and returned one last month. It was a great learning experience for me. Someone suggested that I wait until after Tucson, so maybe the perfect stone will be available soon. I'm still looking. You'll be the first to know about it.

 

[Upgradable]

You've touched on an interesting point, indigo.

Those who "Need a sapphire ring by next week!" don't fare well here.

 

[LD]

You've touched on an interesting point, indigo.

Those who "Need a sapphire ring by next week!" don't fare well here.

I think people just don't understand how unrealistic it is. The posters that drive me round the bend are ones that do no homework and expect us to do all the legwork. You'll find me notably absent from those threads.

One of my FAVOURITE newbies at the moment is James_K (colourblind and poor eyesight help me find a sapphire). That guy is lovely. He's open to ideas, willing to try things and listens. He's going to end up with beautiful sapphire and I don't think anybody is going to give up helping him.

 

[minousbijoux]

You've touched on an interesting point, indigo.

Those who "Need a sapphire ring by next week!" don't fare well here.

I think people just don't understand how unrealistic it is. The posters that drive me round the bend are ones that do no homework and expect us to do all the legwork. You'll find me notably absent from those threads.

One of my FAVOURITE newbies at the moment is James_K (colourblind and poor eyesight help me find a sapphire). That guy is lovely. He's open to ideas, willing to try things and listens. He's going to end up with beautiful sapphire and I don't think anybody is going to give up helping him.

Could not agree more. Another one is forcryingoutloud, whose fiance bought the sapphire ring off of ebay and she wanted help with information. Amazing attitude - one of those people who will make the best of every situation she encounters.

 

[LD]

You've touched on an interesting point, indigo.

Those who "Need a sapphire ring by next week!" don't fare well here.

I think people just don't understand how unrealistic it is. The posters that drive me round the bend are ones that do no homework and expect us to do all the legwork. You'll find me notably absent from those threads.

One of my FAVOURITE newbies at the moment is James_K (colourblind and poor eyesight help me find a sapphire). That guy is lovely. He's open to ideas, willing to try things and listens. He's going to end up with beautiful sapphire and I don't think anybody is going to give up helping him.

Could not agree more. Another one is forcryingoutloud, whose fiance bought the sapphire ring off of ebay and she wanted help with information. Amazing attitude - one of those people who will make the best of every situation she encounters.

Sorry! Completely forgot about that lovely lady. Great attitude and spirit. x

 

[pregcurious]

The difference here though is what can be interpreted as a kind of bluntness in advice. There is much less chance of posters promoting specific alternative or posting links to other options. Questions are certainly answered, but there is very little hand holding over here. Knowledgeable aficionados tend to be a little reserved until they believe a seeker is really interested in learning how to find a good specimen for him/herself.

CS is by far and away my favorite forum on Pricescope!!!

I agree with this wholeheartedly, and it's what I tried to say on the other thread, but I'm not sure it got across. As a noob, I was first taken aback a little by the bluntness, but I embraced it. Hence, I've learned. But I understand that some people will be offended by the bluntness. I think we're blunt because there is a very steep learning curve. I've given common examples below.

On the CS side, we have people coming in who say they are looking for an ering to wear everyday, and then they tell us they want to wear X, which is a soft stone. Instead of saying okay, here's what you want, we say, um, you might not want to do that because it will be ruined in a year. You might want to look at the hardest/most durable stones (spinel, sapphire, chrysoberyl). Why are spinels so often suggested? Because in less saturated colors, they are well priced and come in many colors. Is it better to give someone what they say they want, or to look out for their interests and teach them how to fish? If they still want to buy X, that is fine, of course. Diamonds are hard--I don't think there's any practical reason (except for price) to steer people away from diamonds, and frankly there are no natural alternatives that are more practical. We also can't even discuss synthetic diamonds.

In the diamond forum, there is only 1 species. My impression is that new posters in the RT forum who are looking at erings usually are looking for modern white diamonds (D-J color), which are the best categorized gem in the industry. Diamonds are much more well defined for color, size, and clarity. The big "if", for me at least, in diamonds is the cut (with old cuts being much more complicated--but the posters for these tend to be seasoned veterans of diamonds). Let's compare modern white diamonds to blue sapphires, the most popular CS stone. For blue diamonds, there is no D-Z scale, and even in the most popular medium/vivid range, we have to talk about modifiers and tone. It took me years to understand what tone is. Perhaps I am slow.

How many people come in and say they want a medium, vivid sapphire, and then show us a pic equivalent to Catherine Middleton's ring? This is the norm. That's confusing to us. Some of us will say, do you really mean medium/vivid, because that is medium-dark/dark and will black out in certain conditions. Once we say that, most people have their eyes open to what makes sapphires different in price. If they still want that dark sapphire, that's fine, but the enthusiasm will be similar to someone on RT buying a stone with a bad ASET image. We have high standards over here also.

Even after several years on CS, I still feel like a noob. I am still finding out stuff about a stone I bought after I started here. It's just a lot of information to absorb. I know I have to do my due diligence (e.g. reading threads that are suggested to me) and have to contribute myself (with crappy pics for now).

 

[LD]

I understand what you're saying Preg. I'm not so sure that people are swayed away from their original choice of e-ring quite so much now as that was one of the main criticisms in the TL bashing thread. Actually as the forum risk taker and wearer of the softest stones known to man my advice is "get it if you want it but know how to look after it". After "that" thread I did notice that people now are more likely just to point out the risks but help with the search (there have been 3 or 4 recent Emerald threads that are a testament to that). I'm disappointed if this is still the case because I thought this had changed.

I totally see where you're coming from with hue/tone/saturation. It's too much for noobs to understand - and I also think even people who have been collecting for a couple of years struggle with this as well. I like to refer to light/dark and brightness because I think people understand that better. It's not correct but it'll do! I also like to refer to blackness rather than extinction because I remember when I was learning it was too much to take in. I'm glad you've brought this up because it's a timely reminder to go easy on the terminology.

What you (Uppy and Preg) have said that has really surprised me is that the answers have been blunt! I hadn't noticed that so I may be one of the offenders. I'd welcome you pointing it out if I do it!

 

[Lisa Loves Shiny]

There is a huge learning curve for many of us. When I was a newbie my feelings were hurt when I posted stones and did not get much response. Then I learned that if I posted a ring with a gem that was not ideal, I got responses of "beautiful ring" but not "beautiful gemstone". Nice responses from forum members who shared my excitement over my new ring, but did not want to hurt my feelings by critiquing my stone.

Now when I am unsure, or need help, I ask for honest opinions. And I am grateful when I get them. If I love a stone that is not ideal I do not ask for an opinion- because I know that I love the stone regardless of it's flaws. I have never had a forum member criticize a stone that I bought if I did not ask for a critique. They just share my joy.

If I am ever unsure, or need help- I ask for opinions, and I am amazed at how forum members see things I missed. Like you, I now appreciate this concrete criticism.

 

[deorwine]

I'm happy to see so many people who also love the atmosphere here! LD, yes, you are another one who always has useful and interesting things to say, while still understanding that others' tastes may differ, and I really value your opinion. (Although I will say that you are way better at getting great deals than I am! Though I'm looking forward to seeing your fish gravel... )

 

[JLW05]

I am a newbie in search of a tsavorite and I am grateful for the advice and honest appraisals I have received thus far. I jumped from the diamond forum and started lurking in the colored stones forum when I fell in love with a tsavorite posted in the diamond forum. Choosing colored stones is so much more difficult than finding the right diamond. Hue/tone/saturation - such confusing terms! I am amazed at the knowledge base of so many members and how their sharp, paracticed eyes can pick up what mine, without guidance, cannot.
I for one don't want to be told that a stone is lovely when it is not and I appreciate blunt appraisal. Thanks to the feedback I recieved,I was able to make an informed decision to return three stones because they did not measure up - only my newbie eyes did not initially see what was in front of me. Several members went out of their way and actually enlarged my photos, patiently tutored me about how to take a decent photo of the gems I had purchased (and believe me, that took a great deal of patience), etc., etc.
I read the opinions offered when a member posts a photo of a stone and try to learn from them. I honestly don't know that I will ever develop a good eye for colored stones. I do so wish there was an Intergem show within driving distance so those of us who are hoping to learn more about how to evaluate colored stones could have the opportunity to see and compare gemstones in person. What a learning experience that would be!

 

[chrono]

My guess as to the reasoning why there is hardly any promoting a specific alternative or links to other options is that there are so many vendors (and in turn, so many stones) to choose from. It will take hours to find a requested stone which many CSers don't have the time for. In the diamond world, there are only 6 or 7 recommended vendors at most, with at least 3 specializing in ideal cut rounds. Once the vendor is found, see the ASET or IS and viola, done! It's not the same with coloured stones. There's no perfect stone; we all aim for the best we can within budget and reason or the closest to to our personal ideal. The reason why there is little to no hand holding is because it is impossible. The more the OP is willing to learn, the better we are able to assist.

 

[LD]

My guess as to the reasoning why there is hardly any promoting a specific alternative or links to other options is that there are so many vendors (and in turn, so many stones) to choose from. It will take hours to find a requested stone which many CSers don't have the time for. In the diamond world, there are only 6 or 7 recommended vendors at most, with at least 3 specializing in ideal cut rounds. Once the vendor is found, see the ASET or IS and viola, done! It's not the same with coloured stones. There's no perfect stone; we all aim for the best we can within budget and reason or the closest to to our personal ideal. The reason why there is little to no hand holding is because it is impossible. The more the OP is willing to learn, the better we are able to assist.

If I've seen something on my travels in cyber world then I'm happy to post up alternatives but I honestly don't have the time to go on a shopping hunt - I do enough of my own! I also think that people learn by finding stones themselves and then asking for critique and then looking again if they want to. This is part of the learning process. After all, if you want to buy a house you don't get others to go and find them for you do you?

 

[minousbijoux]

I am a newbie in search of a tsavorite and I am grateful for the advice and honest appraisals I have received thus far. I jumped from the diamond forum and started lurking in the colored stones forum when I fell in love with a tsavorite posted in the diamond forum. Choosing colored stones is so much more difficult than finding the right diamond. Hue/tone/saturation - such confusing terms! I am amazed at the knowledge base of so many members and how their sharp, paracticed eyes can pick up what mine, without guidance, cannot.
I for one don't want to be told that a stone is lovely when it is not and I appreciate blunt appraisal. Thanks to the feedback I recieved,I was able to make an informed decision to return three stones because they did not measure up - only my newbie eyes did not initially see what was in front of me. Several members went out of their way and actually enlarged my photos, patiently tutored me about how to take a decent photo of the gems I had purchased (and believe me, that took a great deal of patience), etc., etc.
I read the opinions offered when a member posts a photo of a stone and try to learn from them. I honestly don't know that I will ever develop a good eye for colored stones. I do so wish there was an Intergem show within driving distance so those of us who are hoping to learn more about how to evaluate colored stones could have the opportunity to see and compare gemstones in person. What a learning experience that would be!

Yes!!! Who didn't fall in love with that amazing ring?!!

Believe it or not, I am confident you will. Everyone starts at the beginning, and finds it daunting. Just about everyone confuses tone, saturation and hue. WTH is extinction, anyway?!! Where did that curve ball come from? How, for crying out loud, am I supposed to know whether the cut is good?!! Where the heck is the ASET for colored stones?

But despite your doubts, you slowly begin to see things. Yep, its better if you can see them in hand - you get to compare and there is no substitute for seeing stones in different lighting situations. But you will see things.

Where do you live again (general area only please)? Even if there is not an intergem, you may be lucky and find some generous cutter or jewelry store as obsessed with CS as we are near you. Or there may be PS get togethers - many of whom have beautiful CS examples...

You are doing exactly what you need to do and learning everything you can - just know that if you don't want to make mistakes and regret purchases, patience is important (this from someone who learned the hard way and has warned countless others not to make the same mistake ) Please know that we love helping - it fulfills a selfish need of our own - so view it like you're doing us a favor!

 

[pandabee]

I, too, am a newbie in the CS world but I have greatly appreciated all the feedback and knowledge I have gained in my short experience here thusfar. It is an entirely different world from diamonds, but I actually enjoy the challenge of sorting through all the different options and learning more about all the various modifiers and nuances of each stone. Unfortunately, my own search is fairly sporadic as I can't afford the time to sit at a computer all day reading until my brain bursts with knowledge and I am seeing stars (not to say I don't on some weekends) but I acknowledge that the search for the perfect CS takes a lot of time and patience so I am not trying to rush anything. I think the ladies and gents here are supremely knowledgeable and like I said, I definitely appreciate that is is more difficult to educate people who venture over here on what to look for in a CS as there are many more factors so I am thankful for all the advice I have been given!