Find your diamond
Find your jewelry
shape
carat
color
clarity

Input on BN Diamonds

M

Mike714321

Rough_Rock
Joined
Jun 22, 2014
Messages
84
First post here but definitely not the first time reading the forums. Lots of helpful stuff here and across the internet. I started my search on BN, but became weary of buying sight-unseen. Went to a local store where I had the C.G.A., G.G. go over some specs, give me a crash course (on top of hours and hours I've done myself online) on diamonds. I actually took him GIA reports from BN of stones I was interested in, to get opinions as well as give him an idea what I wanted so I could buy locally so I can see before purchase. He told me he'd look, few weeks go by with no luck, contact again and he said he'd get me something that week, no replies. Of all the local stores I went to, this guy seemed the most knowledgeable, up front with me, but I'm getting rubbed the wrong way considering the lack of effort.

Back to BN is where I'm at now. I'm looking for something that's between 0.99 and 1.10ct, H or better, Ideal cut or better, VS2 or better, VG or better polish, VG or better symmetry, depth between 60 and 62%, table between 54 and 57%, and faint or less fluorescence. Pretty steep requirements for my budget. In person, the guy showed me that I was probably wasting money on my clarity, that I could get by with an SI1, perhaps even an SI2. The catch is that for that to be true, I'd definitely want to see the stone in person prior to purchase. I just don't think I'm comfortable buying an SI from BN. My thought being that even if the gem plots in the GIA reports "look" nasty, they're still graded VS2, so should still be eye-clean or better, thus less likely to get something I don't like. I found what I thought was a perfect stone yesterday, but it's gone today :( The slow bird doesn't get the worm I suppose.

Anyway, here are two that I'm interested in and am looking for some input from forum members who enjoy the forums and like helping shaky-handed guys spend their chunk of cash safely.

My first choice is LD04423536, a 1.00/Ideal/H/VS1. What I like about this is that the GIA report doesn't have any comments such as "clouds are not shown" and there's nothing on the top of the diamond, just a feather in bottom. This one is at the max of my budget. My catch here is that the symmetry is Very Good and not Excellent, but it is an H. Which leads me to the next stone...

This one is LD04468802, a 1.00/Ideal/I/VS1. I like this one because its got Excellent on both polish AND symmetry, but the catch is that it's an I color. Also, there's a feather in the top, but it's short and not in/below the table facet so based on sample images of feathers and the fact that it's a VS1, I'd think it'd be just fine.

So both have Excellent cut, but one's got Very Good symmetry and is an H while the other has Excellent symmetry but is an I.

Or maybe I'm just being way too picky. That's one problem I know I'm personally having, I tend to be a perfectionist in life, especially when it comes to the financial aspect, want to get the best for my budget. I'm also a mechanical engineer, so I enjoy getting into the very fine details which I inevitably get caught up in, lose the big picture, and then come to diamond forums looking for advice!

Finally, here's a 3rd stone I found that is runner up so far, LD04468925. This is a 1.00/Ideal/H/VS1 as well, but there's a comment of "Clouds are not shown". and there's also more inclusions, one being a crystal in the table facet.

And for fun and games, and for me to wallow in sadness when you all say this was a winner, here's the one that's sold, LD04529405, a 1.00/Ideal/H/VS1 that had no comments, a feather near the table facet and two small pinpoints, with Excellent on polish and symmetry.

Sorry for the "book" first post, but hey, I'm an engineer, details matter, I can't control myself. Anyone have thoughts here? Much appreciated. The plan is to buy one from BN and then have it set locally in a white metal. I've checked a few other online places that have actual pictures such as JA, but I'm just not finding these stones in my price range on sites that have actual pictures.

Much appreciated,
Mike
Indianapolis, IN
 
FYI, unless I missed it, you didn't post your price range
 
I mentioned the first diamond was at the max of my price, so 6900 or less. Sorry, should have been more clear.
Thanks,
Mike
 
Would you ever consider something pre-owned? Is your budget for the stone only, not including setting? Have you seen I color stones in person?
 
Pre-owned is an option. Her and I don't have any qualms with that. Budget is for stone only. I'm looking at about 8 or 8500 with setting. I believe I was shown some I's in store. Good old gold had a very helpful comparison with pictures as well. I know that whatever I get, color isn't that big of a deal since once it's purchased its' not going to be in a lineup with D's! The local guy tried to tell me I want as colorless as possible because it was going in white and I should trade off for clarity, but both H and I are considered near colorless/white still. I'd really love to buy locally if possible, because then you get to see it. I just, haven't been pleased with local shops. Typical stores here are Distinctive Diamonds, Patora, G. Thrapp, Hofmeister. I haven't even step foot in a Kay/similar department stores or even checked their sites because I assume I'm not going to find the documented details I want before buying and would be relying more (only?) on visuals, and I'm not a gemologist of any kind.

Thanks,
Mike
 
I also forgot to mention, any maybe this is what's shooting me in the foot, is that on all these sites, I"m setting my searches to also have tables of 54-57% and depths of 60-62%. Most of the things I've been looking for have HCA's of 1 or less, but it seems as though, and proved by KP, that there's more out there if I can lower my clarity and widen the table/depths?
 
Mike714321|1403460428|3698670 said:
Pre-owned is an option. Her and I don't have any qualms with that. Budget is for stone only. I'm looking at about 8 or 8500 with setting. I believe I was shown some I's in store. Good old gold had a very helpful comparison with pictures as well. I know that whatever I get, color isn't that big of a deal since once it's purchased its' not going to be in a lineup with D's! The local guy tried to tell me I want as colorless as possible because it was going in white and I should trade off for clarity, but both H and I are considered colorless still. I'd really love to buy locally if possible, because then you get to see it. I just, haven't been pleased with local shops. Typical stores here are Distinctive Diamonds, Patora, G. Thrapp, Hofmeister. I haven't even step foot in a Kay/similar department stores or even checked their sites because I assume I'm not going to find the documented details I want before buying and would be relying more (only?) on visuals, and I'm not a gemologist of any kind.

Thanks,
Mike
Click to expand...

I like your very logical approach to this. I honestly think you can get more from your money buying on the secondary market, if those are the stones you're finding in your price range. I did a very basic search on ebay for stones in your desired spec range and found one that's close to what you want:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/GIA-CERTIFIED-1-03CT-H-VS2-PLATINUM-Round-Excellent-Cut-Diamond-Engagement-Ring-/321437931186?pt=Diamond_Solitaire_Rings&hash=item4ad73196b2

The seller is willing to just sell the stone, so you may be able to make an offer here of $5K, and see what happens. If you got it for anything under $6K, I think you did very well. It's a perfectly good stone with tons of life left and very comparable to what you're already looking at. A visit to an estate jeweler can also turn up some good options. I would even go into Chicago if I were you.

I have a bias, but an I or J old European cut stone with some fluorescence would make for a really stunning stone, and in your budget, you'd get more in weight for your money. Just a thought...
 
Thanks for the links RG. I guess I didn't even think about places such as eBay. I thought you were talking estate type places. The deals to be had are probably better, but I'm not sure if I'm comfortable with eBay. I did, just for fun, look on Craigslist, just to see. Probably ill advised haha. At least with BN and similar, I can return and am out the bank wire fees and shipping/insurance.

One of my other issues is time, I'd like to get something pretty darn soon. So at this point it's easier to use sliders on sites than find estate places where they'd have to look around for me. That's also why I'm back to online vs. local because the stores are having to hunt for me. Does anyone know if local brick/mortar stores will give discounts for cash payment? I didn't know if in the diamond industry that's something that's been done, or is that mostly for cars??

This will be going into an art-deco style setting, halo that's pavilion shaped, if I have my terminology right. Her fingers are too small (4.5) to have a lot of stone on either side as well. Went in and looked at some and she agreed, can't keep her fingers together and kinda hurt when she tried.
 
Mike714321|1403463118|3698693 said:
Thanks for that link RG. I guess I didn't even think about places such as eBay. I thought you were talking estate type places. The deals to be had are probably better, but I'm not sure if I'm comfortable with eBay. I did, just for fun, look on Craigslist, just to see. Probably ill advised haha. At least with BN and similar, I can return and am out the bank wire fees and shipping/insurance.

One of my other issues is time, I'd like to get something pretty darn soon. So at this point it's easier to use sliders on sites than find estate places where they'd have to look around for me. That's also why I'm back to online vs. local because the stores are having to hunt for me. Does anyone know if local brick/mortar stores will give discounts for cash payment? I didn't know if in the diamond industry that's something that's been done, or is that mostly for cars??
Click to expand...

Here's the thing, many very good estate jewelers also sell on ebay. You have to know your seller. For a purchase like this, I would speak with the seller on the phone, get pictures and video. Read through the feedback and type of items the seller has sold. It's no different than buying from anyone else so long as you do your due diligence. I happen to think using ebay, Paypal, a credit card, and using feedback to hold the seller accountable, you have more layers of protection than buying from a store.

For something fast, I would go into Chicago. Marshall Pierce is an excellent estate jeweler and if you call in advance and tell them what you're looking for and budget, they can tell you whether they can help. They carry a lot of rings that are not on their website.

Good luck!
 
Thanks for the input on the estate sellers. Regarding the three I listed, does anyone have feelings on those? I think we could all agree that better deals could always be found, but factor in the amount of time it may take and I feel like for timing and what I've been able to find it the budget, these few seem to be about as best as I'll find? Alternatively, I could drop into SI's and buy something online that has pictures at least.

I assume my primary dilemma between the two stones is trading color for a bump in symmetry. I assume the better symmetry is going to create better fire/scintillation and brightness. Color on the other hand, would be more apparent if it's going in white. I guess the rea; question is would the bump between very good to excellent symmetry create more brightness that'd cover up the I color?

Will she even be able to notice an H from an I? Probably not, but I will... I swear, sometimes I wish I weren't a stickler for specs and nitty-gritty details. :nono:
 
Another topic I just read on PS was a post about feathers, where they are, and their impact on integrity. Someone with a high post count (take it for what it's worth) mentioned that GIA only lists feathers if they reach the surface. The one I'm looking at (LD04468802) has two feathers, one on top near the girdle, but doesn't show the red line touching the girdle, and another on the pavilion, almost at the culet, barely noticeable on the plot. Can anyone verify the GIA feather statement? Perhaps I should look at the other stone (LD04423536) with only one feather shown on the bottom that's not near the culet or the girdle. Perhaps these feather locations drive the price more instead of the color and symmetry differences?

What's interesting also is that LD04468925 and LD04423536 are practically the same. One has more inclusions than the other, but their prices are about the same. LD04468802 has a lower color, but better symmetry yet is a couple hundred less than the first two... which seems as though it could be from color or the location of the feathers. I'm not sure how much weight symmetry has on a diamond compared to color.

:errrr:
 
Hi Mike,

First off, I think you're on the right track by being a knowledgable customer and being open to looking online. I like that you're considering numbers.

Regarding your limits on table size and depth, those ranges will capture the "ideal cut" you already specified. The thing about these measurements (which also include the critically important crown and pavilion angles) is that they have to work well with each other. It's not enough to say, "I want a crown angle between 33.7 and 35.8 degrees, and a pavilion angle between 40.5 and 41.3," because those two have to balance each other out. So just finding a stone whose measurements for those are in those ranges doesn't guarantee a good cut overall.

You mentioned considering "very good" symmetry and polish on some stones. I would strongly consider limiting your search to GIA "triple excellent" and AGS0 stones. This takes out a lot of the guesswork for cut when you're shopping online where getting images like Idealscope and ASET is trickier.

A good cut will help a lower colored stone face up with more brilliance and fire. Also be aware that 1.00 carat is a magic number where you'll pay a bit of a premium just for that. In fact, some cutters sacrifice some of the awesome cutting to preserve some weight to hit that number. So pay close attention to quality of cut around that magic number.

Regarding inclusions for VS1, they shouldn't be eye visible and shouldn't cause any issues with integrity and light performance to an unaided eye.

You're in the right place for making an educated and informed decision a bit easier. :)
 
Thanks for the input SG. I've been using the HCA tool to throw out the ones that have the correct tables and depth but not the good angles. The 3 I'm looking at all have HCA scores below 1.0. I think I've become comfortable with an I color, mostly because I keep forgetting that color is graded from the back and when in a setting and face up, color is more difficult to judge. The guy at the local shop told me that diamonds at 1ct don't have the extra cost, but I still don't believe that.

What is a GIA triple excellent? Is that excellent on cut, polish, and symmetry?
Starting to wonder if my choices aren't optimal based on the the lack of comment on the ones I've chosen and more input from others linking to alternatives... haha.

Anyways, appreciate the input thus far!

Thanks,
Mike
 
I'm going to answer my own question here... yes, it's excellent in cut, polish, and symmetry from what I can tell. What's interesting is that the LD04468802 is a GIA "triple", yet it's the cheapest stone of the 3. Either because it's an I instead of an H or... because the two feathers are surface reaching perhaps?

I assume there's no way to figure out who is in possession of a BN diamond based on its GIA certificate number is there? Surely WF, JA, and others don't share databases? Or would it be possible to find the same BN diamond listed at another online retailer? Doesn't seem like they would, but hey, worth asking.

Thanks,
Mike
 
Mike714321|1403531378|3699139 said:
I'm going to answer my own question here... yes, it's excellent in cut, polish, and symmetry from what I can tell. What's interesting is that the LD04468802 is a GIA "triple", yet it's the cheapest stone of the 3. Either because it's an I instead of an H or... because the two feathers are surface reaching perhaps?

I assume there's no way to figure out who is in possession of a BN diamond based on its GIA certificate number is there? Surely WF, JA, and others don't share databases? Or would it be possible to find the same BN diamond listed at another online retailer? Doesn't seem like they would, but hey, worth asking.

Thanks,
Mike
Click to expand...

mike,

just wondering, you seem to really want to go with BN. Most people on here, including myself, have probably leaned that way at first. We also have told you that the problem is that you cannot glean all the information you need from dimensions or a GIA cert.

Based on my limited understanding of diamonds, imaging is > all, that's the true test of performance. People are suggesting these other alternative shops because they provide either A ) imaging or B ) AGS data which includes imaging.

What makes you prefer BN over these other vendors? I am also a technical professional like you, and the extra data from the AGS cert and imaging was necessary for me once I understood its vast value.

Good luck either way, but I cannot see why BN would be in the running considering the prices are no cheaper than the other vendors who provide what is IMO necessary imaging data.
 
Kenny reinforces a good point here, that images are critical data.

Now, I might buy an AGS0 stone unseen if if the numbers were good and I had no images, but only if I really trusted the person looking at it for me and if the price/return policy were good. Images really help get an idea of how the stone might perform in real light to real eyes.

Regarding your comment about the fellow saying the 1.00 carat stone wasn't any more expensive, he may have been completely honest. The cut just might not be as good. See what I mean? :)

The 4 C's of diamonds are like sliders on a sound board. Dial up, dial down. Everything's a compromise. The question for you is where you want the compromise to be.
 
Thanks for the input. I guess I'm not taking into account the pictures. Actually, if I'm being 100% honest, I think I'm probably choosing BN over the other online stores because in the end, I want a stone that is out of my budget and drawings of inclusions looks nicer than pictures. So when I see a 40x picture of a feather from another online store I think wow, that looks bad, and go back to BN where I can't see that, I just see a tiny little line here and there and think it must look better. I guess maybe I should expand my horizon from BN and just really keep in mind that the pictures they're showing are 40x. BN was my first choice because it's the most known and also, compared to BN, the store fronts of the other pages aren't as "professional" looking in my opinion, so maybe I'm placing more trust/confidence in how a webpage looks and not the items for sale.

With that said, it sounds like JA, WF, and GoG are pretty reputable companies with good return policies that have real images or at least reports with images? Are there any others I may want to look at? And should I only be looking at "in house" or is the virtual ok as well?

Thanks,
Mike
 
Those are some top vendors. Check out Wink at High Performance Diamonds as well. http://www.highperformancediamonds.com

I agree with you about looking closely at 40x images. We're talking about something about the size of a pencil eraser. VS2 is safe, as is SI1 if you or a gemologist at the vendor can verify it's "eye clean."

The three vendors you mentioned are all top shelf and well vetted here and elsewhere; no worries regarding the quality of the websites.

Here is just one example of one from HPD that seems to be in the ballpark for you.
http://www.highperformancediamonds.com/index.php?page=view-id-diamond-infinity-new&id=1030

Or...
http://www.highperformancediamonds.com/index.php?page=view-id-diamond-infinity-new&id=881

Lots of options! :D
 
Hmm... I think is where my frustration is. I'm able to find about 20 diamonds on BN that fit the search criteria I'm after, but they're all GIA and no pictures/scope views. If I go to WF and put in the same search specs, I get no diamonds in house or virtual. On the BG page I get about 10 diamonds, but all are virtual and GIA, and therefore have no pictures, so essentially no different than BN unless I'm missing something. I suppose this means I have my sights too high for my budget, and in comes the simple truth of what BN is, better prices, but you are buying blind?

It seems the key is to shop at a store that has items "in-house" or only sells items in-house. Buying from a site besides BN and shipping their virtual stuff is no different then BN correct? And to get something online that's got pictures, I'm going to have to drop down into SI1.

So... if I'm aiming for VS2 and better and want to chance it, BN is the store. If I can get over the 40x pictures that make mole hill into mountains, drop to SI1, maybe SI2, and make sure I'm shopping in-house selections, then I'm best off with WF, BG, GoG JA, etc?
 
Unless I'm seeing a different link than you are, there aren't any images on that page. The magnified image is a sample and is the same as other stones listed on that site.

When we say images, we mean Ideal-Scope (IS) and ASET. The aforementioned HPD has a good education page: http://www.highperformancediamonds.com/index.php?page=education-performance

Regarding getting "comfortable" with SI1, you need to verify it's eye clean. You cannot do this with digital images. Eye clean means an actual human being took it out, looked it over, and said s/he couldn't see any inclusions. If someone is doing it for you (like, say, a gemologist at one of these online vendors) you might want to specify how "eye clean" you want their threshold to be. Some SI1 stones are eye clean at 12" but not at 6", or not from all angles. Saying a stone is "eye clean" by looking at a magnified digital image is a contradiction.

Check out some of the stones others have suggested earlier in this thread! Some good ones there.
 
SG, I was talking about why it's so comparatively cheap yet it's internally flawless. Which brings up a good question. If the stone is IF, do you need pictures? Not that I'll be able to afford IF stones, but off the bat I thought no, but I guess you'd still want to see them to evaluate the hears/arrows, brightness, etc.
Regarding eye-clean, is there something that's the most standard? I've read half-arm length, you mentioned distances. If as you mentioned the gemologist at the online vendor is saying it's eye clean then I assume the next logical step is to ask what their "distance" is and if it's good enough for me?

Finally, if I'm coming up short on selection on multiple sites, does anyone have suggestions on my table and depth ranges? I've been adjusting sliders to search for stones with tables between 54-57% and depth of 60-62%. Perhaps this is too narrow and I can open those ranges and still be within TIC ranges?

Thanks!
Mike
 
Hi Mike,

Good discussion! I don't speak for B2C, but it might be cheap for reasons other than the clarity. Remember that GIA excellent covers a wide range. Some say the top 10-15% of stones. If you're a law firm looking to hire the best recent graduate, do you want her to say she was in the top 13%, or do you want to see her transcript?

As far as the distances for "eye clean," there's no standard. That's the tricky thing about this exercise. Many probably consider it to be arm's length: that is, the normal distance for the person wearing it to view when holding it in front while on the hand. If you have particular concerns about lighting or really close distances, I'd call them.

I'd shift away from this concept of sliders for table percentage and depth and look for AGS0 stones. That makes things easier. AGS Labs represents the strictest and most conservative lab for cut and light performance. All of those percentages have to (a) be within the ideal range, but also complement each other. It's not enough to say, "Show me stones with tables between 54-57% and depths between 60-62%," because that'll capture a lot of bad stones. That's like saying, "I want to see the beautiful women. Show me the women between 5'05" and 5'09"." It doesn't really tell you anything on its own.

Hope this helps! I think we're making some progress.
 
Thanks for the points. So... is it correct then to say that GIA's "excellent" rating for cut, polish, and symmetry are less stringent than AGS0 stones? I guess, and this makes sense I suppose, that you can't exactly match stones in grades between GIA and AGS, otherwise what'd be the point in having two different scales. I assume that means on vendors sites I'd want to be looking to check boxes that are AGS0 or GIA triples. The one problem I see here is that I don't think I'm going to be able to afford an AGS0 or GIA triple ex in my budget. I think where I'm at is I want AGS doubles or GIA dueces, where color can be an H or an I, then I can get in my price range, but realistically it's going to be a VS or SI stone.

So all this means specifically (I think?) I'm looking for
GIA stones with Excellent on cut, polish, and symmetry with an H/I color and no matter the clarity, pictures. OR
AGS stones, zeros on cut, 5 or better on cut, 2.0 or 2.5 color (H/I) and all AGS stones will at least have the plot and light performance map.

Perhaps this is a decent example of my AGS stone? It's heavier than I was looking at.
http://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut-loose-diamond-2982221.htm

It seems like most stones I'm looking at are GIA certified, not too many are AGS. What gives? If I take a guess, does it have to do with the fact that as you mentioned, GIA's excellent covers maybe the top 15% whereas AGS scale has more grades? or more stringent? Seems if that's the case, I'm more likely to find GIA stones than AGS stones with a set criteria?
 
We're starting to branch off into other discussions that already have awesomely detailed threads here on PS. Yes, AGS is more exact and conservative on cut. There is no "AGS doubles." AGS uses a 1-10 scale for cut, clarity, and color. Check out their website for info. https://www.agslab.com

AGS0 means the best score for light performance, polish, and symmetry. All three being 0 equals a 0 score for cut. Fewer stones are sent to AGS for grading. Most of the top vendors, whose links others have provided in this thread, offer stones with AGS reports.

You can absolutely afford an AGS0 stone. The only question is where you want to compromise. Cut is king, Mike; we cannot stress that enough. The whole point of a diamond is to reflect light. That's what cut is for!

Regarding your Whiteflash link, if it's eye clean at SI1 it's a good one.

To answer your question, yes, look for GIA "triple excellent" or AGS0 stones. I'd recommend the latter in your case. Don't compromise on cut. Decide the lowest you're willing to go for color and clarity. Once those three are locked in, then get the biggest you can afford. Don't get a bigger stone by compromising everything else. There are too many big and lifeless diamonds out there. Embrace the brilliance that's possible. :)
 
Sorry for the branching off. I'll be honest, I'm asking questions, then googling them myself. :facepalm:
I thought the triple zeros were referring to best cut, clarity, and color. I've dun learned and it's 0's on light performance, polish, and symmetry.

Therefore, it seems that ASG0's and GIA Triple Ex's are basically the same except that GIA doesn't grade light performance and it sounds that AGS has more grades to assign or has more stringent classifications.

So yeah, I guess I was wrong, I can still get an AGS0 stone or GIA triple in my price range. I think I'm pretty comfortable at this point with an H or I and clarity above SI1 with an SI1 working if I can get input from a real person in possession of the stone. Also, don't put much weight on plot maps, light performance maps, idealscopes, etc. are far more valuable. Oh, also, I don't want to be looking at virtual selections unless they happen to have real pictures/scopes/maps which is unlikely.

I think I got stuck on the BN/GIA road as the only one for me simply because BN is what I heard first and it seems almost all those stones are GIA so I disregarded AGS stones.
 
Glad to hear, Mike. It's all about learning, man. As far as AGS0, it used to be that a famous "AGS Triple Zero" was 0 for cut, clarity, and color. However so many vendors mistook it to be for the three aspects of cut that they followed the, "If you can't beat them, join them," and now "triple zero" means light performance, polish, and symmetry. Any of those being above 0 nudges the whole cut score above 0.

Plot maps are cool, but what matters more is if the inclusions affect the light performance. If a stone is scored AGS0 and VS2 for example, then its inclusions didn't hurt the light performance in any significant way. So shopping for AGS0 stones makes your journey a lot easier.

You can do better than BN. Check out some of the other vendors mentioned above. :read:
 
SirGuy|1403662886|3700533 said:
Plot maps are cool, but what matters more is if the inclusions affect the light performance.If a stone is scored AGS0 and VS2 for example, then its inclusions didn't hurt the light performance in any significant way.
Click to expand...

Didn't think of it that way. Pretty cool aspect of the AGS scale then, kind of helps calm the fears of inclusions from light performance standpoint. I really appreciate the help I've gotten here on PS so far. There's tons more to be given and much much more to read. Looking forward to searching with my new knowledge!

Thanks,
Mike
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
GET 3 FREE HCA RESULTS JOIN THE FORUM. ASK FOR HELP
Jewelry Blog
PriceScope-Concierge-Ad
Find prime cuts.
Top