Income tax debate

[allycat0303]

Me and a couple of my friends had a debate (and now a wager) and I was wondering if anyone would care to clarify. It was a debate on whether moving to the US is the best deal. This is a question that comes up about every month, and I don''t know any Americans, I thought I would ask.

a) In the highest tax bracket in the US what % of your income is lost to taxes? We guessed
30%, 35%, 40% (me!). Closest one wins....

b) If you are in a car accident, and your life is threatened, will they take you to the hospital and treat you even if you DON''T have insurance? Will they check for your insurance before they treat you? What happens when you get out of the hospital?

c) Does everyone have private health care insurance? If you don''t, what happens when you need medical care for non life- threatening?

d) And finally, do most Americans feel that health care should be accessible to everyone?

Thanks everyone! We hear all sorts of conflicting info on this, so any clarification would be nice.

 

[strmrdr]

Oh boy I could write a book answering those questions.
Top fed income tax rate 33%
Add another 7.5% for S.S.
State income tax rates - none to 6% or 7%
Sales tax - none to 10%
property taxes vary a ton per area.
Over all most people pay around 55% of income total for all the taxes combined.

b>yes they will treat you. Follow up care can be problematic sometimes.
If you have a job they might or might not forgive part of the bill.
Even if they do they report it to the credit reporting agencys and trash your credit.
Within 120 days its turned over to collections further trashing your credit.

c> can be problematic. I blew out my elbow recently and had to come up with $300 before the specialist would see me.
Another $200 down for the mri and 33% of the operation costs up front if needed to get it fixed.

If you have pre-existing conditions forget getting insurance at less than your full salary unless working for a company with 10000+ employees.
Which is why I dont have insurance.

d> yes but not goverment run because they mess everything up.
I dont have a good solution but the .gov running healthcare isnt the answer.

 

[ammayernyc]

Not positive, but I think these answers are correct...

a. There is no set rate... it all depends if you file as single person or jointly with your spouse. Also, it depends on if you have any dependents. Here is a web site explaining... but I think the short answer is closer to 35%.

b. If you are in a car accident and an ambulence is called, they will take you to the closest hospital. They do not check your insurace first. I know this from experience (not a car accident, but the ambulence part).

c. Not everyone has life insurance. In fact, I think the statistic is only 25% of the population has it. There are two types of public health insurance -- Medicare, for people 65 years and older or for people with diablities, and Medicaid for people who are poor. If you are injured and don''t have insurance, but it is not life threatening, you go to a public hospital and wait in the waiting room.

d. I, personally, believe that all Americans are entitled to health insurance. However, I also believe that one should be able to buy additional insurance if you can afford it. It is still paying for better care, but in matter of health, I don''t care if that''s the case.

 

[allycat0303]

Amanda, Stmdr! Thanks for answering. You have no idea how many med students debate this Canada (day in and day out

) Should we take our American board exams or not? The US is viewed as paradise for medical students: out of Mcgill''s graduating class of 160, only 4 remain in Quebec. Sadly, enough we debate but we haven''t the slightest clue what we are talking about

.

So to clarify Medicaid will cover everyone else that can''t purchase extra insurance. I think Canadians have the impression that the system lets people die if they can''t afford to pay.

As for taxes, in Quebec it''s 55% income and 15% on everything except food. So it''s pretty similar to the US from what I can see.

And final question (because this is the point of contention too): How much is a college education (bachelor''s degree and professional program? The figure most Canadian students say is $300 000 US. Which makes me wonder how anyone can afford college

.

 

[ammayernyc]

Date: 6/23/2005 10:05:58 AM
Author: allycat0303
Amanda, Stmdr! Thanks for answering. You have no idea how many med students debate this Canada (day in and day out

) Should we take our American board exams or not? The US is viewed as paradise for medical students: out of Mcgill''s graduating class of 160, only 4 remain in Quebec. Sadly, enough we debate but we haven''t the slightest clue what we are talking about

.

So to clarify Medicaid will cover everyone else that can''t purchase extra insurance. I think Canadians have the impression that the system lets people die if they can''t afford to pay.

As for taxes, in Quebec it''s 55% income and 15% on everything except food. So it''s pretty similar to the US from what I can see.

And final question (because this is the point of contention too): How much is a college education (bachelor''s degree and professional program? The figure most Canadian students say is $300 000 US. Which makes me wonder how anyone can afford college

.

Medicaid does not cover everybody, unfortunately. You have to be making under a certain amount -- it varries by state. If you make a little over, you can ''spend down'' to the month amount you need to be under. It really is an unlivable amount -- I think in NY you need to making less than $700 a month. If you make more than that, and cannot afford private insurance, then you are uninsured. Here is link for NY... The government is constantly calling for cuts in Medicaid... so horrible. Many people do die each year because they don''t have insurance or they have received inadequate care from a public hospital. However, I personally don''t know one doctor who would work in a public hospital because the pay is so little and they just spent all this money getting their medical degree.

College education really varries. There are public universities where it costs very little -- but they are state universities. There is no such thing as a ''Federal College.'' In New York we have SUNY (State University of New York) and in New York City there is also CUNY (City University of New York). I don''t know the tuition costs at each. However, if you life in say, New Jersey, and want to go to a SUNY school, there is an out-of-state tuition that you must pay. Private universities are upwards of $25,000 per year. I don''t know anything about graduate schools, as I did not get an advanced degree. However, sometimes if you have a job, they will subsidize your advanced degree. I know many businesses will help you pay to get your MBA, but then you are locked into working for them.

 

[Buena Girl]

And final question (because this is the point of contention too): How much is a college education (bachelor's degree and professional program? The figure most Canadian students say is $300 000 US. Which makes me wonder how anyone can afford college

.

whoa! I don't think it is that much money, but I am not sure. That would be a great question to post in the Are We There Yet forum b/c so many girls are in med programs right now. I can tell you one thing about it, though. There are so many different paths to getting to med school that it would be difficult to put an exact monetary amount. Private college undergrad ($$$$$$$) versus out-of-state State college undergrad ($$$$$) versus In-State undergrad ($$$) versus 2 years commmunity college+2 years live-at-home-State-college undergrad($$). And other such combinations. There are also LOTS of scholarships (both through colleges as well as private funds) that people can apply for. Some private colleges will even help you find scholarships if you are in dire need.

There are also ways to get college credits before going to college (have you heard of AP exams? VERY cheap to get!!). And there are accelerated programs that if you are in them, you are in school for less years and therefore the cost is less. These are things you have to be accepted in when you are in High School, so it is for highly driven people who know they want to be in a med program.

For a person who comes from a well to do family and also does not apply for any scholarships, then I guess it may cost them that much money. But for evreyone else, there are ways to get the same education for less money.

 

[allycat0303]

Amandapanda: Wow. That doesn''t sound like fun at all. We hear about Medicaid cuts, but that didn''t mean anything to me before, now I have a better understanding of the structure. Here in Canada we only have the public system, so there is no debate, if anything the main concern for ALL Canadians is increasing the funding of healthcare. But we have other problems like the fact that waiting lists are insane. One of the most enduring arguments in Canada about why we should not have a dual system (both private and public) is the fear that doctors will refuse to work in the public system. So from what you say, this is a reasonable fear.

Thanks for taking the time to answer, I will be sure to pass on your explanation to my friends

Buena: I think that''s how much it would cost of a Canadian to go to med school in the US. Comparisions sake. I was just accepted into Medical school in Quebec, and my tuition is $5000 a year. For some reason Quebec students think that is a lot of money, which makes me mad

AND the students......actually go on STRIKE!! As far as I''m concern it''s practically free. Thanks for clarification!

 

[Buena Girl]

Buena: I think that''s how much it would cost of a Canadian to go to med school in the US. Comparisions sake. I was just accepted into Medical school in Quebec, and my tuition is $5000 a year. For some reason Quebec students think that is a lot of money, which makes me mad

AND the students......actually go on STRIKE!! As far as I''m concern it''s practically free. Thanks for clarification!

$300,000 just for tuition? Or $300,000 for tuition and room and board? In my own experience, it''s the room and board that makes the US colleges so expensive! How is it in Canada? Do most people go away to college or do they stay at home?

Now that I am thinking about it, I don''t believe that I have ever met a single person from Canada that went to my college, my sister''s, or any of my friends'' colleges. There were plenty of people from all over the world at my school when I went to it, though, but I did not know of nyone being from Canada. And I know people who were native canadians and went to school in Canada, but now work in the US. How common or uncommon is it for Canadian citizens to go to US colleges?

 

[njc]

To give you an idea about the whole college thing, you can make it as expensive or cheap as you want. You can attend either private or public/state schools. Private schools are generally more expensive, but if you attend a public/state school, it could be just as expensive as a private school if you are not a resident of that state.

My example:

FI and I attended the same public/state university in Virginia. I lived in Virginia and got to pay "in-state" tuition. FI lived in New Jersey and had to pay "out-of-state" tuition.

Tuition for the 2005-06 school year at our school:
In-state=$4,959 per semester
Out-of-State=$16,298 per semester (more than 3 times in-state)

A sampling of private schools in Virginia's 2005-06 tuition (per semester): $34,850 (Univ. of Richmond), $27,960 (Washington & Lee), $11,850 (Lynchburg)

Cost is a large factor when picking schools here. My number one choice school cost $26k a semester ($18k with a $8k scholarship) which was about 5 times more than what i did pay for tuition.

 

[allycat0303]

Buena: I don't think many Canadians go away for school because it is SO cheap in Canada. Basically if you can't get into med school in Canada (they take about 10%) then they consider American schools. However, it's more likely that they go to Carribian (sorry spelt wrong) schools for their med school degrees. In Canada, when you are looking for a job, there is not much stock in prestige schools in the US. Except for Harvard, Princeton, and Yale. I think that with the exchange rate, and foreign student fees it might just be too expensive. We have a lot of US students in Montreal though! I believe it's very affordable.

NJC: It seems like so much to me! I suppose that's why people have college funds. There's virtually no such thing in Canada, because people know that college is very accessible.

Feydakin: I'm really starting to wonder why it's said that Quebec people are the most heavily taxed in North America, because 60% is ALOT. Maybe people in Quebec made that up so they could complain

. Or maybe it's the 15% sales tax on everything. Can be a pain in the rear.

 

[ammayernyc]

The worst taxes, however, are estate taxes -- aka death taxes. When my mother died, I had to give over 50% of the money I inherited to the government. Why? BECAUSE SHE DIED! That was the only reason...

 

[Blue824]

Date: 6/23/2005 10:05:58 AM
Author: allycat0303

And final question (because this is the point of contention too): How much is a college education (bachelor''s degree and professional program? The figure most Canadian students say is $300 000 US. Which makes me wonder how anyone can afford college

.

Definitely not 300,000 USD! I''d say, once you factor in living expenses and food and books its about half of that, so $150,000 to attend a private university for four years. That would assume no studying abroad and also not going over the credit hours per semester you pay for (usually 18 and then you''re charged more, average student probably takes 15-16).

Then graduate school tuitions are about the same. I will begin grad school this upcoming fall and the programs I looked at the prices ranged from 450 to 1000+ per credit hour. Same thing with figuring in all the expenses, it definitely adds up!

A lot of people come out with a bunch in loans. Some parents tell their kids they need to go to an in-state school or get a scholarship. It can get pretty expensive though!

Another way people cut down on cost is to become a research assistant, teachers assistant or a residential advisor. I''m sure a lot of that is the same in Canada. Also, if you just work for the school in general, like in the administration, you''re usually allowed a certain number of "free" credit hours a year. "Free" because I do believe it counts as taxable income - still cheaper than the class though!

 

[movie zombie]

i''ve worked with many canadians here in the US. most did their schooling in canada and europe prior to coming to work in the US. perhaps you can find an online group of canadian ex-pats liviing in the US and pose the questions to them. since they have chosen to live and work here but are from your country, it would seem logical that they could give you all the pro''s and con''s.

peace, movie zombie

 

[partgypsy]

Regarding question: should everyone have accessible health care, this is a yes!
Though I agree with Strmrdr on most things, I do NOT agree the government would "mess up health care" any more than its current condition. Many people cannot afford basic preventative care, and end up being seen in the ER when their conditions become more severe and it is the most expensive to treat. Publically funded health care already happens, but in a grossly inefficient and inhumane way. Those unpaid ER bills? Those costs are passed indirectly onto those with insurance. There are many people who would like to work for themselves, start a business or work at a small but hopefully growing company, but do not do so for fear of changing jobs and losing health benefits. Just think how having a national health care would help small businesses! Even if you have a job with health benefits, one''s benefits are tied to that job and the threat is always there; it is estimated that almost half of bankrupties are related to medical crises (have a medical crisis, cannot work, lose health insurance, cannot pay medical bills).
One misconception is that people receive better care in private plans. Look at the Veterans affairs (a government health provider). JAMA (Journal of the American Association) labels the VA as a "bright star" of health care safety. A number of studies have shown that individuals get better care in VA hospitals than fee-based plans. Why? Because HMOs exist to make money, not to provide the best care, while the VA has mandates it must fulfill. I do have to agree that government-based plans may be difficult to implement, but it has been done. As part of my post-doc I had the pleasure of hearing experts who study this kind of thing for a living. There are many arguments for a nationalized health plan, few against. The argument should not be IF we have nationalized health care, but what flavor. We are one of those countries economically speaking that is very capable of having a successful health care system. Unfortunately the issue has become so politicalized, and entities that would lose out (like health insurance companies) have so much clout, this idea will never be discussed in a meaningful way.

 

[Jennifer5973]

There are approximately 300 million Americans and approx. 50 million do not have health insurance, which is about 16%. Not good.

 

[Mara]

re: strms comment re: pre-existing conditions and not getting insured, basically it''s hard to get insurance if you have a pre-existing condition (and nowadays it''s almost anything, they are SO stringent), but if you get a job with a company they are required to insure you, regardless of pre-existing conditions. maybe it''s just a CA thing, but i have alot of friends who had some sort of pre-existing thing working for large and small companies that got insurance with problems and their rates are the same as everyone elses, aka 10 to visit the doctor, 10 for prescriptions etc..nothing out of control at all. it''s if you don''t have insurance through work or cobra expires and you try to get it on your own that you can be denied with pre-existing conditions. however, and i don''t know if this is in CA only, but if you don''t have a lapse in coverage, aka you have insurance through work, you get laid off, opt for cobra for 18 months, and it runs out, you have the right to be covered by the same insurance company or another one by LAW but your rates may be VERY HIGH. however they can''t deny you insurance coverage entirely unless you have a lapse.

alot of people here went through this when they got laid off in the bust and alot of people were on cobra that was coming to expire...or got new jobs etc, so our groups of friends had tons of these discussions so i am pretty well versed in what companies are will or won''t do, what you pay etc, at least for this area of CA!

 

[Mara]

oh and on schooling, to add to the other comments, here are some other estimates.

public: $10-15k a year
private: $25-35k a year
mba school: $30-60k a year depending on school etc. Greg paid $50k a year I think for his? he also did the one year program for MBA.

oh and i think that's just tuition, not living expenses etc. so schooling can be pretty pricey!! alot of people pay for it with scholarships or financial aid or student loans...or parents help. but alot of time if you are on your own you can get a good amount of financial aid and then loans for the rest. almost everyone i know has a student loan or two, but you eventually pay it off (years later!)...hehe.

 

[codex57]

a) about 35%. Generally less b/c if you have that much income, you have enough to pay for an accountant/tax attorney to tell you how to lower it through investments, created losses, etc. Tax shelters basically.

b) Yes. They have to take you in emergency situations. For you Californians, that''s Health & Safety Code Sec. 1371.4 (what my firm mainly handles).

c) No universal health care. For non-life threatening, you''re basically out of luck. Hopefully, you''re Medicare eligible and the gov''t will pay for some of it.

d) Not sure. I think everyone would like everyone to have health insurance, but when you talk about funding it, that''s where you get divided opinions.

For schooling:

Undergrad: $2-6K/yr is my guess for public schools. Privates are approximately $25K/yr.

Grad schools: Public is around $1,000-2,000 per year more than undergrad. I went to a public law school in California. I only paid about $11K/yr. Private would have cost me $24-30K/yr. Other fields like medicine can run up to $40K/yr at private schools.

$300K total for education is only if you went to the most expensive schools possible. Some people do that. Why, I have no idea. I went all public. My total cost for undergrad and law school came out to around $57,000.

 

[strmrdr]

Fed. law is that if you go from one insurance policy to another due to changing jobs they cant exclude prexisting conditions but if you dont have insurance for over either 90 or 180 days then that doesnt apply.(to tired to look it up).
So basicaly if you cant afford cobra and cant find a job right away your basicaly messed up for a long time as far as insurance goes.

If the time has expired and you have pre-existing conditions they will generaly jack your rates up sky high and not cover much of anything for 12 months even if you do get insurance.
Anything even remotely related to the previous condition will be denied.
The only way around it is a good group policy with a enough members in the group.
Even those sometimes have 6 month exclusions for pre-existing conditions.

Some states have better laws than the federal law but most dont.

 

[strmrdr]

"One misconception is that people receive better care in private plans. Look at the Veterans affairs (a government health provider). JAMA (Journal of the American Association) labels the VA as a "bright star" of health care safety. A number of studies have shown that individuals get better care in VA hospitals than fee-based plans."

That was not always the case.
They go thru cycles where they are very good and cycles where they are very bad.
They get some of the best foreign doctors but very few american trained doctors.
With the foreign medical schools being on par if not better than the average US medical school that isnt always a bad thing.
We have several doctors as clients and a lot of them came to the US thru that route.
They get expenses paid to come to the US a smallish salary and the trianing and certs they need to work in the US over 5-7 years then move on to private practice after it.

 

[Sparkster]

In Australia, the more you earn the more you pay taxes: (these figures and percentages are not correct, just an example)

$0 - $7000: you pay no taxes
from $7,001 - $25,000: you pay 17% tax of any money earned in this bracket
from $25,001 - $32,000: you pay 25% tax of any money earned in this bracket plus the 17% for previous bracket
from $32,001 - $45,000: you pay 35% tax of any money earned in this bracket plus the previous 25% and 17%
from $45,001+: you pay 49% of any money earned earned over $45,001 plus the previous 35%, 25% and 17%

Is this how it works in America or is it flat rate?

 

[Momoftwo]

Taxes here vary widely for income levels because of deductions. You can deduct interest on your mortgage, health costs (if you spend over a certain percent of your income on it, like 2%), business related expenses, other taxes paid, 401K contributions and charitable giving. So, two people making the same amount may actually in the end pay very different amounts.

As for college, we are currently paying for our two boys to attend. Our oldest in a Virginia State University (very highly rated school and difficult to get into) which is only around $14,000/year for everything (room, board, tuition) because we live in Virginia. He graduates in May''06. My youngest is in a private christian college in Pennsylvania and because it''s private, it''s $27,000/year for everything, but he gets about $5,000/year in scholarship money from them. Private schools give a lot of scholarship/aid that in state public universities do not. Most of my youngest son''s friends at school are getting $10,000 or more in aid because their parents make less and/or they''re missionaries or ministers. Some states universities are more, a few less than the 14k we''re paying. State Public Universities are cheaper for instate residents because state taxes subsidize them. But, lately the instate tuition has gone up more percentage points than the out of state.

Hospitals will never turn away someone in an emergency situation. That''s why they charge everyone else (via insurance) so much. Also, even though there are people without health insurance, the only ones that dont'' get health care are those that don''t pursue it. There are a lot of public and private plans out there. In low income areas, most are serviced by free clinics and mobile vans. And, children never have to go without health care. There are serveral ways to get them free healthcare.

I just learned something about health insurance yesterday that''s very interesting. During WWII, companies couldn''t increase how much they paid employees due to some limitations placed on them so they started offering health insurance to employees to make up for pay increases. So, health insurance by no means has always been required or expected. Due to this, those with health insurance started paying more for care and prices rose dramatically. So, health insurance caused it''s own situation. Prior to WWII when you went to the Dr., you paid him in cash or bartered for a minimal amount per visit. Dr''s only lived a little better than most of their patients. Insurance costs are now high because the costs of medical care is a lot higher and those who do have insurance pay for those who don''t. Hospitals take losses every year. I love when people want the Federal Govt to pay for things. Don''t they realize, that would be all of us paying for it? Meaning higher taxes which everyone is already complaining about what they''re paying now. Since we don''t live in a perfect world, there is no perfect solution that will make everyone happy. The constitution provides for the pursuit of happiness, not happiness itself.

 

[strmrdr]

If those without insurance make the rates higher for those with insurance will someone please tell me why im paying $1500 for an mri that the insurance companies pay a max of $600 for?
Its just the opposite they cut cherry deals for their crooked insurance partners and screw everyone else over.

btw: a federal grant paid for the mri machine they didnt pay a cent for it.

 

[hoorray]

Strm, that stinks. I''ve dealt with a lot of medical bills over thelast few years (family members), andit''a amazing what gets billed versus what Medicare pays. I always wonder if the non-insured (people who can probably afford it the least) are actually expected to pay those hugely inflated initial rates that are billed. I know of people who negotiate with the provider before getting service to pay the lowest insurance rates. You might have to be in a big enough city to have some competition, and maybe you would have to pay upfront or something, but I know that they are sometimes open to that.

No way should individuals have to pay the inflated billing rates. Insurance companies sure don''t.

 

[partgypsy]

Not to bring up the health care situation, if anyone has looked at bills and what gets reimbursed and what doesn''t and who gets billed what depending on insurance, etc, it''s completely cockamanie. It has come to the point that billing is often not tied to the actual value of the service provided, but more an administrative dance between all the entities (health insurance, doctors, hospitals) to get paid as much as they can possibly get away with. That is either to a)make a profit (some making out more than others), or b) cover unprofitable areas, which hospitals often do so they can provide care to uninsured/underinsured individuals. Regardless, the situation has gotten so complex that it''s true no one really knows all the implications if it goes back to a simpler transparent fee for service.

 

[ammayernyc]

Billing is out of control. Two stories to prove my point:

1. My bf broke his leg on a Saturday night. He was taken to the hospital in an ambulence. Because of that, insurance should have covered everything. After xrays and tests and lots and lots of demerol, the hospital told my bf that he would need surgery. They wanted to wait until Monday to do it for various reasons. After he is well and recovered, he gets a bill from his insurance for $35,000 for the surgery. He called and explained the situation. The insurance said they wouldn''t reimburse for the surgery since the surgeon was out-of-network (and he had a PPO -- so it should have at least covered most of it). They said he had a day to find a different surgeon on Sunday... sure, completely doped up, in more pain that I could ever want to imagine, and he was supposed to know (without the hopsital telling him) that his surgeon was not covered by insurance and wouldn''t be covered b/c it wasn''t an immediate surgery. I''m still not sure if it''s all resolved.

2. I just had a blood test. Got the bill in the mail. $1,700. For two vials of blood. I submitted it to my insurance and am still waiting to hear...

 

[partgypsy]

I had a birthmark on my knee removed. I had very good insurance, covering 90% of expenses. After it was removed, for six months the bills started pouring in. Luckily I only had to pay 10%, but those bills totaled over 6K! Am I really supposed to believe it costs that much to remove a birthmark?

My husband broke his leg badly when he did not have health insurance. While waiting in the waiting room on one of the follow up visits to xray his leg, we get to talking to the father of this guy who was there. His son had his foot shot off in a hunting accident. He was taken to the local hospital, where they say no go, his foot is so damaged it will need to be amputated. "but I wouldn''t take no for an answer. I made them take him with the life flight heliocopter to Duke (he lives in VA), because if anyone could save his foot, Duke could. And after numerous foot surgeries, blood transfusions etc, they are able to save most of his foot." We say gosh, wasn''t that expensive? I thought he would say nothing is too expensive for his boy, etc but he said "yep, I think the bills are around $180,000 at this point." And he laughs. "But I''m never going to pay them." He thought it was the biggest joke on them. You can take this as a story on the miracles of modern medicine, or a partial explanation why everyone''s medical bills are so high.