Is a knot on a diamond pavilion a concern?

[Kay_76]

I had purchased the below diamond and I am now questioning if the knot on the pavilion would be durability concern/issue. I'm still under my 30 day return period. Please advise

1.30 Carat round diamond

1.30 Carat round diamond

www.jamesallen.com

 

[sledge]

That is an SI2 stone with GRADE SETTING inclusion of a knot that is extremely large for the stone. And it has a second smaller knot to boot.

@Rockdiamond this has you written all over it.

I don't know your situation and I mean this as respectful as possible, but I would be returning as quickly as I could and replacing with a stone without those issues. Sorry.

 

[RunningwithScissors]

At a minimum, for me, it would not be mind clean.

 

[Diamond Girl 21]

I wouldn't purchase a diamond with a knot. I would definitely return it.

 

[Rockdiamond]

Man- I'd never buy a diamond with a knot in it ( from another vendor...now, if we had it....lol)

Seriously- I totally understand the hesitation, when buying from an online database.
Generally speaking- it's not likely the knot will cause any issues whatsoever....but again, I would be buying a diamond that was right in front of me. For an online purchase- from a "virtual" site, I get why caution is being advised.

 

[Kay_76]

That is an SI2 stone with GRADE SETTING inclusion of a knot that is extremely large for the stone. And it has a second smaller knot to boot.

@Rockdiamond this has you written all over it.

I don't know your situation and I mean this as respectful as possible, but I would be returning as quickly as I could and replacing with a stone without those issues. Sorry.

Thanks for your honest feedback. I decided to do something nice for myself and upgrade my diamond. My budget is flexible. Could you please help me understand... Is the knot a durability or appearance concern?

 

[DejaWiz]

I'm counting five knots, two indented naturals, and a bunch of feathers (many of which are out at the girdle)...I have durability concerns with this one.

 

[lovedogs]

I definitely have durability concerns with such a large knot and the SI2 designation. I would absolutely return and find an alternative

 

[sledge]

Man- I'd never buy a diamond with a knot in it ( from another vendor...now, if we had it....lol)

Seriously- I totally understand the hesitation, when buying from an online database.
Generally speaking- it's not likely the knot will cause any issues whatsoever....but again, I would be buying a diamond that was right in front of me. For an online purchase- from a "virtual" site, I get why caution is being advised.

Good to see you! You know I was just busting your chops because you tend to like SI2’s and we’ve debated this knot issue before.

Thanks for your honest feedback. I decided to do something nice for myself and upgrade my diamond. My budget is flexible. Could you please help me understand... Is the knot a durability or appearance concern?

You’re welcome.

Unfortunately I do think it’s a durability concern so I wouldn’t mess with it personally. I hate to say that because I know so much time, energy and emotion goes into these sort of projects but shooting you straight….this is what I’d hope someone else would tell me if I were in your shoes.

At best….it’s very risky. So with great risk we have to get great reward. For me that means I get such a great price on that stone the police harass me thinking I stole it. I doubt your price was that good so I’d bite the bullet and make a new choice and treat this as a learning and growth opportunity.

Let us know how we can help you move forward.

 

[Karl_K]

A knot is a hole in the diamond plugged with a crystal if the crystal comes out you have a huge cavity and the potentual for an i1/i2 or even lower grade and its eye visible once it fills with gunk.

 

[Slickk]

Good to see you! You know I was just busting your chops because you tend to like SI2’s and we’ve debated this knot issue before.



You’re welcome.

Unfortunately I do think it’s a durability concern so I wouldn’t mess with it personally. I hate to say that because I know so much time, energy and emotion goes into these sort of projects but shooting you straight….this is what I’d hope someone else would tell me if I were in your shoes.

At best….it’s very risky. So with great risk we have to get great reward. For me that means I get such a great price on that stone the police harass me thinking I stole it. I doubt your price was that good so I’d bite the bullet and make a new choice and treat this as a learning and growth opportunity.

Let us know how we can help you move forward.

Sorry, I have nothing to add to the conversation, but it’s so so nice to see you back @sledge . I always enjoy your knowledgeable posts and friendly banter!! Welcome back.

@Kay_76 you have gotten a few of the ‘heavy weights’ on diamond characteristics weighing in on your thread. Very lucky and I’d definitely follow their advice. Let Pricescope help you find an amazing stone. Good luck!!

 

[Kim N]

Thanks for your honest feedback. I decided to do something nice for myself and upgrade my diamond. My budget is flexible. Could you please help me understand... Is the knot a durability or appearance concern?

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Diamond | 1.462 ct I SI1 A CUT ABOVE® Hearts and Arrows Super Ideal Round Cut Loose Diamond AGS Certified | 4473428

This Whiteflash A CUT ABOVE® super ideal cut hearts and arrows 1.462 carat I color SI1 clarity loose diamond is graded by the American Gem Society (AGS) Laboratories. | 4473428

www.whiteflash.com

 

[Kay_76]

Good to see you! You know I was just busting your chops because you tend to like SI2’s and we’ve debated this knot issue before.



You’re welcome.

Unfortunately I do think it’s a durability concern so I wouldn’t mess with it personally. I hate to say that because I know so much time, energy and emotion goes into these sort of projects but shooting you straight….this is what I’d hope someone else would tell me if I were in your shoes.

At best….it’s very risky. So with great risk we have to get great reward. For me that means I get such a great price on that stone the police harass me thinking I stole it. I doubt your price was that good so I’d bite the bullet and make a new choice and treat this as a learning and growth opportunity.

Let us know how we can help you move forward.

Thanks again! Visually speaking, it looked like a great S12 diamond, but I was questioning if it was too good to be true. The diamond will not ship till Feb 16th since they are waiting on the new setting. So it just a call to customer service to cancel my order. I'll continue searching, there's no rush... On a side note, is this site reliable for Diamond Price and Quality checks? https://www.stonealgo.com/diamond-details?

 

[DejaWiz]

Thanks again! Visually speaking, it looked like a great S12 diamond, but I was questioning if it was too good to be true. The diamond will not ship till Feb 16th since they are waiting on the new setting. So it just a call to customer service to cancel my order. I'll continue searching, there's no rush... On a side note, is this site reliable for Diamond Price and Quality checks? https://www.stonealgo.com/diamond-details?

StoneAlgo can give you a great baseline for narrowing down a selection of viable candidates, but each diamond will still need to be scrutinized for overall cut precision and optical performance.
Be sure to search for the same diamonds that catch your eye on other sites such as Ritani, Adiamor, and Frank Darling so you can compare pricing and customer perks (if any).

 

[Rockdiamond]

Karl- or others....have you heard of many cases of the sort of catastrophic failure Karl described?
I'm asking just for $hits and giggles- we all agree that when shopping in the virtual world, any little bump in the road is a reason to move on.
But I've never seen the sort of thing Karl described.

In terms of the number of knots in an SI2, GIA graded diamond.
Wacky as it might sound, more is better.
It means that each one is less significant.
As far as knots in general:
Let's use a real estate analogy. If you're looking for a condo in a complex, make sure every single box is checked.
If you want an exotic cabin on the beach- or in the woods...you'd accept certain aspects which you would not in the condo deal.
If someone is searching for a round brilliant diamond, between .01 and ...say about 5carats, that's equivalent to the condo in my analogy.
The selection of round brilliant diamonds and vendors is so vast that it makes sense to eliminate candidates based on anything that makes you uncomfortable.
But say you're looking for a Fancy Pink ( for example).
You're going to want the best possible color- even if a stone has clarity characteristics that would be undesirable in that round brilliant.
I don't believe a knot in a GIA graded SI2 poses a durability risk . In pretty much all cases.
Carry on.

 

[MissGotRocks]

I hear you @Rockdiamond, but in this case with a round brilliant of this size, why not err on the side of caution? There should be a good variety of alternatives in this size. I vote return!

 

[Karl_K]

Hey David,
I have seen the aftermath of a crystal coming out of a knot. Went from a eyeclean vs2 to having an eye visible inclusion.
I cant say how common it is but it happens.
If a diamond is super special I would consider the risk vs reward but a mrb not so much.

 

[sledge]

Thanks again! Visually speaking, it looked like a great S12 diamond, but I was questioning if it was too good to be true. The diamond will not ship till Feb 16th since they are waiting on the new setting. So it just a call to customer service to cancel my order. I'll continue searching, there's no rush... On a side note, is this site reliable for Diamond Price and Quality checks? https://www.stonealgo.com/diamond-details?

I agree with @DejaWiz that StoneAlgo can be used as an elimination tool of sorts but should not be trusted to make the final decision.

Without getting terribly nerdy on you, the algorithm they utilize to provide a cut grade is still using data from the various lab reports to make a judgment call on cut quality. The fallacy in this is the lab reports show us a single value for crown, pavilion, etc. In reality a round diamond has 57 facets, 8 of which are crown angles and another 8 which are pavilion angles.

So how does 8 become 1? It depends on the lab but in the case of GIA, they take the 8 actual values and average them. But GIA also performs a second step (which many here dislike) that rounds pavilions to the nearest 0.10 degree and crowns to the nearest 0.50 degree. AGS (before becoming defunct) averaged the values but skipped the rounding.

The latter isn’t perfect but IMO more accurate than performing the additional rounding functionality. Obviously the best is having all actual values with no condensing or manipulating of the data, but few vendors offer that. It’s called a Sarine report.

To further complicate this it’s possible the single values provided on the lab report provide reasonable assurance the stone has proper proportions for maximum light return. But it’s not looking at how the 8 actual crown values does or doesn’t play nice in conjunction with the 8 actual pavilions. Some combos may work and others may not.

We have a similar tool here called the Holloway Cut Advisor (HCA). It makes similar assumptions and predicts potential cut quality. It has the same weakness…it relies on lab data which by itself isn’t perfect.

And we haven’t discussed other details like symmetry, brillianteering, etc. All these elements play into cut quality and none of those things are being considered.

I’m not knocking StoneAlgo but warning that additional analysis is needed that they can’t provide from a lab report.

 

[sledge]

Hey @Rockdiamond lets put things in perspective.

1. This stone has a massive knot and some smaller knots. Not sure the 5 is better than 1 holds true when one is the size of Texas, relative to the stone. Otherwise I’m with you that more inclusions mean less severe.

2. How many of our trade is selling SI2 stones with a similar setup to this? My guess is very, very few. And I think that’s great because that means better quality for the consumer. It also likely means a smaller pool of crazy stories about knots that fall out over time. So would not having many crazy stories correlate to knots not being problematic or pinpoint there are less problems when dealers focus on higher quality stones? No offense to JA, but I don’t see them actively participating here. I do see other smaller & higher end shops doing so which I’m sure doesn’t see nearly as much crazy as JA does due to their size and mall store affiliations.

3. Sure, if you are searching for a hot pink elephant with lime green stripes then maybe you put up with some crazy. But that’s not really the case here.

 

[sledge]

Sorry, I have nothing to add to the conversation, but it’s so so nice to see you back @sledge . I always enjoy your knowledgeable posts and friendly banter!! Welcome back.

Thank you for the sweet words and welcome back. I’ve really missed talking diamonds and our “little” community of awesome people like yourself. It brings me joy to help others so I am very grateful I get to participate in this amazing community.

 

[Rockdiamond]

Two issues-
1-the specific diamond the op is asking about. I have no comment on that aspect. I’m not allowed to comment on a stone being offered for sale as a trade member. In general, I understand why internet shoppers avoid any sort of consideration, such as feathers, knots,etc…and don’t disagree. Hence, the advice given here by the consumer assisting op is sound.

It also likely means a smaller pool of crazy stories about knots that fall out over time.

2- the other issue is knots in general.
I've dealt with a lot of really imperfect goods over the years. I've never seen a stone exhibit damage because a crystal fell out of a knot. And never the sort of thing Karl describes. And I'm talking about really imperfect goods- I57, as opposed to SI2.
The punishment suffered by a diamond during the cutting process is exponentially greater than people can do while wearing it.
Of course, diamonds do break while being worn. Hit it just the right way, with the right pressure and you can damage a diamond. But even in these cases, it's highly unlikely that an imperfection ( knot, crystal, feather,etc) has anything to do with the damage. Flawless stones break under the right circumstances.
If other people have experienced knots falling out of diamonds, I'd be very interested to learn more.

 

[Kay_76]

StoneAlgo can give you a great baseline for narrowing down a selection of viable candidates, but each diamond will still need to be scrutinized for overall cut precision and optical performance.
Be sure to search for the same diamonds that catch your eye on other sites such as Ritani, Adiamor, and Frank Darling so you can compare pricing and customer perks (if any).

Will do! Thank you!