I thought I had the perfect ring until I came across HCA

[fiftysevenfacets]

Greetings all,

I will cut "no pun intended" to the chase......I have been searching for a diamond on and off for about a year now, although I understand that many here purchase rings on-line...I am planning on buying a ring in person....I found a store that I feel comfortable with and thought I found the perfect ring, and when I say perfect, I mean a ring that I thought I would be happy with.

The ring is GIA certified with the following:

Measurements: 6.39 - 6.48 x 4.04mm
1.02 Carat , Color F, Vs2, Cut Grade: Excellent
Proportions:--
Depth: 62.8%
Table: 57%
Crown Angle: 35.5°
Crown Height: 15.5%
Pavilion Angle: 41.4°
Pavilion Depth: 44.0%
Star Length: 50%
lower half: 80%
Girdle: Medium to Slightly Thick, Faceted (3.5%)
Culet: None
Finish:--
Polish: Excellent
Symmetry: Excellent
Flourescence: None

So here I was leaving the store thinking this could be the ring........and then I came across this website (excellent site) and read many of the resources and forums and now I have this sinking feeling in my stomach because I ran the HCA on the ring and got the following:
Light return: Good
Fire: Fair
Scintilation: Fair
Spread: Very Good

with a total visual performance score of 5.1

__________________

Can anyone kindly direct me as to what I''m missing here, I''ve read the post on discrepency between GIA & HCA and it seems like the general consensus is to use a two method system and perhaps find a happy medium between both GIA & HCA but if someone can critique the information from the HCA results and GIA (I''m assuming here that there is indeed a difference visualy between a 5.1 HCA score and had it scored below 2) and let me know your thoughts I would greatley appreciate it.

A humble seeker!

 

[kenny]

Unfortunately GIA's top cut category is too liberal.
It allows deep diamonds that don't look their best.
Cutting them to look better would cut away more diamond rough material; why should they do that when most shoppers understand carat but don't understand cut?

Look for one that scores under 2.0 on the HCA.
Then get Idealscope and ASET pics of it to help you evaluate the cut.

Now that you've found Pricescope there is no excuse for not having a well-cut diamond.

 

[Fly Girl]

Hi fiftyseven, and welcome to Pricescope.

A 1 ct F VS2 is a great combo, in my humble opinion, but you need better cut. When you get a stone with better cut angles next to the one you are looking at, you will be able to see the difference. A better cut stone will perform better in other lighting conditions, as well.

Basically, when I was diamond shopping, I would look for a stone that was GIA excellent, but also in the red zone of the HCA, not the deep blue zone. They are out there. Or, you can go with an on-line vendor that specializes in these stones.

 

[Rockdiamond]

Hi fiftysevenfacets!

It''s perfectly understandable wanting to buy in person.
The fact you have found a store you comfortable with is a very good start.

I would not easily dismiss a diamond graded "EX" for cut grade by GIA as anything less than a well cut diamond.
If the diamond is too deep it will look dark in the center.
You won''t need any special tools or training to be able to notice this.
If you''re unsure ask the jeweler to get in a stone of different proportions.
It''s totally possible they like the way the diamond they are showing you is cut. They may never have heard of the HCA, most people haven''t.
Many experts do not endorse it''s use- especially to eliminate diamonds you''ve inspected in person.


If you inspected the diamond - or even better diamond set into ring- in a variety of lighting conditions, trust your eyes.
Among other things, a really good use of this excellent site is researching the price for the grade.

 

[kenny]

Date: 11/10/2009 11:23:26 PM
Author: Rockdiamond
If you inspected the diamond - or even better diamond set into ring- in a variety of lighting conditions, trust your eyes.

Beware fiftysevenfacets.
"Trust your eyes", is what sellers of bad stones say when the customer doesn't know any better.
They do not want you to get educated on cut.
If you did you wouldn't buy their goods.
Sellers of well-cut stones are NOT afraid of cut evaluation tools like HCA, Idealscopes or ASET scopes because their diamonds can withstand the highest scrutiny.

Do NOT trust your eyes till they are educated and experienced on what is the best cut.
Good cut is rare and unless you are psychic you don't know what it looks like.

Put a well-cut diamond next to they one you are considering (away from deceptive jewelry store lighting) only then trust your eyes.

 

[e5116]

I had the same experience as you. I found what I thought was a really quality diamond (with an Excellent cut grade) and then it scored a 4.4 on the HCA. I actually ended up getting a Very good cut grade diamond that scored a 0.7 on the HCA scale (although not just for that reason). Based on a brief time on this site, most of the people subscribe to a particular philosophy of diamond choosing which is not necessarily accepted as universal truth in all diamond circles. (Don't get me wrong; I LOVE that I found this site and everybody has been extremely helpful and informative). Based on what I've read, GIA determined its cut grade categories based on survey results from thousands of individuals several years ago. Essentially, what actual people thought looked the best was then aligned with the dimensions and given the excellent score. Most people on this site and the HCA calculator take a more mathematical view on light refraction, etc. This should theoretically translate to your eyes as to what has the most fire, scintillation, and more, but it's possible that there's a disconnect or GIA's surveys are outdated. Seems like most on this site trust AGS's cut grading system more as its more performance based. I think both ALL of this information is valuable and should be taken into account. You don't want to make such a large purchase and regret it when there is a diamond out there that will make you happy. Good luck!

 

[Dancing Fire]

Date: 11/10/2009 11:23:26 PM
Author: Rockdiamond
Hi fiftysevenfacets!

It's perfectly understandable wanting to buy in person.
The fact you have found a store you comfortable with is a very good start.

I would not easily dismiss a diamond graded 'EX' for cut grade by GIA as anything less than a well cut diamond.
If the diamond is too deep it will look dark in the center.
You won't need any special tools or training to be able to notice this.
If you're unsure ask the jeweler to get in a stone of different proportions.
It's totally possible they like the way the diamond they are showing you is cut. They may never have heard of the HCA, most people haven't.
Many experts do not endorse it's use- especially to eliminate diamonds you've inspected in person.


If you inspected the diamond - or even better diamond set into ring- in a variety of lighting conditions, trust your eyes.
Among other things, a really good use of this excellent site is researching the price for the grade.

RD
62.8% still not deep enough for ya?

this stone is a perfect example of the stones my friends bring back from HK.

 

[FB.]

Date: 11/10/2009 11:58:52 PM
Author: e5116
I had the same experience as you. I found what I thought was a really quality diamond (with an Excellent cut grade) and then it scored a 4.4 on the HCA. I actually ended up getting a Very good cut grade diamond that scored a 0.7 on the HCA scale (although not just for that reason). Based on a brief time on this site, most of the people subscribe to a particular philosophy of diamond choosing which is not necessarily accepted as universal truth in all diamond circles. (Don''t get me wrong; I LOVE that I found this site and everybody has been extremely helpful and informative). Based on what I''ve read, GIA determined its cut grade categories based on survey results from thousands of individuals several years ago. Essentially, what actual people thought looked the best was then aligned with the dimensions and given the excellent score. Most people on this site and the HCA calculator take a more mathematical view on light refraction, etc. This should theoretically translate to your eyes as to what has the most fire, scintillation, and more, but it''s possible that there''s a disconnect or GIA''s surveys are outdated. Seems like most on this site trust AGS''s cut grading system more as its more performance based. I think both ALL of this information is valuable and should be taken into account. You don''t want to make such a large purchase and regret it when there is a diamond out there that will make you happy. Good luck!

Bear in mind that stones with excellent HCA scores but only very good cut from GIA sometimes get the lower grade from GIA because the cutter has dug or painted the facets, which can work against what appear to be an ideal set of angles.
I am very wary of stones with excellent HCA scores but less than excellent GIA scores. That''s not saying they''re all bad, but some might be.
But the painting and digging can also help some steep/deep stones look better, yet get a one-level downgrade in cut (from Ex to VG).

 

[FB.]

Date: 11/10/2009 11:58:52 PM
Author: e5116
I had the same experience as you. I found what I thought was a really quality diamond (with an Excellent cut grade) and then it scored a 4.4 on the HCA. I actually ended up getting a Very good cut grade diamond that scored a 0.7 on the HCA scale (although not just for that reason). Based on a brief time on this site, most of the people subscribe to a particular philosophy of diamond choosing which is not necessarily accepted as universal truth in all diamond circles. (Don''t get me wrong; I LOVE that I found this site and everybody has been extremely helpful and informative). Based on what I''ve read, GIA determined its cut grade categories based on survey results from thousands of individuals several years ago. Essentially, what actual people thought looked the best was then aligned with the dimensions and given the excellent score. Most people on this site and the HCA calculator take a more mathematical view on light refraction, etc. This should theoretically translate to your eyes as to what has the most fire, scintillation, and more, but it''s possible that there''s a disconnect or GIA''s surveys are outdated. Seems like most on this site trust AGS''s cut grading system more as its more performance based. I think both ALL of this information is valuable and should be taken into account. You don''t want to make such a large purchase and regret it when there is a diamond out there that will make you happy. Good luck!

Even some AGS0 stones can be abused and be slightly less than perfection because AGS (at least at one time) didn''t downgrade stones for painting and digging techniques employed by cutters.

 

[Lorelei]

Date: 11/10/2009 7:42:31 PM
Author:fiftysevenfacets

Greetings all,

I will cut ''no pun intended'' to the chase......I have been searching for a diamond on and off for about a year now, although I understand that many here purchase rings on-line...I am planning on buying a ring in person....I found a store that I feel comfortable with and thought I found the perfect ring, and when I say perfect, I mean a ring that I thought I would be happy with.

The ring is GIA certified with the following:

Measurements: 6.39 - 6.48 x 4.04mm
1.02 Carat , Color F, Vs2, Cut Grade: Excellent

Proportions:--
Depth: 62.8%
Table: 57%
Crown Angle: 35.5°
Crown Height: 15.5%
Pavilion Angle: 41.4°
Pavilion Depth: 44.0%
Star Length: 50%
lower half: 80%
Girdle: Medium to Slightly Thick, Faceted (3.5%)
Culet: None

Finish:--
Polish: Excellent
Symmetry: Excellent
Flourescence: None


So here I was leaving the store thinking this could be the ring........and then I came across this website (excellent site) and read many of the resources and forums and now I have this sinking feeling in my stomach because I ran the HCA on the ring and got the following:

Light return: Good
Fire: Fair
Scintilation: Fair
Spread: Very Good

with a total visual performance score of 5.1

__________________

Can anyone kindly direct me as to what I''m missing here, I''ve read the post on discrepency between GIA & HCA and it seems like the general consensus is to use a two method system and perhaps find a happy medium between both GIA & HCA but if someone can critique the information from the HCA results and GIA (I''m assuming here that there is indeed a difference visualy between a 5.1 HCA score and had it scored below 2) and let me know your thoughts I would greatley appreciate it.

A humble seeker!

Hi 57 f,

This is a steep deep diamond and that pavilion angle is in itself too steep, very likely this diamond will show light leakage. It is also deep physically, you can do better.

 

[fiftysevenfacets]

Hello,

Thank you all for your responses and contribution, all your points are well taken.

My peculiar position is that I have based my selection on the GIA report only, and then stumbled across this site and the rest is history.....I had chosen and narrowed down the diamond based on the features I was looking for and the EX grading by GIA but unlike e-shopping I don''t have a second diamond to choose from given that the remaining of the stones ini the store were not in my price range or the excellent grade by GIA, so many have recommended using the HCA to eliminate stones and narrowing a selection as opposed to picking....

Like many systems outthere it has limitations, so how do I know i''m not passing a good stone only because the HCA score?

One intersting point I wish to make is that the store owner who I''ve been working with and while looking at this diamond, said why don''t we look at it under an idealscope and after showing it to me , he had a printed picture of what the perfect picture should look like, and said keep in mind, this is only a gimmick but its something else to consider and reminded me that all diamonds are unique and have there own beauty...I guess the point I''m trying to make, obviously he is well aware of HCA/Idealscope etc...but obviously does not put much weight on it when selecting his inventory.

 

[stone-cold11]

if you look into the steep/deep thread, there are some that like seeing leakage, in some this is compensated by special/lucky faceting techniques, others don''t. It is up to you and what your priority is in choosing a stone and spending the money on it. We are basing it on our preference and in this thread, just the numbers you provided, we do not even have the benefit of seeing an Idealscope image much less a live view. Look at it, compared it with a stone with an ideal idealscope image, since the vendor obviously have some, in as many different lighting conditions, not just the bright direct lighting conditions, as you can think off and see which one you like.

 

[pyramid]

I do not agree, the Idealscope is not a gimmick. It saved me from buying a stone at a local jeweller one time, when it showed me exactly what
I was seeing and did not like with my own eyes - i.e. the stone was a steep deep. The Idealscope is an invention which is great at removing diamonds
which are not great. There are other things too though that can mean the not so great diamond according to the Idealscope score could be a good one, like checking the lower half percentages as these if longer than ideal hearts & arrows stones, can make a stone better although the main angles are not
so good, I assume this would ruin the hearts & arrows pattern though?

 

[Regular Guy]

big sea...many fish...

 

[Lorelei]

Date: 11/11/2009 9:51:29 AM
Author: Pyramid
I do not agree, the Idealscope is not a gimmick. It saved me from buying a stone at a local jeweller one time, when it showed me exactly what
I was seeing and did not like with my own eyes - i.e. the stone was a steep deep. The Idealscope is an invention which is great at removing diamonds
which are not great. There are other things too though that can mean the not so great diamond according to the Idealscope score could be a good one, like checking the lower half percentages as these if longer than ideal hearts & arrows stones, can make a stone better although the main angles are not
so good, I assume this would ruin the hearts & arrows pattern though?

PYRRIE!!!!

 

[pyramid]

Hi Lorelei

 

[Lorelei]

Date: 11/11/2009 12:55:34 PM
Author: Pyramid
Hi Lorelei

Great to see you!!!!

 

[Hest88]

Regarding the Idealscope/gimmick thing. This was an interesting thread that compared what the consumer saw through the IS to the diamonds she was buying.

https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/a-day-at-tiffanys-with-the-i-scope.69733/

 

[Rockdiamond]

HI everyone

Kenny, isn''t your post a bit of an over-reaction?
I''m the only seller I can see on this thread.
We don''t carry round diamonds- if we did I would be trying to stock my personal favorite a 60/60- which could never be called "deep".

I have no idea who the seller is in this case, I''m not protecting anyone.

A question for you Kenny.
If one was a teacher of diamonds, should they use their own opinions, or teach others to look at stones objectively?

Now a joke for you Kenny.
A lady comes home and catches her husband in bed with another woman.
"Why are you cheating on me?" she cries.
"What are you talking about, I''m not sleeping with anyone else" defends the husband.
"BUT I SAW YOU!!!" says the wife

Husband: "Who are you going to believe, me or your lying eyes?"

Fiftyseven- I apologize if the thread has taken on it''s own life here....
If I was concerned abut a diamond being too deep there''s two aspects I''d look for.
1) A dark center. Different from contrast, a stone cut too deep will look noticeably dark ion the center- you won;t need any sort of training to pick that up
2) A stone cut too deep can look small for it''s weight.
The stone in question here spreads up to 6.48- very nice size for a 1.02ct.

I very much like the way this store has been handling your questions.
Many in the trade see the IS as a gimmick.
I''ve never seen a buyer in the trade use one- but them whe I''ve sold to other dealers they were looking at actual stones.
Neither side is "wrong" - there''s different ways to look at this.
The HCA is not "bad" but many who understand it feel that it represents too much opinion- based on it''s creators opinions.

 

[kenny]

We're almost there.

 

[fiftysevenfacets]

Hello everyone,

I must again thank all who have responded to this post,

I have come to realize that like anything in life, no matter what stone I buy, not everyone (assuming I pay every person for their opinion) would agree with the purchase. I accept that and its unfortunate, there is no absolute "truth", but there are tools to help reach near that achievement including this site and the the kind people who take the time to respond.

Like I mentioned before, how do I buy a stone from a store when the person tells me, "don''t put too much emphasis on these certificates, tools, scopes, ect...". What if I walked into a store and realized how dim the lights were in the store, would that mean that this store is an honest store and worth working with or is that a "gimmick" as well to establish trust.

I wish there was a way to walk into a store and say to the jeweller; I want a GIA specification of "This" , and HCA Score of "This" and an idealscope of "This", ect......and walk away happy............I understand the criticism about GIA certificates (or any other, as its been debated on these forums) but it can''t all be bad......I mean if I buy the diamond I mentioned in the begining of this thread, would all those who back the HCA, if they had the chance to see my diamond, would they tell that it lacks fire/brilliance/scintilation...

My last point is, and ties to what I''ve written above; In theory, can a diamond that is excellent in every aspect of GIA, scores well in HCA, looks great with an idealscope etc....still fail in performance...and what I mean in performance is the fire/brilliance scintilation ect...?

 

[stone-cold11]

Would I notice the lack of fire in this stone, yes.

Would a stone that is Ex in GIA, scores well with HCA and looks good in IS fails, yes. IS only takes into account of light return, not fire or scintillation.

 

[Lorelei]

Date: 11/11/2009 5:27:50 PM
Author: fiftysevenfacets
Hello everyone,

I must again thank all who have responded to this post,

I have come to realize that like anything in life, no matter what stone I buy, not everyone (assuming I pay every person for their opinion) would agree with the purchase. I accept that and its unfortunate, there is no absolute 'truth', but there are tools to help reach near that achievement including this site and the the kind people who take the time to respond.

Like I mentioned before, how do I buy a stone from a store when the person tells me, 'don't put too much emphasis on these certificates, tools, scopes, ect...'. What if I walked into a store and realized how dim the lights were in the store, would that mean that this store is an honest store and worth working with or is that a 'gimmick' as well to establish trust.

I wish there was a way to walk into a store and say to the jeweller; I want a GIA specification of 'This' , and HCA Score of 'This' and an idealscope of 'This', ect......and walk away happy............I understand the criticism about GIA certificates (or any other, as its been debated on these forums) but it can't all be bad......I mean if I buy the diamond I mentioned in the begining of this thread, would all those who back the HCA, if they had the chance to see my diamond, would they tell that it lacks fire/brilliance/scintilation...

My last point is, and ties to what I've written above; In theory, can a diamond that is excellent in every aspect of GIA, scores well in HCA, looks great with an idealscope etc....still fail in performance...and what I mean in performance is the fire/brilliance scintilation ect...?

It depends on the proportion configurations, with images you should have a reasonable idea of the effectiveness of the diamond's ability to perform, but as to the individual nuances ( F,B,S) no real way to tell without seeing it. For example you might have all the components to have a really great meal, but in the end it might lack flavour....Wouldn't often be the case I would imagine with the above scenario especially if you have images but not impossible.

 

[Rockdiamond]

Date: 11/11/2009 5:42:05 PM
Author: Stone-cold11
Would I notice the lack of fire in this stone, yes.

Would a stone that is Ex in GIA, scores well with HCA and looks good in IS fails, yes. IS only takes into account of light return, not fire or scintillation.

If the stone is on fire, won't it burn?
Sorry for the bad joke but the entire concept of naming the way light moves through a diamond is controversial
Fiftyseven- simple answer: NO, having the best HCA/IS score, or GIA EX cut grade will not guarantee that every person ( or even most) will love the stone better than another well cut stone scoring poorly on HCA/IS
The stone you saw could easily be among the second group.

 

[yssie]

Totally OT:

Kenny, you have the strangest sense of humour

 

[kenny]

Yes, the entire concept of naming the way light moves through a diamond is controversial.
People can't even agree on where to place the lights.
And then it could be daylight savings time or not.
It could even be at a different place on the earth so the sun strikes the stone at a different angle.
See, you just can't be sure of anything.

There's no guarantee the diamond below will not be loved by some for having the best light performance.
Let's not discriminate and be closed minded.
I don't see a problem with it.
It looks beautiful to me.

Nothing is for sure except that ALL diamonds are equal.
Just find a jeweler you can trust, and trust your eyes.
Oh and thank you so much for reading my post.
I love you all.

Disclaimer: This post is sarcasm, oh and hopefully comedy too.

 

[purrfectpear]

57facets, I''m going to suggest you do a search by author when you evaluate who posts in this thread and decide how much credence you want to give their posts, or not.

Just because someone is a seller of diamonds does not mean that they are experts, or that their views are without controversy or respected by others in the trade. That''s all I have to say about that

 

[Hest88]

Date: 11/11/2009 5:27:50 PM
Author: fiftysevenfacets
My last point is, and ties to what I''ve written above; In theory, can a diamond that is excellent in every aspect of GIA, scores well in HCA, looks great with an idealscope etc....still fail in performance...and what I mean in performance is the fire/brilliance scintilation ect...?

I''m going to slightly disagree with Lorelei here. (Only slightly!) If a RB diamonds hits all the numbers, no it''s not going to fail. It might be disappointing to you for other reasons, and it may not be the absolute pinnacle of diamond perfection, but it''s not going to be a dog. It''s not quite a like a dinner--a dinner is also dependent on spicing and not being under or over-cooked, etc. Once a diamond is properly cut it''s properly cut. It will be nice unless someone chips it or throws nail polish on it!

 

[Lorelei]

Date: 11/11/2009 6:25:11 PM
Author: Hest88

Date: 11/11/2009 5:27:50 PM
Author: fiftysevenfacets
My last point is, and ties to what I've written above; In theory, can a diamond that is excellent in every aspect of GIA, scores well in HCA, looks great with an idealscope etc....still fail in performance...and what I mean in performance is the fire/brilliance scintilation ect...?

I'm going to slightly disagree with Lorelei here. (Only slightly!) If a RB diamonds hits all the numbers, no it's not going to fail. It might be disappointing to you for other reasons, and it may not be the absolute pinnacle of diamond perfection, but it's not going to be a dog. It's not quite a like a dinner--a dinner is also dependent on spicing and not being under or over-cooked, etc. Once a diamond is properly cut it's properly cut. It will be nice unless someone chips it or throws nail polish on it!

LOL! You can disagree! Anyway to try to explain further, as we know there are different types of well cut diamonds. What I meant was, that images can't always predict individual performance nuances, for example those of brilliant ideal cuts compared to Tolkowsky Ideal compared to fiery ideal cuts. All are well cut stones but have different ' flavours.' One can show more brilliance than fire, another a mix of both, another extra fire etc. Therefore one flavour or performance nuance might not appeal to one person but will to another and so on. Well cut diamonds are well cut but they can have visible differences to each other so it comes down to personal preference which out of the well cut diamonds on offer to pick.

 

[Rockdiamond]

Hey, I agree with Lorelei too!

I guess I could have made my point better before about the use of terminology, such as "fire"
Of course we need to use words to convey what we''re seeing, and the term fire" is a great one to use.
Even in that regard, there are many different types of fire.
What I mean to say is that when Lorelei just used the term, it was a descriptive, in context, and makes perfect sense.

Where I feel differently s a rating system to classify "fire" numerically.
That''s the part that is controversial.