Is it possible to find a H&A ideal stone with EGL cert?

[oceanbeach]

EGL (US or non-US) certified diamonds are priced much lower than AGS or GIA certified diamonds. Now I''m wondering if it is possible to find a H&A ideal stone with EGL cert. ...and if so, which vendor will be able to search it for me?

Has anyone done this before? If so, using which vendor?
I donft care about having a diamond which is certified by AGS or GIA; all I care about is getting a beautiful H&A stone. If I were to go with EGL stone, then I will just bring up one or two grades for color and clarity from what I would go for for AGS or GIA certified stone.

Thanks,

 

[JulieN]

It doesn''t make sense, supply side, to do that.

 

[JohnQuixote]

To elaborate, here is a post from a prior thread:

Date: 4/7/2006 9:01:24 AM
Author: denverappraiser

The pedigree of the lab is not what makes one stone more or less lovely than another. The lab client was the dealer or the cutter and the reason they bought the report was to help them sell their stone better. The usual reason consumers insist on it to maximize the chances that they will get what they expect with their purchase. These are all fine reasons, but they are not entirely aligned. As I’m sure you know, all SI1’s are not the same.
As a rule, the tendency of customers to discriminate in favor of GIA and AGS grading over their various competitors has several major market affects:

1) Cutters and dealers who are trying to maximize their profits (which is all of them) will choose their labs strategically. The decision is not necessarily being made with the objective of providing you with the most accurate shopping information.

2) ‘Borderline’ stones, tend to go to the labs with more liberal grading policies.

3) Buyers are more tolerant of variations with the second tier labs. A ‘certificate’ that is off by a grade or 2 is much more acceptable from some labs than others. This can be useful to the dealers. Many will describe this as a feature because you get a report with a higher grade on it for the same or less money.

4) Most GIA and AGS grading reports come with a cut grade where most EGL reports do not. Dealers may not wish to be advertising this particular feature.

5) The ‘best’ stones, meaning the ones that the dealer hopes to sell for a premium price because of attributes other than color and clarity, tend to go to the higher status labs. Stones where the lab reported color and clarity are the primary sales characteristics tend to go to the less expensive and/or more lenient labs.

6) Cutters and dealers have access to many different markets and they are not all the same. Certain marketplaces are conducive to presenting stones as commodities while others involve more specialized marketing. The path of a stone from the mine to you was not chosen randomly and it wasn’t chosen by you. This choice is being made by some clever people who are working on razor thin profit margins that can vary considerably depending on the results. If they think they can make more money with that particular stone by sending it to a different lab and using a different retailer, there’s a pretty good chance that this is what they’ll do.

So what’s a sensible customer to do? Buy diamonds, not paper. Use the lab documentation to support or refute the expert advice from your dealer, not as a substitute for it. Choose your dealer first, then the diamond, not the other way around.
Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ISA NAJA
Professional Appraisals in Denver

(Neil didn't make it in this business on his good looks alone)

 

[He Scores]

Also, it''s more of a possibility if the stone is an SI/3 or lower. It''s possible then to have a fine make with no cert at all!



Bill Bray
Diamond Cutter

 

[zikronix]

i was actully told by an appraiser that most egl usa certs are considered counterfit or void becuase of a disagreement between EGL USA/Cananda and EGL europe. The four or five egl labs in the us and canada do things different...and have been known to take bribes. Ive actully heard this from 3 people. and Ive also heard that goverentment has gotten involved with egl usa and there shenangains Now I dont know how true this is. but everything ive seen is that If I was going to buy an egl stone that it would be europe never usa because you might as well buy an uncertified stone.

 

[WinkHPD]

Date: 6/14/2006 9:19:36 PM
Author: zikronix
i was actully told by an appraiser that most egl usa certs are considered counterfit or void becuase of a disagreement between EGL USA/Cananda and EGL europe. The four or five egl labs in the us and canada do things different...and have been known to take bribes. Ive actully heard this from 3 people. and Ive also heard that goverentment has gotten involved with egl usa and there shenangains Now I dont know how true this is. but everything ive seen is that If I was going to buy an egl stone that it would be europe never usa because you might as well buy an uncertified stone.

I do not like EGL, I do not like EGL, BUT, I would never dream to spout such drivel unless I personally knew it was true, not second or third hand "I heard so and so say". In addition to being libelous and very probably actionable, I do not believe it to be true. EGL USA actually has a much better reputation in the US trade than EGL Europe or EGL Israel will ever have.

I have had too many problems with their certs and no longer buy stones using them, but I am actively involved in the trade and I have NOT heard the aspersions that you are making from any one that I deem credible. I did not hear it in Vegas, I did not hear it on Polygon, I did not hear it here and I did not hear it there, I did not hear it anywhere.

Wink in the hat

 

[WinkHPD]

Oh, and yes, it is possible to find an ideal stone with H&A cutting, just use your friendly neighborhood idealscope to separate the wheat from the chaff. And while it will be cheaper than a similar stone with an AGS cert, you can be pretty sure you are getting what you are paying for, not the bargain you think you are getting.

Wink

 

[Gypsy]

Date: 6/14/2006 9:19:36 PM
Author: zikronix
i was actully told by an appraiser that most egl usa certs are considered counterfit or void becuase of a disagreement between EGL USA/Cananda and EGL europe. The four or five egl labs in the us and canada do things different...and have been known to take bribes. Ive actully heard this from 3 people. and Ive also heard that goverentment has gotten involved with egl usa and there shenangains Now I dont know how true this is. but everything ive seen is that If I was going to buy an egl stone that it would be europe never usa because you might as well buy an uncertified stone.

Dr. Seuss meet Dr. Wink.

That was quite witty, Wink. I have to say I''m impressed.

 

[zikronix]

hey i never said it was true..thats just what i heard...if its not true that great...i also think i heard some one say that on these forums.

 

[denverappraiser]

Date: 6/14/2006 9:19:36 PM
Author: zikronix
i was actully told by an appraiser that most egl usa certs are considered counterfit or void becuase of a disagreement between EGL USA/Cananda and EGL europe. The four or five egl labs in the us and canada do things different...and have been known to take bribes. Ive actully heard this from 3 people. and Ive also heard that goverentment has gotten involved with egl usa and there shenangains Now I dont know how true this is. but everything ive seen is that If I was going to buy an egl stone that it would be europe never usa because you might as well buy an uncertified stone.

EGL International and EGL-USA are two separate companies and they do things slightly differently. This part it true. It's also correct that there's a legal battle going on over the use of the trademark 'EGL', that there has been some nasty correspondence between them, that the issue has been in court for years, and there have been various attempts to get US Customs to declare various things ‘counterfeit’ because they are treading on trademark laws (which is what makes a product legally a counterfeit). Currently I believe its USA trying to get customs to block International from selling in the US, not the other way around but there is probably a similar issue in the European courts. I'm not in the loop and mostly I'm not all that interested so I haven't heard how it's progressing.

The right of EGL-USA to use the term ‘EGL’ in their name and that cool round logo to identify themselves is a subject of great interest in certain circles but it has nothing to do with the accuracy or reliability of their reports or those of EGL International. Whether their opinions are useful shopping tools or you would be better with an 'uncertified' stone has been the subject of many many discussions here but the official legal status of the various companies has very little to do with it.

Neil Beaty
GG(IGA) ISA NAJA
Professional Appraisals in Denver

 

[oceanbeach]

Date: 6/15/2006 12:27:47 AM
Author: Wink
Oh, and yes, it is possible to find an ideal stone with H&A cutting, just use your friendly neighborhood idealscope to separate the wheat from the chaff. And while it will be cheaper than a similar stone with an AGS cert, you can be pretty sure you are getting what you are paying for, not the bargain you think you are getting.

Wink

Hi Wink, thanks for your response. When cutter has a nice H&A stone, why wouldn''t they send the stone to AGS or GIA, but instead send it to EGL? Obviously they can charge much more for a stone with AGS or GIA cert... ????
Thanks!

 

[JulieN]

oceanbeach, I''ll let Wink answer the question you asked him, but I will say that Wink has some PGS graded H&A stones; maybe he has one that''s what you''re looking for?

 

[LAJennifer]

What about the Natalie K "ideal cut" stones? They have EGL certs.

 

[WinkHPD]

Date: 6/15/2006 5:28:10 PM
Author: oceanbeach

Date: 6/15/2006 12:27:47 AM
Author: Wink
Oh, and yes, it is possible to find an ideal stone with H&A cutting, just use your friendly neighborhood idealscope to separate the wheat from the chaff. And while it will be cheaper than a similar stone with an AGS cert, you can be pretty sure you are getting what you are paying for, not the bargain you think you are getting.

Wink

Hi Wink, thanks for your response. When cutter has a nice H&A stone, why wouldn''t they send the stone to AGS or GIA, but instead send it to EGL? Obviously they can charge much more for a stone with AGS or GIA cert... ????
Thanks!

The answer was implied in my answer, especially with EGL Europe or Israel. If I send a stone to AGS I might get a G-SI1 grade. If I send the same stone to EGL I might get an E or an F VS1 or VS2 grade. The difference in price (notice I said price, not value) is tremendous, even after the discount for the substandard paper, which in my opinion is not properly discounted.

As for the comment on PGS papered diamonds, yes, I still have a few of them. PGS is pretty well accepted by the trade, but not too well known with the consumer so they are hard to sell, even at lower prices. I bought a large parcel of very well cut PGS stones, but no longer continue to buy them as the sell through is too low. I am now getting the same stones papered by GIA and the sell through is about 2 or 3 times what it is with PGS although in my personal opinion the grading is equal. We had several stones papered by either GIA or AGS when we got the PGS stones, and used the newer papers, all those stones are long gone. Of the stones we repapered one had a one grade higher color grade and one had a one grade lower clarity grade. (We won one, we lost one, and the others all broke even.) This is pretty much in keeping with the grading study that Leonid and Gary did a year or two ago when they discovered that AGS, GIA and EGL USA were all within a grade of each other and none of them agreed on every stone. (working from memory, but I believe that to be a correct statement.)

I have a great deal of respect for PGS and it makes my mind crazy that people sell inferior paper such as EGL Europe or Israel or IGI for higher prices than PGS. Still, my main favorite lab is AGS, and I look forward to the day when I can again say that I really like the work that GIA is doing on cut grading. I want there to be two, three or even four great labs out there so that the public is well served rather than one or two really good labs and a bunch of lower quality labs that those who have stones that wont make the grade use to put one over on the uneducated

Wink

 

[oceanbeach]

Wink, thanks for your anwer!

 

[oceanbeach]

Date: 6/16/2006 5:12:04 PM
Author: LAJennifer
What about the Natalie K ''ideal cut'' stones? They have EGL certs.

LAJennifer, thanks. I checked its website, but it seems that I can''t search diamond if I am not a retailer/wholesalers...
I may stop by their retailer in my city. : )