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Insights into Ruby prices

@Dr_Diesel sorry not Ruby but what is going on with blue sapphires? I’m finding them annoyingly expensive. Am I looking in the wrong places or they’ve gone up?
 
mellowyellowgirl said:
@Dr_Diesel sorry not Ruby but what is going on with blue sapphires? I’m finding them annoyingly expensive. Am I looking in the wrong places or they’ve gone up?
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No, they have become absurdly expensive as well. They just had a show in Bangkok this past weekend and the prices were just stupid.

$3000-4000/ct for unheated blues in 2-3ct size and people were asking $12,000-$13,000 per carat in 8ct sizes.

4 carat Tsavorite are going for like $3000 per carat - and not even completely eye-clean

2-3ct Clean Jedi Spinels we’re $10,000-$15,000/ct.

It’s all so stupidly expensive that I can’t fathom buying anything these days.

The only thing I bought was a pair of lab grown diamond trapezoids for $90. At least those are cheap!

I also noticed that the section for lab grown gemstones of all kinds was definitely bigger this year than it’s ever been before.
 
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mellowyellowgirl said:
@Dr_Diesel sorry not Ruby but what is going on with blue sapphires? I’m finding them annoyingly expensive. Am I looking in the wrong places or they’ve gone up?
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This whole trend with colored stones is very discouraging. I’m kind of over it. Everything is out of reach for me these days.

I guess I’m lucky that I still have a small collection of maybe 12 stones left. Most of them are pretty small, but I guess I’ll just hang onto them.

For years, I’ve been thinking that there was a correction coming, but everything just keeps going up.

I guess it’s time to appreciate what we already have!
 
Wow! Boy am I glad I didn’t trade in Gengar!

I’ve finally made peace with heat in blue but now I’m going around thinking “I’m not going to pay that for heated!!!”

You’d think they’d be falling in prices with the proliferation of lab stones!!!!

Thank you for giving us the goss though!
 
mellowyellowgirl said:
Wow! Boy am I glad I didn’t trade in Gengar!

I’ve finally made peace with heat in blue but now I’m going around thinking “I’m not going to pay that for heated!!!”

You’d think they’d be falling in prices with the proliferation of lab stones!!!!

Thank you for giving us the goss though!
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Yes, I’m also glad that you didn’t trade in Gengar!!!!

I think you had us all worried there for a hot minute!

Based on what I saw at the show, if you wanted to get Gengar’s twin and paid the asking price… you’d be looking at right around $100,000!
 
mellowyellowgirl said:
Wow! Boy am I glad I didn’t trade in Gengar!

I’ve finally made peace with heat in blue but now I’m going around thinking “I’m not going to pay that for heated!!!”

You’d think they’d be falling in prices with the proliferation of lab stones!!!!

Thank you for giving us the goss though!
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Interestingly, heated blues are not going up as much. Maybe $2500-ish/ct in 4ct sizes…but still!

All of the gem dealers and people in the trade that I know won’t even touch heated material now. They say it’s too difficult to move. Everybody wants unheated Stones.

I was there with a couple of my Swiss friends. They have rather deep pockets and even those guys didn’t buy anything.

I don’t know what’s happening with the trade, but somebody must be buying this stuff.
 
Dr_Diesel said:
Yes, I’m also glad that you didn’t trade in Gengar!!!!

I think you had us all worried there for a hot minute!

Based on what I saw at the show, if you wanted to get Gengar’s twin and paid the asking price… you’d be looking at right around $100,000!
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Pleeeeeaaaase!!!! don’t ever sell Gengar! That needs to remain a family heirloom!

… or could potentially buy a house for your kids one day if the trend continues!
 
So glad I am able to keep my Tsavorite Garnet 2.53ct 7.57 x 7.57mm cut by Jeff W!

I still have one more stone in hand with him, a non-Columbian Emerald.

Good job I am not into blues, and have a lab Asscher Sapphire cut by Gary B in hand waiting to be set as I cannot justify spending big money on a natural medium blue Sapphire.

I still have quite a few nicer stones in hand that I would like to set.

My Holy Grail coloured stones on my wish list, being a 2ct+ glowy Mahenge Spinel and a 3ct+ Paraiba cabochon will remain as such, unless I win big money playing the lottery!

I am still kicking myself for not getting the 2ct+ pear Mahenge Spinel that Gary B showed me at Tucson in 2023, hey ho!

DK =)2
 
Oh...that makes a lot of sense. Thank you for sharing the situation with rubies and also the unheated blue sapphire uptick. Well, when I am off ban island again, I'd have to dig deeper into my pockets for...any unheated corundum of good color apparently. Or go without. I purchased and returned one 2 carat unheated sapphire a couple years ago because of its window and if I knew prices were going up this fast I'd have kept it. :???:
 
Thank you for sharing! I suppose it's just a matter of us mining them faster than mother earth can produce them. So just like precious metals, the prices will always rise. On one hand, I resent it. And on the other, I like to see the values of what we own grow!
 
Are those price hikes so surprising given the development of emerging markets and the civil war in Burma ? In a sense, pristine rubies and sapphires are very much like gold as they hold their value over the long term, don't they ? I would be curious to see a graph comparing the evolution of other stones prices over the last ten years. Tourmaline seems very popular and I have seen some blue spinels (not cobalt ones) even reach unheated sapphires prices (which seems silly).
 
Lunean said:
Are those price hikes so surprising given the development of emerging markets and the civil war in Burma ? In a sense, pristine rubies and sapphires are very much like gold as they hold their value over the long term, don't they ? I would be curious to see a graph comparing the evolution of other stones prices over the last ten years. Tourmaline seems very popular and I have seen some blue spinels (not cobalt ones) even reach unheated sapphires prices (which seems silly).
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last year when resizing my ring my jeweller was saying peridot used to be so cheap
and now isnt
 
Daisys and Diamonds said:
last year when resizing my ring my jeweller was saying peridot used to be so cheap
and now isnt
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Sphene too. I was kind of shocked at how much the prices increased. There are still some sellers who haven't raised their prices too much but many have. Beautiful stone but soft on the Moh's scale.
 
Yeah I understand the price hikes for durable stones with small productions like spinel or chrysoberyl but sphenes and peridot...
I visited Lightning Ridge in January and the miners told us their best rough is immediately sold to the Chinese market these days, especially the red coloured black opals. I guess the Chinese demand is behind the hikes for many stones.
 
Lunean said:
Yeah I understand the price hikes for durable stones with small productions like spinel or chrysoberyl but sphenes and peridot...
I visited Lightning Ridge in January and the miners told us their best rough is immediately sold to the Chinese market these days, especially the red coloured black opals. I guess the Chinese demand is behind the hikes for many stones.
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I remember when sleeping beauty turquoise skyrocketed in pricing. The mine closed, yes, but it was also heavily due to Chinese demand.
 
Lunean said:
Yeah I understand the price hikes for durable stones with small productions like spinel or chrysoberyl but sphenes and peridot...
I visited Lightning Ridge in January and the miners told us their best rough is immediately sold to the Chinese market these days, especially the red coloured black opals. I guess the Chinese demand is behind the hikes for many stones.
Click to expand...

The high-end gem dealers I know have probably an 80 to 90% Chinese customer base
 
Thanks for the update,, @Dr_Diesel .
What was the range of ruby prices that you saw?

I’m seeing the same trend here in Singapore. Many of our local retailers are finding it much more expensive to acquire gemstones to replace whatever they have sold.

I’ve been following the China vendors’ prices on WeChat. The ring below is an 2ct, GRS PBR (hmm) unheated Mozambique ruby. The price is CNY158,000, slightly less than USD 22K.IMG_0907.jpeg
 
Crimson said:
Thanks for the update,, @Dr_Diesel .
What was the range of ruby prices that you saw?

I’m seeing the same trend here in Singapore. Many of our local retailers are finding it much more expensive to acquire gemstones to replace whatever they have sold.

I’ve been following the China vendors’ prices on WeChat. The ring below is an 2ct, GRS PBR (hmm) unheated Mozambique ruby. The price is CNY158,000, slightly less than USD 22K.IMG_0907.jpeg
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I honestly didn’t even inquire about any Rubies while I was at the show. I walked by the cases and I didn’t see anything that looked interesting to me.

I lose interest as soon as I see a stone with a window and well, you know how Rubies are… I didn’t look closely, but it looked like almost all of them were windowed.

Almost everything I did see however was Mozambique material.

I’m sure somebody had Burmese rubies somewhere, but the supplies is quite small.
 
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Dr_Diesel said:
I honestly didn’t even inquire about any Rubies while I was at the show. I walked by the cases and I didn’t see anything that looked interesting to me.

I lose interest as soon as I see a stone with a window and well, you know how Rubies are… I didn’t look closely, but it looked like almost all of them were windowed.
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Same... dealers told me I was crazy to pass up certain windowed stones. I persevered and found one without, but it was quite a frustrating journey. I hated ruby shopping, and I'm glad it's over. I can't afford anything better. :lol:
 
I am learning more about how prices are manipulated by (1) The certificate business and (2) Price standards set by auction houses. Fair warning here: This is not for the faint of heart.

#1 CERTIFICATES: I won't go too much into the whole certificate business, but it is heavily co-opted. The more certificate coupons a vendor buys, the higher the color grades their stones get. Everything at the show was certified "Pigeon Blood*" or "Royal Blue" yet very few of the stones actually met the visual standards implied by such labels. I've been talking to a number of people in the trade about it and color grading by many labs** (particularly those labs with a strong market influence) is.....well.... I will just say that experienced eyes are far more important than certificates when it comes to color. The market is, in part, driven up by unscrupulous (or uneducated/inexperienced) sellers who work with buyers who have little experience and rely on the certificates to make their choices.

#2 AUCTION HOUSES: Now this is both fascinating and a little creepy (IMO), but it makes a lot of sense. If I am selling paintings of an unknown artist at an auction house, and they are only fetching $200-$300/piece, I may begin buying back those paintings at the auction for $5000-$6000. As I do this, I accomplish 2 things: First, I show the world that my company is profitable and this can influence stock value. Second, I have created A PUBLISHED STANDARD that creates a tangible reference point for what this artist's paintings are "worth" - and thus what people expect to pay and are willing to pay.

This scenario is pulled from a real-life example. The effect of the tactic was that, 2-3 years after the seller started buying back his or her own paintings, that previously unknown artist's paintings were reliably selling at auction for $2000-$3000. After all, wouldn't it be great to pay only $3,000 for a painting that just sold at auction 2 years ago for $5,000?

My understanding is that buying back one's own goods at auctions is commonplace for many of the large "brands" in the high-end jewelry and gemstone world (as well as other secors).

....Lot's to ponder here, but I am learning that the factors influencing price changes are manifold and not necessarily what I would have imagined in my consumer's mind. I can't say I like the picture that I am painting, but it is what I am learning from people who are closer to that universe than I am and thought I would pass that knowledge on to our PS family.

*My Mozambique ruby from Mugloto is a gorgeous, vivid dark red color. I love it and would have bought it regardless of what the certificate says. It was named "Pigeon Blood" color by the issuing lab however and it made me kind of smirk. I've seen true Pigeon Blood color and it's really only seen in Mogok rubies. The Mugloto ruby is a spectacular color, but it simply isn't pigeon blood. I won't go into what defines pigeon blood here for the sake of brevity, but I will say that it involves a bit of pleochroism in which the C-axis shows a bit of purple color. This factor creates a complexity and dimensionality to the color that stones from other origins, while beautiful in their own right, simply do not have. ​
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**There ARE some notable exceptions to this kind of co-opting. Labs like AGL in New York have strong objective standards, but they also have little market influence. ​

​
 
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Thanks for sharing ! I am not that surprised about the part on labs unfortunately... Your revelation on some auction houses strategies is shocking !
 
Dr_Diesel said:
I honestly didn’t even inquire about any Rubies while I was at the show. I walked by the cases and I didn’t see anything that looked interesting to me.

I lose interest as soon as I see a stone with a window and well, you know how Rubies are… I didn’t look closely, but it looked like almost all of them were windowed.

Almost everything I did see however was Mozambique material.

I’m sure somebody had Burmese rubies somewhere, but the supplies is quite small.
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Thank you , @Dr_Diesel and @Autumn in New England.
That sounds bleak. I suppose it will be similar story at the Hong Kong gem show which starts tomorrow. Two friends will be sending me updates from there!
One might have expected it to drop when China’s economy slowed. The reverse has happened because gems and gold are now seen as a good way to store wealth. With the stock and property markets not performing as well as before, people have turned to gems. The outlay is also less than for a house, so more people can take part.

Peridot has enjoyed a surge because the China company Fuli peridot has effectively marketed it as a “high class” stone. Turquoise has always been a favourite of Chinese. It is listed in the Jade Encyclopedia as a stone associated with Jade. Again. it was a marketing triumph for turquoise with a beguiling name, Sleeping Beauty . The China market has only in the last decade or so been introduced to stones other than the big four, so I expect this surge to continue for a while more.
 
Crimson said:
Thank you , @Dr_Diesel and @Autumn in New England.
That sounds bleak. I suppose it will be similar story at the Hong Kong gem show which starts tomorrow. Two friends will be sending me updates from there!
One might have expected it to drop when China’s economy slowed. The reverse has happened because gems and gold are now seen as a good way to store wealth. With the stock and property markets not performing as well as before, people have turned to gems. The outlay is also less than for a house, so more people can take part.

Peridot has enjoyed a surge because the China company Fuli peridot has effectively marketed it as a “high class” stone. Turquoise has always been a favourite of Chinese. It is listed in the Jade Encyclopedia as a stone associated with Jade. Again. it was a marketing triumph for turquoise with a beguiling name, Sleeping Beauty . The China market has only in the last decade or so been introduced to stones other than the big four, so I expect this surge to continue for a while more.
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Thank you for the insight, my friend!
 
Most rubies I’ve seen for sale classed as being “pigeon blood red” however to my eye they all look to be different hues and tones.
If they are different, how can they be the same?
 
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